Matrix Games Forums

Command Rommels Panzers in Battle Academy!Servers UpdateThe Deal goes Fourth!Command Ops gets a Massive Update!Lost Battles AAR: Smolensk 41War in the East: Lost Battles is here!Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! Let's Play videoLost Battles Scenario Manual excerpts available!A sneak peek from Allied Corps!Harpoon 3 ANWs Free Ultimate Update!		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

So, anyone care about managing air units at all?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> So, anyone care about managing air units at all? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 2:37:44 AM   
fbs

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline 		In WitP and BoB/BTR I was always in the lookout for the aircraft types, how many aircrafts are ready, pilot experience, etc..; I could also control exactly what the units were doing, and they had big impact all around.

In WitE I have to click through 2 screens to get information about my air units, and I can't control them very much. I can't tell them to bomb a railroad or a bridge or a rail junction; can't tell them to bomb the enemy factories; I can tell them to bomb enemy units, but the effect is pretty minimal, and then I have no clue if I'll get escorts or not. I know what's their max altitude with 0.01% precision, but then again I have absolutely no control of how how aircrafts will use that altitude. I know how many aircrafts I shot down, what is nice, but I have no clue if I'm losing 10 aircrafts to shoot one of the enemy and then immediately getting 10 back. Oh, and the location of my air bases hardly matter either, given that I can fly from pretty much any forward base with no units.

I have no aces, no medals, no involvement and hardly any interest at all in my aerial units. I just put them like a big blob-thing in the back, keep some forward air bases with no aircrafts on them, and use like some sort of freak long distance artillery. I loved my elite units and elite pilots in WitP/BoB/BTR, but in WitE they are just poor bastards I leave in the kitchen.

So, anyone care enough for air units to actually pay any attention to them?


< Message edited by fbs -- 5/15/2011 2:38:54 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 5:03:28 AM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline 		I ignored them completely for a long time, but now have started to pay much more attention to them. I have also concluded that bombing units and airfields is pretty much useless, but as far as I can tell, you really need to get ground support, interdiction, and fighter intercept right, or you will pay the price.

The lack of aces and medals does not bother me at all, in fact I think it would be inappropriate to include them in a game of this scale (sorry, same for everyone's favorite, Rudel).

Even now, my air management is limited to air doctrine settings and making sure that bases are stocked with air groups with relatively low losses. I don't really worry about which units have high morale or experience, although I probably should. Another important thing is to make sure that each Sov Front has enough air bases, because by default some have 10 or so and some have zero.

Overall, however, I have serious issues with the air model in this game, especially for defenders, who have absolutely no control over how/when GS is allocated (unlike the attacker, who can turn it on/off as necessary. Also, in my experience aircraft losses seem to calculated very oddly.

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 2
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 5:25:30 AM   
cpt flam


Posts: 1106
Joined: 1/16/2011
From: caen - France
Status: offline 		every turn i look casualties & then my aircrafts in the CR
sending poor moral to reserve and puting new airgroup if necessary
as soviet you will earn guards and after even guards airbase
when choosing target to bomb the lighter range is where you can have an escort

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 3
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 11:18:57 AM   
Aditia

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 3/27/2011
Status: offline 		I find bombing units highly effective

(in reply to cpt flam)
Post #: 4
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 1:27:39 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Bombing units can yield effects, it seems to soften them up before an attack, even though the report won't show many casualties.

Bombing industry or railyards is allegedly effective, I have only tried it once or twice though, I tend to forget it.

Personally, I am interested more in pushing large armored formations around in grand maneuvres rather than micromanaging my air force, so I mostly place them a reasonable distance behind the front and expect them to do their job. Has worked fine so far!

(in reply to Aditia)
Post #: 5
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 2:23:27 PM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		I find the interface awkward. I think a more friendly interface might help.



_____________________________


Best regards

Skanvak

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 6
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 2:38:50 PM   
Aditia

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 3/27/2011
Status: offline 		You don't need to micro manage your airforce a lot really. Set doctrine as you like it, concentrate airforce where you want to be strong, done. Repeat when strategic focus shifts.

Edit: this is for ze jermans, no idea if Sov airpower is more involved

< Message edited by Aditia -- 5/15/2011 2:39:31 PM >

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 7
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 3:49:27 PM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia
I find bombing units highly effective


hmmm, any tips? What kind of units? Night bombing? Level bombers or tactical, or both? How close to the front?

(in reply to Aditia)
Post #: 8
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 4:21:10 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

You don't need to micro manage your airforce a lot really. Set doctrine as you like it, concentrate airforce where you want to be strong, done. Repeat when strategic focus shifts.

Edit: this is for ze jermans, no idea if Sov airpower is more involved



Precisely.

It's not a matter of wanting to micro-manage, but of wanting to play the air units. The way they are, we just put a big blob in the rear around where we more or less want them and leave them there.

We don't play the air units. I don't even know why we have air units at all - we could just have 4 or 5 big counters with 1,000 aircrafts each, which we put more or less where we need them, and that's it, the result would be pretty much the same.

(in reply to Aditia)
Post #: 9
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 5:33:23 PM   
Scook_99

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline 		The only unit bombing I find effective is an attack you are worried about not getting a retreat. It causes some disruption (lowers morale and raises fatigue?) so there is some tilt there.

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 10
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 5:57:06 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

The only unit bombing I find effective is an attack you are worried about not getting a retreat. It causes some disruption (lowers morale and raises fatigue?) so there is some tilt there.


Exactly. And sometimes you are very much interested in getting a retreat, like for example when you need to push back that pesky panzer regiment to open a supply route to your encircled comrades. Then I have found that a little preliminary bombing seems to smooth the path to the desired result.

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

(in reply to Scook_99)
Post #: 11
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 8:15:53 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2450
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

You don't need to micro manage your airforce a lot really. Set doctrine as you like it, concentrate airforce where you want to be strong, done. Repeat when strategic focus shifts.

Edit: this is for ze jermans, no idea if Sov airpower is more involved



Precisely.

It's not a matter of wanting to micro-manage, but of wanting to play the air units. The way they are, we just put a big blob in the rear around where we more or less want them and leave them there.

We don't play the air units. I don't even know why we have air units at all - we could just have 4 or 5 big counters with 1,000 aircrafts each, which we put more or less where we need them, and that's it, the result would be pretty much the same.



Note that that is pretty much what the AI does. We have flexibility, should we choose to use it, to make the superbase harder to overrun by dispersing it in small blobs into different heses all five hexes (or less) from the HQ

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 12
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/15/2011 8:48:01 PM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

The only unit bombing I find effective is an attack you are worried about not getting a retreat. It causes some disruption (lowers morale and raises fatigue?) so there is some tilt there.


Was not aware of this effect, noted.

(in reply to Scook_99)
Post #: 13
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 3:45:25 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 299
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs
So, anyone care enough for air units to actually pay any attention to them?


I do.

The Soviet OOB is from a current game Dec. 1941

TRANSPORTS: 11 Air Groups split between U-2 & Li-2 Eventually All upgraded to Li-2 then C-47. Supply and Para drop.

RECON: 12 Air Groups split between Pe-2R, SB-2, U-2 Eventually upgraded to Pe-2R. 3 to continue flying the SB-2, until the replacement pool runs dry.

TACTICAL BOMBERS: 74 IL-2 Air Groups. Bomb stuff close to the front. 42 U-2VS Sir Groups, Use for Partisan support.

LEVEL BOMBERS: 30 IL-4, 6 TB-3, 1 PE-8, 58 PE-2 Air Groups. Production for IL-4 and PE-2 make them the backbone of the Soviet Air force long range bombing force.

FIGHTER BOMBERS: 65 Yak-1, 3 Yak-7A, 83 LaGG-3, 11 I-16, 1 I-153, 67 Mig-3, 5 Pe- 3, 14 Hurricane IIB, 4 P-40B, 1 P40E. Total Fighter bombers air groups, 254. Fighter production is pretty awesome. Lend Lease is nice for variety. Mix and match, just don't over do the Mig-3 air groups. Production is short lived and eventually the number will have to sustain itself from the pool remaining. Try to keep same type of fighters together for consistent range.

23 Air command HQ's. 77 Airbases including 25 SAD bases and 10 VVS bases. SAD bases will disband. VVS bases will not allow Level Bombers to be based on them.

10 Fronts, 4 MD, 1 MDZ and STAVKA allow for creative attachment of the Air Force. Currently i try to attach at least 1 HQ and 4-6 Airbases per Front or MD. All excess HQ's stay with STAVKA. Knowing that the SAD bases will disband, the 10 Fronts will get most of the Airbases while the MD and MDZ will get minimal.

The soviet Air Force is really very interesting to cultivate. Much more to work with, and the perk of seeing Guards show up makes the wait worthwhile.







Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Nothing in this Life is free, that is why i'm infantry.

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 14
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 8:24:58 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		In the Russian 1941 GC, the air war is a critical aspect of the game and one in which he can score some very early and significant victories, even marginalising the German air force. This may change as the devs are now aware of what the Russians can do if they effectively micromanage their airforce.

Steps I take in a 1.03 game-

Move to reserve all combat air units under 50% morale and for fighters and bombers respectively, 50% and 45% experience.

Transport and recce units will have to operate at lower levels for some time but must do so whatever the losses. Recce of the advancing germans is particularly important, not just to know where they're heading, but to enhance interdiction of them.

Add air units from reserve when they reach the right morale/experience levels and at least 90% aircraft ready. Filters are a small help in this arduous task.

If you need interceptors, put them in IA type airfields, IL-4 and DB-3B types go to long range air bases. Recce and transports to VVS bases, mix bombers and fighter escorts in SAD airfields.

First action of every turn is to remove to reserve, air units that have fallen below the above morale/experience levels.

If you lose loads of planes at 3:1 ratio you're still curtailing his power. Any better and you're setting up to crush the Luftwaffe early on. Take the fight to the Germans, bomb their airfields until nothing flies. If on one turn you can't make his bomber and fighter fields, bomb his recce fields. You want TOTAL air superiority and that's what you shouyld eventually get.


Concentrate your airforce and bomb the Luftwaffe to pieces. 10 raids per turn on an airfield is not unusual. You will currently lose tons of escorts if within interceptor range but the bombers should get through if you do it right, 4/5 of the time and the Germans airforce can be severely reduced and its effectiveness impaired. If you like, bomb the fighter fields first so you can send unescorted bombers to do the others.

If you don't bother doing this for whatever reason you are passing up a major lever for your ultimate triumph.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 5/16/2011 8:27:21 AM >

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 15
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 5:49:09 PM   
fbs

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

etc...


That's an interesting point of view.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 16
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 7:17:00 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Tried and tested vs 3 opponents. Try it before it gets neutered.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 17
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 8:59:33 PM   
neuromancer


Posts: 532
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I bomb the snot out of the Russian air bases on Turn 1 (4 to 5 K planes destroyed at a cost of less than 200 - sets a good start position), after the first turn I look around every now and then for concentrated groups to paste.  But its usually a crap shoot whether you do much damage after the first day, and if you get beat up for your trouble.

I look through my air groups using filters in the CR looking for units that are below 50% total planes and see if they just haven't gotten replacements for some reason, or if there are no replacements.  I do a little early war juggling of fighters, recon, and bombers as the replacements are thin in the early war.  After December I find I have more bomber replacements than I have planes operating.

I also look for combat air groups at 25% or less morale, and rotate them out until they are at 60+%.  I don't go through the list every week, maybe every 2 or 3 turns.

Generally I use my planes for air supply, recon, AI run interdicition and AI run combat support, occassional city bombing, and occassional unit bombing (again for the disruption effects).

You should keep a full Jagdgeschwader in relative proximity to every section of the front for interception of enemy planes, and escorting your own planes.  I was annoyed to see the juggling of my squadrons that OBL was doing (dammit, someone just OD Goring and stop him from playing around with my squadrons!), but I still have 5 full Jagdgeschwaden that I need to reorganize (two of them are in the same Fliegerkorps right now).

WitE is certainly not as detailed about planes as WitP is, but that is hardly surprising.  The main focus is the ground war with the air war in a strictly supporting role.



< Message edited by neuromancer -- 5/16/2011 9:02:48 PM >

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 18
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/16/2011 10:35:44 PM   
Speedy

 

Posts: 14082
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		The air war will be looked at guys in due course (Pav says so it's Gospel!) it will take time though. Bear with us

_____________________________

WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 19
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/17/2011 5:44:46 AM   
johntoml56

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		What evidence is there that bombing a unit makes a difference, as the lossess are usually minimal...can this be verified or is it anecdotal/intuition derived from experience...?

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 20
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/18/2011 2:55:29 AM   
fbs

 

Posts: 957
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

The air war will be looked at guys in due course (Pav says so it's Gospel!) it will take time though. Bear with us


That works for me.

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 21
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/18/2011 10:42:34 AM   
molchomor

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

The air war will be looked at guys in due course (Pav says so it's Gospel!) it will take time though. Bear with us


That works for me.


For me too

Just one request: Please make it **worthwhile** to attack tank/mech corps with my tankbusters (JU-87G). Worthwhile for me would mean tank losses at least in the tens and not like today where it is close to zero (the occasional chef or two may get a 1000 pound bomb on his lap though and show up in losses).

(in reply to fbs)
Post #: 22
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/18/2011 11:11:56 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 11083
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Just one request: Please make it **worthwhile** to attack tank/mech corps with my tankbusters (JU-87G). Worthwhile for me would mean tank losses at least in the tens and not like today where it is close to zero (the occasional chef or two may get a 1000 pound bomb on his lap though and show up in losses).


It is not 0. When you bomb unit the biggest part of effect goes to disruption. Disruption has direct effect on combat effectiveness. Also after the battle disruption is converting to fatigue and damage. Damaged elements can easily get destroyed in case of no support and low experience, but this happens next logistic phase. So it is not 0, but it is not visible immediately.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW Development

(in reply to molchomor)
Post #: 23
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/18/2011 11:17:03 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

What evidence is there that bombing a unit makes a difference, as the lossess are usually minimal...can this be verified or is it anecdotal/intuition derived from experience...?



If you watch the combat in close detail then you'll not only see 'losses' but also 'damage' results (for interdiction) as well as 'disrupt' results for ground support. The bigger the hammer, the greater the impact.

(in reply to johntoml56)
Post #: 24
RE: So, anyone care about managing air units at all? - 5/20/2011 3:49:08 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Butchers bill for a 168 bomber attack.(212th Rifle Division in fort level 2 supported by a tank brigade activated from reserve status and some army level subunit reinforcements - hasty attack by 16th Motorised Division on opening turn of 1942 GC). It's split into three sections, the first is the results of the air attack on 212th Rifle Division. The second is the results of the component of the air attack which hit the tank brigade. For comparison purposes, the third is the result of the admittedly brief and not too inspiring opening German artillery barrage (hasty attacks suck for a decent opening to a battle from your ground forces). Admittedly, the actual casualties reported to be caused were relatively minor: 316 men, 17 artillery and 1 AFV (I can't get the numbers to add up either but it's worth noting that it seems like multiple damage hits can cause a 'loss' and that the casualty numbers being totted up during a combat can differ quite radically from the final result even for the 'victorious' side).

In this particular battle, the Germans took around 270 casualties and dealt out close to 1400 to the Soviets as they retreated. I've run the battle several dozen times at least and have found that air power makes the world of difference as it seems to suppress (the disruption results I presume) the incoming fire as your troops close to within assault range. Without it, that battle more often than not results in the German division bouncing off the defences with around 800 casualties.

NB: Forgot that there were two 76mm guns in the Soviet ToE and didn't distinguish between the two when tallying.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 5/20/2011 3:53:33 AM >

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 25
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> So, anyone care about managing air units at all? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.078