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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

 
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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/25/2012 11:53:34 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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That is not going to go over well. You may need to give GreyJoy more than a few beers to soften this blow to the Allied cause. Nicely done.

Did he just have too many fighters set to LRCAP the amphibious landings, weakening the CAP over his TF's?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 12:06:06 AM   
vicberg

 

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OMG.  What an epic game.  My guess is that next turn you will annhilate everything that's left.  Everything he has still afloat is probably limping for base.  WOW. 

With the KB intact, this changes everything.  Stay away from Hokkaido and the 5000 planes, but now you can NAIL his supply fleets.  Also, you can now pretty much denude the rest of Japan and throw everything into the North and kick him back out.  He CAN'T invade further than his land based CAP. From Tokyo, west, throw everything you got into the North.  Smash him now. 

He definately overextended himself.   He had overwhelming power.  Why push it?  Now he has some respect for Japanese Air, even in 44. 

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 2:54:05 AM   
DTurtle

 

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Well, if you look at the key raid, he had 1200 fighters on CAP vs 270 bombers and 470 escorts.

230 bombers made an attack run scoring 31 hits.

So it wasn't a problem of CAP not being there, but simply being ineffective.


< Message edited by DTurtle -- 1/26/2012 3:07:14 AM >

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Post #: 393
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 3:41:45 AM   
Miller


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I saw it mentioned elsewhere on the forum that any CAP, no matter what its size will only make 200 firing passes in a single phase........so assume that if 400 bombers attack at one time at least half are guaranteed to get through. I cant find the thread that states this however, can anyone post a link to it?

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Post #: 394
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 3:58:56 AM   
vicberg

 

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That's a design flaw then, if true.  Can't make an artificial limit like that.  The game breaks down in large numbers. 

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Post #: 395
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:28:39 AM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

That's a design flaw then, if true.  Can't make an artificial limit like that.  The game breaks down in large numbers. 


That's what I noticed and reported with the bomber raids. I could have 500-600 fighters and it didn't matter - most didn't fight. It's all about swamping the CAP with the largest raid possible.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 396
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:30:18 AM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

OMG.  What an epic game.  My guess is that next turn you will annhilate everything that's left.  Everything he has still afloat is probably limping for base.  WOW. 

With the KB intact, this changes everything.  Stay away from Hokkaido and the 5000 planes, but now you can NAIL his supply fleets.  Also, you can now pretty much denude the rest of Japan and throw everything into the North and kick him back out.  He CAN'T invade further than his land based CAP. From Tokyo, west, throw everything you got into the North.  Smash him now. 

He definately overextended himself.   He had overwhelming power.  Why push it?  Now he has some respect for Japanese Air, even in 44. 


I was thinking about this... yes I probably have carrier superiority now until mid-1945 or so... if I stay out of range of his LBA, I can probably raid his supply lines rather well. Only real danger is allied subs. I need a few turns to reorganize, but then I'll strongly consider this possibility.

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Post #: 397
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:34:02 AM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

OMG.  What an epic game.  My guess is that next turn you will annhilate everything that's left.  Everything he has still afloat is probably limping for base.  WOW. 

With the KB intact, this changes everything.  Stay away from Hokkaido and the 5000 planes, but now you can NAIL his supply fleets.  Also, you can now pretty much denude the rest of Japan and throw everything into the North and kick him back out.  He CAN'T invade further than his land based CAP. From Tokyo, west, throw everything you got into the North.  Smash him now. 

He definately overextended himself.   He had overwhelming power.  Why push it?  Now he has some respect for Japanese Air, even in 44. 


Nah, he's just gonna pull right back to Hakkodate in the middle of the night.

I think what I need to do now is cut off and suppress Sadogashima with bombers. I think it's only level 1-2 airfield. If I can bomb it every turn, I can keep it supressed and make him have to supply it. This might be worth sending in the remaining battleships for.

Meanwhile. with not only most of his CVEs gone, but his CVs in bad shape, I really don;t have to worry about much beyond his CAP range. I think this will open lots of raiding opportunities, and I can probably afford to move some more troops home to Japan.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 398
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:41:20 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

That's a design flaw then, if true.  Can't make an artificial limit like that.  The game breaks down in large numbers. 


That's what I noticed and reported with the bomber raids. I could have 500-600 fighters and it didn't matter - most didn't fight. It's all about swamping the CAP with the largest raid possible.

Yeah. Bummer. Of course, GreyJoy benefited from these model restrictions for some time too. Oh well, what's good for the goose and all that...

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:43:12 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

Well, if you look at the key raid, he had 1200 fighters on CAP vs 270 bombers and 470 escorts.

230 bombers made an attack run scoring 31 hits.

So it wasn't a problem of CAP not being there, but simply being ineffective.


Guys, I'm not sure it's crystal clear from looking at the Combat Report the number of fighters on CAP versus bombers. Let's not give anything away, shall we? Just a reminder to please observe operational secrecy.

Thanks.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:44:13 AM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

How is your HI reserve and the general situation of fuel,oil,resources and supply if I might ask ?


Fairly healthy I'd say (most in Japan):

HI ~ 1.8 million
Fuel ~ 7.7 million
Oil ~ 3 million
Supply ~ 5.5 million
Resources ?? but lots in home islands (generally you don't run out if you bring them home unless really blockaded).

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 10:34:50 AM   
DTurtle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

Well, if you look at the key raid, he had 1200 fighters on CAP vs 270 bombers and 470 escorts.

230 bombers made an attack run scoring 31 hits.

So it wasn't a problem of CAP not being there, but simply being ineffective.


Guys, I'm not sure it's crystal clear from looking at the Combat Report the number of fighters on CAP versus bombers. Let's not give anything away, shall we? Just a reminder to please observe operational secrecy.

Thanks.


I simply counted the planes that appeared in the combat report posted here. Nothing else went into my statement.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 12:35:36 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Ah thank you. Your industry looks still very solid indeed.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 2:44:56 PM   
Nemo121


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I'll comment on Rader's comment about swamping the CAP.

I know there's a lot of discussion right now about this with a lot of people unsure about what matters and what doesn't> I think one key point though is that those players who have concluded that swamping CAP pretty much negates its ability to intercept bombers are the people having results. I think that says a lot.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 4:07:39 PM   
Bluebook

 

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"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 5:51:57 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.

Rader used the exact same game engine that GreyJoy has been using in CAP over Hokkaido and in support of his uber-massive Honshu invasion fleets. GJ has slaughtered thousands in rader's incoming strikes-sometimes nearing 100%-and no one bats an eye about this 'exploit'.

GreyJoy has made some critical mistakes and erroneous assumptions that allowed rader to wipe out much of his CV fleet. This development will change the outcome of the game.

So, they're using the same 'exploit', same game engine. Accept that there are different possible outcomes on this even playing field.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 5:58:21 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.

Rader used the exact same game engine that GreyJoy has been using in CAP over Hokkaido and in support of his uber-massive Honshu invasion fleets. GJ has slaughtered thousands in rader's incoming strikes-sometimes nearing 100%-and no one bats an eye about this 'exploit'.

GreyJoy has made some critical mistakes and erroneous assumptions that allowed rader to wipe out much of his CV fleet. This development will change the outcome of the game.

So, they're using the same 'exploit', same game engine. Accept that there are different possible outcomes on this even playing field.



sooooo two wrongful exploitations make a right? wonderful logic. I'm so proud to belong to this species

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 6:03:20 PM   
beppi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."



That comment is more than unfair. Basically that is what everyone would expect from a late war fight that the japanese players tries to do as large strikes as possible. Thats logical.

And even in Scen 1 it is easy to have a 700 planes strike. Engine is borked, now everyone knows. Think it sucks for both sides in an PBEM, currently have the same problem. So my carrier forces are inactive most of the time even with a cap of close to 1500 planes. Move in range and you lose them.


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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 6:06:48 PM   
beppi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.

Rader used the exact same game engine that GreyJoy has been using in CAP over Hokkaido and in support of his uber-massive Honshu invasion fleets. GJ has slaughtered thousands in rader's incoming strikes-sometimes nearing 100%-and no one bats an eye about this 'exploit'.

GreyJoy has made some critical mistakes and erroneous assumptions that allowed rader to wipe out much of his CV fleet. This development will change the outcome of the game.

So, they're using the same 'exploit', same game engine. Accept that there are different possible outcomes on this even playing field.


The problem is, it is not "even". Not even close. If i have a CAP problem while striking a City and the CAP only shoots down 30 bombers instead of 200 i actually start a few fires, destroy some HI and some factories. So to have an impact i still have to conduct such a strike 10 or 15 or 20 times. Cities cannot sink.

To actually sink the entire allied carrier capacity Rader only needed two times (I have no clue how many carriers actually did not sink right now i only peeked at Raders numbers). And still it is not a problem of Rader. I think he would have expect to have some serious battles, maybe sink a few carriers. But not a "strike 1 -> 30+ CVE be gone, strike two -> rest of the allied CV fleet is gone). At least for me that would have been a little bit boring.

< Message edited by beppi -- 1/26/2012 6:08:29 PM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 6:10:16 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.

Rader used the exact same game engine that GreyJoy has been using in CAP over Hokkaido and in support of his uber-massive Honshu invasion fleets. GJ has slaughtered thousands in rader's incoming strikes-sometimes nearing 100%-and no one bats an eye about this 'exploit'.

GreyJoy has made some critical mistakes and erroneous assumptions that allowed rader to wipe out much of his CV fleet. This development will change the outcome of the game.

So, they're using the same 'exploit', same game engine. Accept that there are different possible outcomes on this even playing field.



sooooo two wrongful exploitations make a right? wonderful logic. I'm so proud to belong to this species


I don't pretend to understand your reference to the species you self-identify with.

Recognizing the way the game plays and planning accordingly isn't an exploit. Your labelling of this as a "wrongful" exploit is an inappopriate assumption.

If it's an ongoing problem with gameplay, discussion about HRs (e.g., Stratosphere sweep workarounds) is reasonable. Neither player seemed to think this was a worthwhile discussion whilest GreyJoy's uber CAP was liquidating thousands of attacking Japanese aircraft. Rader never said 'boo' about it being a problem, nor did GreyJoy.

Furthermore, other than trying to get a coordinated strike (which he ultimately did), what did Rader do to 'exploit' this engine? His strike coordination (and the lack thereof for GreyJoy's CAP) was by no means a foregone conclusion.

Harvesting 'benefits' from the engine one day and then crying about it the next is illogical in the extreme. GreyJoy himself is not lamenting the engine, so what information do you have that he doesn't?

Rader pulled off an incredible victory here-probably the single greatest blow I've seen delivered to the Allies. To write this off as some 'wrongful exploit' is, itself, wrong.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 6:47:52 PM   
Bluebook

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.


Dont go there.

Im extremely sick and tired of people exploiting flaws in the game engine to achieve whatever in-game-benefit they get from that. And then to see the guy bend and twist the game-engine to the brink of breaking it and then bragging about it in his AAR? Forget it. He might aswell play against himself and stand down the entire US CV CAP...would you be equally impressed by that? After all, he is still "using the same engine"...

No, this is just wrong, on so many levels. Its good because it highlights an exploit in the game-engine, and therefore it will probably lead to a code-change. But there is nothing impressive about this. No bragging rights or reasons to feel good about oneself are awarded because one knows how to abuse the game-engine to ones own benefit.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 6:58:47 PM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

"Yay, I managed to exploit the game engine and sink alot of ships."


Very unhelpful post, Bluebook.


Dont go there.

Im extremely sick and tired of people exploiting flaws in the game engine to achieve whatever in-game-benefit they get from that. And then to see the guy bend and twist the game-engine to the brink of breaking it and then bragging about it in his AAR? Forget it. He might aswell play against himself and stand down the entire US CV CAP...would you be equally impressed by that? After all, he is still "using the same engine"...

No, this is just wrong, on so many levels. Its good because it highlights an exploit in the game-engine, and therefore it will probably lead to a code-change. But there is nothing impressive about this. No bragging rights or reasons to feel good about oneself are awarded because one knows how to abuse the game-engine to ones own benefit.


I'm going to repost part of what I posted in GJ's thread for the same reason.

This is a typical raid that GJ has been launching. By my count, that's around 800 planes.

Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 15
Liberator B.VI x 18
Mosquito FB.VI x 10
Spitfire VIII x 47
Wellington Ic x 18
Wellington B.X x 30
B-24D1 Liberator x 15
B-24J Liberator x 119
B-25D1 Mitchell x 47
B-25H Mitchell x 49
B-25J1 Mitchell x 3
B-29-1 Superfort x 110
P-38H Lightning x 10
P-38J Lightning x 3
P-39N1 Airacobra x 4
P-40N5 Warhawk x 13
P-40N26 Warhawk x 5
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 8
F4U-1A Corsair x 67
F6F-3 Hellcat x 206
F6F-5 Hellcat x 119
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 31
PB4Y-2 Privateer x 12
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 41


This was CAP over Akita,. Close to 1000 planes.

Allied aircraft
Mosquito FB.VI x 19
Spitfire VIII x 123
P-38H Lightning x 13
P-38J Lightning x 25
P-39N2 Airacobra x 12
P-39N1 Airacobra x 5
P-40N5 Warhawk x 47
P-40N26 Warhawk x 8
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 52
P-51B Mustang x 42
F4U-1A Corsair x 182
F6F-3 Hellcat x 571
F6F-5 Hellcat x 209


Both sides have been benefitting from current rules. Saying now that this strike was somehow unfair compared to everything else going on? That's a hmmm.

Please explain how suddently this is unfair when both players have been playing the same game, coordinating MASSIVE strikes???

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:01:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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It would have been much more likely/possible for the Allies to coordinate massive strikes in late 1944 than for Japan to do so.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:04:30 PM   
vicberg

 

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Around Japanese HI?  Ummm....doubtful.  Elsewhere, I'm game to discuss. 

Bluebook, you want to talk about coordination being too effective?  Sure, all for it.  Want to discuss the absurdity of basing 3000 fighters at a single airbase without coordination penalties when there aren't enough runways in the world to launch that many planes in a coordinated fasion?  All for it.   Want to imply that Radar exploited anything in light of the above raids he's had to contend with?  No way. 

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:08:00 PM   
jeffk3510


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Dan- Rader can though.. this is Scen 2 and he owns India and China...

Bluebook- I have no idea who you are, and your comment was was out of line, and Rader hasn't bragged about anything...

Hans- You just have a way of pissing off everyone, in every post, in every topic...

To me... GreyJoy made a terrible mistake, and has paid dearly for it...that is all

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 1/26/2012 7:13:44 PM >


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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:11:58 PM   
SuluSea


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Wow, some of this venom and/or comments directed at the OP in this and other threads are really a low ebb as far as the AAR section goes.

Like all AARs, games and even my own---> both sides are guilty of using advantages allowed by the developers . I don't see any charges of going outside HRs.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/26/2012 7:17:26 PM >


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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:12:13 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

How is your HI reserve and the general situation of fuel,oil,resources and supply if I might ask ?


Fairly healthy I'd say (most in Japan):

HI ~ 1.8 million
Fuel ~ 7.7 million
Oil ~ 3 million
Supply ~ 5.5 million
Resources ?? but lots in home islands (generally you don't run out if you bring them home unless really blockaded).



Really an excellent reserve. It demonstrates to me the penalty to the Allies if they are not able to interdict the oil supply until late in the game. A hypothetical question for you. Considering the date, if the Allied player were able to completely sever your oil supply tomorrow, will this sort of reserve support Japan through 1946? That is given cutting and trimming production where needed, should this be enough?

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Post #: 417
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:15:01 PM   
obvert


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Everyone can talk about whether this is fair or unfair in the tech forum now. Arguments have been made and I'm sure the players would like to get on with the game. GJ is not asking for a re-run, and he and Rader are the only ones who have any right to think about that.

I'm curious what this will mean in concrete terms for the IJ. Is this a window to exploit using the KB, or is it a breather to recoup losses and get the rest of the army back to the HI, or is there something else on the horizon?

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:20:23 PM   
vicberg

 

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Based on current game mechanics, for right or for wrong that both players have been using, GJ made a brilliant strategic choice with invading Hokkaido and he's made two poor choices in not trying to shut down the inflow of resources/fuel into Japan and his latest invasion.  His latest invasion was, in hindsight, not a good idea.  It's that simple.  Crying foul is absurd.  Personally attacking Radar is absurd. 

I guess it's the nature of the game that there's this Allied vs. Japanese mentality that comes out, especially if the Japanese get a late game victory, that causes people to cry foul or otherwise say that the game isn't historical.  Baloney.  Want to play a historical game?  End the game in 43 and see how well Japan does compared to historical because there would be NO reason to play the game past that.  WITPAE is NOT historical.  It's a game with play balance mechanisms, like it or not.  Play another game if you don't like it.  Japan rarely wins auto-victory and if they last into 45 or possibly 46, it's a pyrrhic victory at best.  Japanese players play the game because it's fun.  This Allied vs. Japan, Historical vs. A-Historical, crying foul if the japanese actually do anything in 44, has got to go.  Geez.

(in reply to jeffk3510)
Post #: 419
RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:27:26 PM   
Bluebook

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

That's a design flaw then, if true.  Can't make an artificial limit like that.  The game breaks down in large numbers. 


That's what I noticed and reported with the bomber raids. I could have 500-600 fighters and it didn't matter - most didn't fight. It's all about swamping the CAP with the largest raid possible.


In other words: you knew. And used it...

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 420
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