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Dealing with Anti-tank Guns

 
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Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 5/13/2011 3:00:31 PM   
Mobius


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The way I deal with anti-tank guns is to fire AP (or APHE) at them if I can see them. If my tank doesn’t have very much AP then I fire HE (high explosive). This is because AP is generally more accurate than HE and I want to eliminate the AT gun as fast as possible.

Now if I can’t see the AT-gun but they can see and fire at my tanks I use the tank guns to area fire HE near them. (Place the area fire box over the suspected AT-gun location.) This can suppress and on occasion destroy the anti-tank gun. The smaller the caliber the tank’s gun the less effect of the HE.

Sometimes an anti-tank gun will be suppressed by HE area fire and stop firing for awhile giving the impression that your fire has killed it. When it recovers from suppression it will resume its attack so beware.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 5/13/2011 3:01:37 PM >


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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 5/13/2011 3:06:04 PM   
Mad Russian


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If you have tanks you can simply run over an antitank gun if you can live to get to it. You can ram ATG's and they don't like it!

Good Hunting.

MR


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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 5/13/2011 3:39:55 PM   
Mobius


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A good scenario designer might place a small minefield right in front of the AT gun position.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 5/13/2011 4:04:50 PM   
Mad Russian


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A GOOD scenario designer might do a lot of things....

Good Hunting.

MR


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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/23/2012 7:14:00 PM   
Yoozername

 

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This is a realistic tactic and both the Germans and US used this IRL.  An AP round, even if it lands short, will ricochet and define a path of destruction.  The dust/dirt/rock/mud/etc. tossed up is very suppressive and the ATG crew would certainly feel 'targeted'.  An AP round would defeat vertical emplacements like sandbags and walls and such. 

Most SOP say to only use AP once a ATG is located.  HE and smoke are better 'area' fires in the ATG suspected position till the guns are ID'd. 

IRL these guns are often temporarily abandoned under direct fire.  They can and were recrewed after the threat had passed.  I often wonder just how vulnerable the optics on these ATG were.  Considering the way CMN is now modeling AFV optics being disabled by most weapons, the exposed sights on a ATG would stand no chance.


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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/23/2012 11:57:08 PM   
ComradeP

 

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A lot depends on the range and the side you play as.

As the Germans, I tend to fire mostly HE with multiple tanks as engagement ranges are usually a few hundred meters at most and accuracy is good enough (especially after gaining a few medals/bonuses) and even if I don't hit the gun, the crew is not going to enjoy being targeted. Even concentrated fire from 37mm HE shells can have an effect within a short amount of time (a round). You also usually have a bit more time to score a hit due to the low Soviet ROF and accuracy at least early in the war (when it's also combined with a significant chance a hit won't actually penetrate).

As the Soviets, I tend to fire AP because ROF is generally poor and the German AT guns have a good accuracy and ROF, as well as the potential to destroy your tanks at medium to long ranges. The Soviets can get 1 more bonus accuracy point compared to the Germans, I believe, which helps.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/26/2012 6:04:28 AM   
eggmansdaddy

 

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Yoozername

I used these very tactics to suppress some ATG's and then destroy them during a battle last night. Lead with HE until you get a definite fix, fire AP once spotted, clean up with HT MG's from flank.

Bary

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/26/2012 3:18:57 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I often wonder just how vulnerable the optics on these ATG were.  Considering the way CMN is now modeling AFV optics being disabled by most weapons, the exposed sights on a ATG would stand no chance.
There are a lot of things that could be modeled to represent minor damage. I have yet to read any account were the tank optics were damaged drip by drip. Or at least know during a battle that the optics have gone off. I have seen an account where the inaccuracy of 17pdr APDS was blamed on misaligned sights. Of course 17pdr APDS was so inaccurate that those firing it were told not to try to correct for each shot.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/26/2012 3:44:58 PM   
Yoozername

 

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As far as AFV optics being damaged, I have read of one account of a Panther having no vision devices working.  That includes all armored glass being shattered.  Unbelievably, the Germans still sat in the tank per orders.

But main gun optics, like the panther's, are enclosed under-armor.  Other AFV, like many German assault guns and TD, have exposed right-angle optics sticking out the roof of the vehicle.  They are extremely vulnerable.  I suppose that even a panther-type telescopic inline sight could catch a bullet or fragment but that is much less likely than a StuG sight that sticks up out of the roof. 

Gunsights are very similar to micrometers and other finely tuned metrology equipment.  You don't even drop these things otherwise the calibration is void.  From interior pictures, AFV seemed to have back up sights.  But once these main gun sights are replaced, they are not considered 'zeroed' till at least a few rounds are fired at a known range.  I suspect events like mantlet hits, even ricochets, impart enough energy to throw off a 'zero'.  Video of tanks driving through buildings are a joke.  Just hitting the main gun tube on something is a no-no.

As far as basic vision devices like armored glass blocks, they are replaceable in some instances.  The panther 'you-tube' shows how its done.  But these are just for situational awareness.  Tank commanders need to get their heads out at some point.  The best optics are the ones he wears around his neck.

Most ATG open fire at very close range once an enemy has entered a kill-zone.  The ranges are very well known and this takes out the main variable.  So, I suspect they can get by even with a ctacked sight.  The gun is pointed where it should be and the elevation is already set.  By observing the first round and tracer, a gunner can get that critical first hit.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/27/2012 1:17:43 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I often wonder just how vulnerable the optics on these ATG were.  Considering the way CMN is now modeling AFV optics being disabled by most weapons, the exposed sights on a ATG would stand no chance.
There are a lot of things that could be modeled to represent minor damage. I have yet to read any account were the tank optics were damaged drip by drip. Or at least know during a battle that the optics have gone off. I have seen an account where the inaccuracy of 17pdr APDS was blamed on misaligned sights. Of course 17pdr APDS was so inaccurate that those firing it were told not to try to correct for each shot.


Accurate or not the 17pdr threw up such a dust cloud at the front of the gun that the gunner lost sight of the target. So, whether it was accurate or not, he lost his sight picture, and had to assume all rounds were the same as initial rounds. Because he had nothing to adjust the next round(s) to with no visual on the target.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Dealing with Anti-tank Guns - 1/27/2012 9:19:46 PM   
Yoozername

 

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According to several German sources, ATG mostly fired by 'zones'.  I remember Rexford posting an excellent German report on Marders and how they were so successful.  It seems that they set up in ambush and quickly ascertained/surveyed ranges and 'zones'.  As an example, they would have 4 zones, zone-1 would be 0-300 meters, zone-2 300-600 meters, etc.  The gun commander would just shout the direction and zone out and the gun was cranked so that it would at least strike any AFV in that zone with high assurance somewhere along its height.  They did not try and dial in the correct range.  High velocity guns are very forgiving at close and medium ranges.

Terrain could be marked such as tree trunks painted white with stripes (one-stripe zone1, etc).  Also, burned out vehicles and other landmarks could be 'zoned'.  The drill is to know the enemy is within that zone and then aim at center of height and let fly.  In other words, the gunner just cranked the gun for 4-5 settings.  It is possible that a gun could lose its sight, but it would still be in a setting and therfore could potentially fire at that zone.

Basically the days of ATG missing at very short to medium ranges were over.  The glory-days of 88mm guns hitting long range tanks and correcting their aim ended with 75mm+ HE shells.

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