Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelton please)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelton please) Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelton pl... - 5/15/2011 5:42:50 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
Time for a new 41 - 45 GC. Idle hands are the devils playthings.

Starring Pelton as the Axis invaders and yours truly as the Brave Defenders of the Motherland. Server game, non-random weather, full FOW.

Turn 1. Map below before Soviet moves but after recon. The Riga gambit and the big Lvov pocket, pretty much the standard opening these days. However, some units are left in northern Courland, with port access.




Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 5:48:56 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
The Soviet response. There are actually quite a few Soviet units that can be moved. Some in Moscow MD, a few at Bryansk and Voronezh, and a number in the south. With rail movement these can be moved to suitable locations to be part of the checkerboard. The first turn, the Soviets have enormous amounts of rail movement, and no factories can be moved anyway, so its a time for railing stuff around to where you want it. (Actually, IMHO Soviet rail movement should be restricted further on turn one).

Here is the northern part of the front after Soviet moves. A couple of units have been evacuated from Courland by sea movement and landed in the northern Baltics. Also one infantry corps has been railed from the South to the Pskov line, as well as a corps from Moscow MD.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 2
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 5:50:31 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
And the southern part of the front after Soviet moves. Checkerboard all over.

With some nifty maneuvering it proves possible to open a supply route to the Lvov pocket.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 3
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 5:58:08 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 652
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 4
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:03:50 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3117
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
Looking forward to this one, good luck Tarhunnas!

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 5
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:04:49 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63


Yep, cut their supply. Forgot to mention that. And as you can see from the shot I was one hex from cutting off the panzers north of Minsk as well.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/15/2011 6:06:30 PM >

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 6
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:19:44 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
Good luck and good hunt

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 7
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:21:19 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63


That's apparently impossible to do, eh? A suicide, worthless option

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 8
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:38:44 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 652
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

His Panzers to the North of Minsk look very exposed & were you able to cut his pincer to the south of Minsk?
Manstein63


That's apparently impossible to do, eh? A suicide, worthless option


Not from that screenshot it's not but then Pelton's opening move has given Tarhunnas the opportunity & it would have been silly of him not to have taken it. Also I don't believe that I have ever said that cutting off German armoured thrusts is a worthless option & suicide. If ever I have a oppertunity to isolate panzer & motorised divisions I would also take it
Manstein63

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 9
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 6:44:02 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you

Tarhunnas could have possibly bought one vital turn here so well done. That's what any Soviet should be doing on these first turns. Luck may appear, but creating your own luck is much better... That's my thesis And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 10
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 7:00:19 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 652
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you

Tarhunnas could have possibly bought one vital turn here so well done. That's what any Soviet should be doing on these first turns. Luck may appear, but creating your own luck is much better... That's my thesis And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...


I can understand that
Manstein63

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 11
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 7:20:25 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
I am an aggressive Soviet player. If I can cut the supply of some panzers I will. And if I can counterattack I will. And as you can see from the screenshots I belive in checkerboarding well forward, while preparing positions to the rear!

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 12
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 7:35:48 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2292
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
Interesting German opening. I don't understand why he didn't even bother to try to pocket troops near Minsk. Sloppy pocket in the south as well. From his previous games, I think this opening is not up to Pelton's good standards. On top of it, Tarhunnas makes the Axis pay for nearly every mistake he made to open. I also wonder if Pelton really cares that much on the opening turn, figuring he will just bag a pile of stuff on the second turn? Still, I think he gave Tarhunnas a lot to work with in terms of units still around and not surrounded on Russian turn 1.

Good luck on this one. This should be a good match up and I am very interested to see how it goes.



(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 13
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 8:09:15 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3117
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Manstein, I was NOT thinking about you, believe me. I was being sarcastic, indeed... But NOT with you ...And given that quite many disagreed (that thread I had opened in the War Room), that's where the sarcasm comes from...


Cutting off spearheads like this is a no-brainer and I am not sure who you think you're being sarcastic with? I don't recall anyone ever saying not to cut off panzer spearheads, especially in these opening turns, because there is actually very little to lose, a handful of rifle divisions, big deal.

And I don't understand why you say that cutting them off earns Tarhunnas a turn? It is not as if they are immobile for their turn if you cut them off, because unless the German is completely incompetent or unlucky, he will be able to reopen supply as the first step in his next turn, and presto, the "cut-off" panzers are now in supply and resume their advance.

Sure it is worth doing because you force his follow-on forces to reopen supply instead of doing whatever he wanted to do with them, and because his spearhead units will lose some supply for their next turn, but I really see such "encirclements" as being of pretty limited utility (although worthwhile, because you don't have much to lose). If I'm not right, someone please correct me.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/15/2011 8:12:10 PM >

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 14
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 8:26:07 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Cutting off spearheads like this is a no-brainer and I am not sure who you think you're being sarcastic with?


Sure it is... But you will NEVER cut them off IF you are N O T... er next to Panzers in the first place... And that's the whole issue Bring forces forward etc., etc.

And to be fair, this has NOT been done a lot: the Soviets stay away from the enemy armored forces, as if this was going to save them ... ergo that's why I thought I should be opening that thread (to help other players that is). After all, Moscow and Leningrad are already in the bag so why not try something er different?

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 15
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 8:33:06 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And I don't understand why you say that cutting them off earns Tarhunnas a turn?


I forgot this, sorry. From what German players say cutting units off (especially Panzers, the units that REALLY matter) HURTS. If it didn't, then that would mean there is no difference between being isolated or in supply. And that in my opinion would be utterly irrational.

When I cut my opponent's forces off, on next turn his forces do NOT advance a lot, and that on my book is one turn in my pocket.


_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 16
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 8:38:49 PM   
76mm


Posts: 3117
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
And to be fair, this has NOT been done a lot: the Soviets stay away from the enemy armored forces, as if this was going to save them ...

Huh? I think just about everyone does this in the opening turns, it's not very controversial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
From what German players say cutting units off (especially Panzers, the units that REALLY matter) HURTS. If it didn't, then that would mean there is no difference between being isolated or in supply. And that in my opinion would be utterly irrational.

When I cut my opponent's forces off, on next turn his forces do NOT advance a lot, and that on my book is one turn in my pocket.

I have very little experience as Germans, and my Sov forces are not in the habit of creating deep penetrations, so I will have to wait to hear from some of the German players. My impression, though, is that such cut-offs are kind of irritating but not that big of a deal.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 17
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 8:58:46 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2292
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
I don't think they are as big of a deal on the Russian turn 1 simply because the panzers start with huge stockpiles of gas. Their movement ability will be down just a minor amount if surrounded, so chopping them off has immediate minimal consequences (especially in the north and center). After that however, they typically suffer a huge reduction in movement and don't necessarily get that much back, even after lines are reopened. (For sure, their combat abilities go back up, but not really on the movement from what I have seen).

I would still do it (cut the spearheads off) because I think there is still some side effects that may come into play later (not as much fuel with the division for example).

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 18
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 9:17:08 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5181
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
Yes, you're correct, Klydon. On the really first Soviet turn it's basically irrelevant. I remember I did that (my current AAR) and Alfonso told me so But after that first turn, cutting enemy units off is pure gold. It's what might make the difference and save Moscow and Leningrad. And that's a LOT.

And it's a lot of fun

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 19
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/15/2011 11:54:43 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2292
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
The other thing the Russians should be looking to really do is to tear up as many lanes of advance as possible for the German infantry. Delaying them is huge because once they show up, no Russian line is really safe from being cracked. 

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 20
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 1:40:08 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2255
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
Peltons opening against Larry was sloppy as well. It just was not taken advantage of.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 21
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:18:21 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Some comments and discussion are very welcome, but at present the majority of the AAR is taken up with discussion, and I barely played one turn. I would appreciate if extensive discussions could be redirected to other threads.

Also, it is my wish that comments be kept neutral and respectful to both sides.

That said, a word on the Soviet response on turn 1. An important issue not mentioned above is hex control. I try to keep as many hexes as possible under Soviet control, especially along major axes of advance. Even if reconverted, those hexes will all cost extra MPs for all Axis units during the entire Axis turn 2! This means 3 MPs to enter a hex instead of 1 for all but a few elite motorized units. This can add up to the infantry of AGC being one turn later at the Berezina or Dnepr, which makes a whole lot of difference! Conversely, an Axis player should not disregard the flanks and just push on. Even if the panzers recover from turn 1 isolation pretty fast (though I belive there are long term effects of one early turn on skimpy supply), it is an important issue for hex control, as isolated hexes will reconvert for free unless adjacent to an enemy unit. An axis player should try to defend the converted hexes, they are a golden bridge for the infantry to follow up on.

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 22
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:26:18 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
Overview of front after Axis turn 2 after recon but before Soviet movement.

I note the Axis strategy seems to be deep penetrations rather than securing additional pockets. I feel a frisson of fear as I see Panzers already across the river at Pskov. This will be interesting!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/16/2011 6:39:40 AM >

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 23
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 2:01:46 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2292
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
Looking like a repeat of what he did against Larry. Is that the GD regiment down south with the Rumanians?

Nice job by him of cutting rail lines into the forming Minsk pocket. He got some rail lines in the south, but the rail net is still fairly intact enough to move stuff around.

This will be a challenging turn for the Russians as they will be tempted to move industry, but it might be better to write some of that off in order to move a max number of troops around to deal with the German spearheads.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 24
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 3:31:01 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2255
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
When I brought up the fact that Peltons opening was sloppy it was not meant in a deragatory way. Pelton has his own idea of what to do and its interesting to see how is openings that dont quite fit the current "mold" still develop in a succesful manner.

Watching his play as well as how Tarhunnas reacts is going to be a very good read.

I still think his advances are much to narrow. I have a Soviet game going against a player who has a style much like Peltons and I have found it quite easy to harrass his lines of communication as well as "funnel" him where I want to go based around knots of resitance.

It is imperative that the Axis player advance somewhat broadly in my opinion making it more difficult for the Soviet player to set up roadblocks and keep him guessing.

The part of peltons style I like is applying pressure to several key factories at once making the Soviet make some hard decisions on what factories to move and when.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 25
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:50:12 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
However, No one's afraid of the big bad Panzer! If the little piglets stick together, they can give the panzer a bad fright! I had forces behind the river that could launch a deliberate attck. Counting on the 1-1 modifier to kick in here of course, but those are the rules of the game.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 26
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:52:24 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
West of Pskov after Soviet move. It proves possible to cut the panzer wurst into a number of slices. Starting their turn out of supply should hopefully dampen their ardor.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 27
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:54:02 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
And here is Byelorussia after Soviet moves. Again, panzer spearheads cut off. The landbridge carpeted and elswhere a comprehensive checkerboard.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 28
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:57:04 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12121
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

That's rather Tulliesque of you.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 29
RE: The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelto... - 5/16/2011 6:57:54 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3161
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
In the south, it is impossible to cut of the panzer thrust, or relieve the trapped comrades at Lvov. Withdrawal and carpet are the words of the day. We do manage to rout the Rumanian armored division though. Always a good warming up excercise for the RKKA!




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> The East is Red III - Pelton vs Tarhunnas (no Pelton please) Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.148