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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used?

 
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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 2:32:08 PM   
morvael


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I suggest adding secondary type for equipment, so it could be used in that role if no more needed in primary role or when more than necessary are in the pool (10:1 ratio should be enough) . So a CS tank could have a secondary type of medium or heavy tank and all would be well.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 3:37:08 PM   
Aditia

 

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Well, I think most of us agree that some feature, that will enable the player to make somewhat efficient use of what is produced would be welcomed

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 4:08:43 PM   
jaw

 

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I think the odd surplus of one or two AFV types is worth the cost to prohibit the kind of nonsense that went on in War In Russia. Besides you have an editor, if it really bothers you to not be able to use those Panzer IIIns just edit them in to whatever TOE you want to see them in. Even easier change would be to edit the ground element file and change the Panzer IIIn from a close support tank to an assault gun. Such a change would probably cause some weirdness elsewhere but it would be the easiest fix. If you want to see Panzer IIIns used by infantry divisions you are already past worrying about historical niceties.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 6:50:25 PM   
Red Lancer


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Whilst I agree that jaw's suggestion that you make changes in the editor if you are not happy is the best solution be warned..........any changes you make to either the Ground Elements or the TOE(OB) files will (currently) change every scenario.

That said I'm having great fun with my simplified German production scenario - although I've got two installs on my computer so I can still play as the designers intended.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 7:04:19 PM   
Tesuji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia
I have to say it feels pretty dumb to see 90% of my infantry divisions without AFV (StuG losses are horrific) and seeing 250 infantry tanks being used to parade around the Champs Elysee

If only the Leader knew that!

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 7:07:34 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Whilst I agree that jaw's suggestion that you make changes in the editor if you are not happy is the best solution be warned..........any changes you make to either the Ground Elements or the TOE(OB) files will (currently) change every scenario.


Isn't it planned for 1.04 that you can embed "generic" data into scenarios? Did they drop that feature?

I know of quite a few guys willing to help play testing a "Hakko Ichiu" (cough) "Deutschland über alles" 41-45 GC variant :)

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 7:52:43 PM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Isn't it planned for 1.04 that you can embed "generic" data into scenarios? Did they drop that feature?

I know of quite a few guys willing to help play testing a "Hakko Ichiu" (cough) "Deutschland über alles" 41-45 GC variant :)


It has been posted that the plan is to embed the generic data but when that will happen is anyone's guess. A pain but not a showstopper.

As to producing the scenario that you and your friends may consider playing then start posting ideas in the modding/scenario area. I've played a very small part in WiTP:AE's Reluctant Admiral Scenario and have enjoyed the intellectual arguments and discussion on what to change. I'm much happier working on something that someone might play than for no input. 43 people have downloaded the beta of my Op Mars scenario yet I've had only had three replies plus one load of constructive feedback by PM. No one had anything to say on my proposals for simplifying and boosting german production!

I really really enjoy this game and personally think the community can do so much better within the games' current constraints/format with a little thought. In my opinion we need to get over ourselves and realise that big changes are unlikely to happen just by occasional moaning on the forums. This discussion on the Pz IIIn is to some extent a case in point. Perhaps at this six month anniversary of release point the community may like to think differently too.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 8:05:30 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
It has been posted that the plan is to embed the generic data but when that will happen is anyone's guess. A pain but not a showstopper.


Hmmm, I half-remember reading about plans of implementing that feature and perhaps I just associated them with 1.04.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
As to producing the scenario that you and your friends may consider playing


That was more a jab to members of the WiTE community here and in other places :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
then start posting ideas in the modding/scenario area. I've played a very small part in WiTP:AE's Reluctant Admiral Scenario and have enjoyed the intellectual arguments and discussion on what to change. I'm much happier working on something that someone might play than for no input. 43 people have downloaded the beta of my Op Mars scenario yet I've had only had three replies plus one load of constructive feedback by PM. No one had anything to say on my proposals for simplifying and boosting german production!


Well, I have actually been going over the spreadsheets you published with the adjustments to German production. They seemed to me to be quite reasonable. However, I just lack the references or knowledge to judge if they're too optimistic or too pesimistic. Streamlining production - by committing just to a handful of designs - is something that worked very well for both the US and the Soviet Union. Would that work as well for Germany? Probably yes, if we judge the ability to expand small arms production by the Third Reich from 1943 onwards (a type of equipment highly standardized). But, what would the scale of the increase in production? There Red Lancer, I feel I can't contribute anything. I just don't have a clue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
I really really enjoy this game and personally think the community can do so much better within the games' current constraints/format with a little thought. In my opinion we need to get over ourselves and realise that big changes are unlikely to happen just by occasional moaning on the forums. This discussion on the Pz IIIn is to some extent a case in point. Perhaps at this six month anniversary of release point the community may like to think differently too.


I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you, Red Lancer.


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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 8:27:48 PM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you, Red Lancer.


Thanks for that Bletchley_Geek. Perhaps the revolution can start here.

As for considerations of German production there are few thing better in life than a good intellectual discussion because at the end of the day it furthers knowledge. I may be opinionated but I'm not judgemental so I value your input.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 8:41:13 PM   
PyleDriver


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I was wondering also about armor sitting in Germany. I had nearly 260 PzIII J/60 sitting there come March 42. I pulled 3 PzD's back for refit on a railhead and "bing" within two weeks they were at the front...So I kept doing this and most of the stuff is in the east.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 8:45:18 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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I know that the issue of 'tanks' sitting in the pool due to TOE specs of units is WAD. But it's something that has always annoyed the heck out of me with the game. I've had situations where large amounts of tanks or other equipment (arty for example) will be able to accumulate in production pools (manpower and armaments are avail) and not be sent to the front as I would hope.

I pray for the day when players are able to tweak some of these TOE's or somehow allow this surplus equipment to be used. We have seen this before with a players having 200+ tigers sitting in the pool, which to me was just ridiculous and unimaginable to ever have occurred in the east front campaign. Think about the build up to Operation Citadel in which each and every tiger and panther possible was send directly to the front. Some not even being properly painted unit they reach their unit on the frontline. So I think it's VERY hypocritical of WitE mechanics to try and mimic the blizzard effects of that first winter as HISTORICAL, yet it can let large pools of important equipment be denied to axis units on the eastern front. From what I understand these pools are specifically for the east front and no other fronts.

Does anybody understand the rational of this? Or are we just dealing with a concept created by a certain design agenda in WitE with respect to unit TOE?

IMO, it's not really a bug, but an aspect of the game that needs to be modified.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 8:56:50 PM   
PyleDriver


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You inputs on the first winter are welcome. Hell weve been working on it for 3 years, its better now but I feel were short of historic. Theres alot of smart guys playing this game, throw out your inputs...

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/6/2011 9:55:14 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

PzIIIN were used as support for heavy armor battalions, check your Tiger battalions, PzIIIN should be there.



Or with the Pz Grds.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iii.htm

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/7/2011 12:50:16 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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I think the best solution is to take them and add them to all the Tigers that were complained about last month. That way we can have PzIIIn/Tigers (with Berkut's 105mm AA guns) in some sort of super weapon. Then, of course, make them black (far cooler) and have super SS tanks!

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/7/2011 2:23:50 AM   
TAIL_GUNNER

 

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quote:

In my 42 GC I get 8 tigers/week, from the start of production it has been this way. 125 weeks of that would mean I get 1000 tanks less than the figure quoted above during the same period (I am in feb '44 now and still 8 tigers are produced each turn). So I would not be so sure to draw any conclusions on the "production for all theatres" thing. of course I have the same problem with most units not wanting/daring to use the tiger and king tigers so the majority are sitting in the pool (this has been discussed to death before, we will never get a switch tank equipment option (as exists for aircrafts) so game "features" as e.g. pz divisions having zero or very few T-70:s, T-34s etc. in their listed equipment instead of using the piles of tigers being available will stay).

Edit: Lol ? 125 x 1 = 125 tanks less not 1000 tanks less :)


Well I must apologize and admit I was wrong with my numbers. I was looking at the Locations tab using the Generic data.

Using the correct Scenario data I see that the Tiger factory in Kassel starts at size '1', with a max expansion of '8'.

So, rough guess the factory and reinforcements account for about ~1000 Tigers....still maybe a bit high.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/7/2011 8:34:07 PM   
Q-Ball


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The 1943 Scenario starts with 213 IIIn's deployed to Panzer Divisions. There is no slot for CS Tanks in the TOE's of course, but they are there.

Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed, or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.

AchtungPanzer sez IIIns served in PzG Divisions and Tiger Bns, but not necessarily Panzer Divisions.

I have to believe they served on the Eastern Front.

Maybe the easiest is to add a slot to PzG divisions for CS tanks, and add that to TOE

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/7/2011 8:45:57 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

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Yep. Believe some of the TO&Es have their slots maxed out though. Stug Battalions are an "easy" end user modification as well.

In all fairness, the Pz IIIn not being used isn't the same as the Tiger. Tiger is a case of production being averaged so you wind up with more than historical numbers early on, possibly coupled with less than historical losses. The IIIn is a case of it simply having no unit to go to for a good portion of the run so once production is completed you potentially have hundreds of them that cost armaments points to build but never left the showroom floor.

EG the Tiger battalions. Their TO&E from 8/42->7/43 has them, but there is a combined total of 14 months present from all Tiger Battalions in that period. They can be used to fill in the Pz IVF slots in some of the divisions that retain CS slots through the end of 42. Believe a couple retain single digits of CS tanks part way into 43.

In that same period something like ~550 Pz IIIns are slated to be produced, assuming there are sufficient resources for their production. Romania has a IIIn import element, but has no CS tanks in any of their TO&E.


< Message edited by Baron von Beer -- 5/7/2011 9:08:11 PM >

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/7/2011 11:16:07 PM   
TAIL_GUNNER

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The 1943 Scenario starts with 213 IIIn's deployed to Panzer Divisions. There is no slot for CS Tanks in the TOE's of course, but they are there.

Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed, or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.

AchtungPanzer sez IIIns served in PzG Divisions and Tiger Bns, but not necessarily Panzer Divisions.

I have to believe they served on the Eastern Front.

Maybe the easiest is to add a slot to PzG divisions for CS tanks, and add that to TOE


If there's no slot for them, then after turn 1, all those Panzer IIIN are gonna go right into the pool..

They were used in Panzer divisions, often as a substitute for the long gun version of the Panzer IV.

The official Panzer strength for a battalion in 1943 called for 93 Panzer IV. But just one expample the 5th Panzer Division report right before Citadelle shows 76 Panzer IV, and 17 Panzer IIIn.

Another interesting fact, all the Panzer IIIN were made by converting older models (mostly IIIL and IIIM).

Would be awesome if this game could somehow incorporate production with these types of conversions.


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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 12:47:38 AM   
Keke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed, or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.


Ahem

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 12:52:52 AM   
lycortas

 

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Yes, the Panzer Grenadier '42 division did not generally have Mk IIIm's but IIIn's. So, i have switched that in the DB. Also, the '43 heavy tank battalions kept 7 (1 platoon) of IIIn's each. Modded that as well.

Also, the IIIJ (L60) is seriously under produced. I checked 'free' IIIJ's coming in with units and what not and your max production and it is only ~40% or so of the actual IIIJ (L60) and IIIL production. Should be 1700 or so built.

On the other hand the IIIm was rarely used and should be removed from some of the TOEs, such as the 42 Panzer Grenadier. Most IIIm's were converted to flame tanks or Stugs.

Armour is wrong on a few vehicles as well, i am working on this.

Mike

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 6:24:20 PM   
Scook_99

 

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My question is, how do your stockpiles look in January, 1945? Productions runs /= how long a tank was used. If you have 2-300 Pz-IIIN's sitting around come January, 1945, then I see an issue. If you popped them all into units in 1942, then get bled of tanks so your units have no replacements, we would see the opposite side of this arguing the Germans have no replacements. I do get it though, as our Russian opponents can spend some Admin Points and <poof> empty surplus pool.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 8:16:32 PM   
lycortas

 

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'43 panzer grenadier divisions don't use cs tanks, so in '6 '43 or so your units will get rid of their IIIn's just as the production ends.

Symmetry... tastes like zombies!

Mike

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 10:54:06 PM   
Brad Hunter


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Pz.III Production:





Attachment (1)

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 10:54:54 PM   
Brad Hunter


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StuG.III Production:






Attachment (1)

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/8/2011 10:57:58 PM   
Brad Hunter


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Source:

Jentz, Thomas L., "Panzer Tracts No. 23, Panzer Production from 1933 to 1945," Panzer Tracts, Boyds, MD, 2011.

Mr. Jetz has taken the surviving Waffenamt records, and cross-referenced them, and supplemented them, with actual production and assemby plant records. I highly recommend the book.

Brad

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/9/2011 12:39:08 AM   
lycortas

 

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Brad, do you know if there is a reason for so few IIIJ60's and IIIL's in the game? There are only a bit more than a thousand as far as i can tell, and we will only see 800 or so with the system of some production going west.

Mike

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/9/2011 1:44:48 AM   
Brad Hunter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lycortas

Brad, do you know if there is a reason for so few IIIJ60's and IIIL's in the game? There are only a bit more than a thousand as far as i can tell, and we will only see 800 or so with the system of some production going west.

Mike


I'm not sure, but keep in mind that all of the Pz.IIIJs were redesignated Pz.IIILs in 03/42, so you want to look at the combination of the two for totals.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/9/2011 3:12:57 AM   
TAIL_GUNNER

 

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Good stuff Brad...I love these type of discussions.

As far as the IIIN, here are some quotes from Jentz's own Panzertruppen:

Page 215
quote:

On 19 August 1942, the Panzer units were notified that in the future, the Pz.Kpfw.III with the 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 would be issued instead of the Pz.Kpfw.III with the 5 cm Kw.K.39 L/60. Distribution was planned so that every leichte Panzer-Kompanie would receive a Zug of five Pz.Kpfw.III (7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 )

Page 219 (regarding the reforming 6., 7., and 10. Panzer Divisions.)
quote:

There was no uniformity in issuing the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N with the 7.5 cm Kw.K L/24 gun. Panzer-Regiment 7 didn't receive any, Panzer-Regiment 11 received 32-35, and Panzer-Regiment 25 received 14 Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N.



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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/9/2011 12:37:15 PM   
Brad Hunter


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Yup - a Pz.III was a Pz.III - regardless of armament.

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RE: When will Panzer IIIn get used? - 5/9/2011 12:41:26 PM   
lycortas

 

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That is good stuff. I am probably just going to mod them in for the Pzg divisions and the Tiger battalions ('43+). The pazer regiments it was so random.

Or i could be less lazy and get rid of the CS tank category, and just make them all medium tanks. That way a IVE could be replaced by a IIIM or a IIIN or a IVG.

Mike

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