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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov)

 
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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/10/2011 10:57:12 PM   
Aditia

 

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And an overview of the frontline at the end of turn 15




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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/10/2011 11:18:22 PM   
Mynok


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One thing BigAnorak warned me about (and he was very right): don't put panzers in the front line if at all possible. The massive amount of Soviet artillery will decimate them.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/10/2011 11:57:01 PM   
Aditia

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


One thing BigAnorak warned me about (and he was very right): don't put panzers in the front line if at all possible. The massive amount of Soviet artillery will decimate them.


This only true to a point. And I kind of disagree.

- Without panzer divisions in the frontline where you don't have level 3 or 4 forts, you are inviting soviet attacks. The reason why I think my opponent is having a very hard time wearing down the wehrmacht is because he can usually at best take one hex in a section of line because I keep my front strong.

- You have to realize that a lot of German AFV losses are armored cars and 8 wheelers. A lot of tanks actually get repaired during the logistics phase. Especially the sturdier Panthers and Tigers.

- You are right when it comes to having Pz divisions alone in the line. Then they become highly vulnerable, but still mostly due to the destruction of its infantry. The most important things when deciding to put Panzers in the line are in my opinion: 1. Do I have a chance to hold the hex when doing this? 2. Make absolutely sure they can retreat 1 hex when forced to. Double attrition is deadly.

To give an example that it is not so black and white, below a screenshot of one of my Pz divisions that got hammered by his strongest forces (loads of arty and sturmoviks). Before and after the combat. Note that while the division lost about 40% of its organic PzIII's and PZIV's and 15% of the attached Panthers, it lost about 75-80% of its infantry elements. The infantry division that was in the same stack lost about two thirds of its rifle squads.




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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 12:03:07 AM   
Aditia

 

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By the way, when I look at this and something I notice frequently, it's almost like German mechanized infantry elements commit mass suicide in combat, they always seem to get completely whiped out. Not sure if there is something wrong in the code. It appears our mechanized troops ride up to enemy bunkers in their halftracks waiting for the soviet gunners to get a shot off.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 12:15:50 AM   
fiva55


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Agreed on all points. I too use Pz div to close up gaps. They are usually able to hold up against forward elements of my opponents army, while infantry on open ground without fortifications will just be massacred.

As for the soft elements of german pz(g) div getting mauled, I too have noticed that. I thought it was pretty logical though, tanks are after all more durable then human bodies.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 12:18:06 AM   
Aditia

 

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I was talking about the difference between motorized and mechanized elements fiva, the mechanized elements don't seem to properly dismount or something, but their loss ratio is usually way above that of the motorized infantry

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 3:07:19 AM   
Mynok


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That's interesting info. You still lost a lot more motorized than mechanized, but you had more to start with. You also lost over half your tanks, at least the organic ones. Be also curious to see how much arty he had as well as ground support aircraft. I've found the latter to be absolutely devastating to my panzers in my game.



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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 11:06:18 AM   
Keke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

By the way, when I look at this and something I notice frequently, it's almost like German mechanized infantry elements commit mass suicide in combat, they always seem to get completely whiped out. Not sure if there is something wrong in the code. It appears our mechanized troops ride up to enemy bunkers in their halftracks waiting for the soviet gunners to get a shot off.


Interesting observation. Thanks for the info!

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/11/2011 3:58:40 PM   
fiva55


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I was talking about the difference between motorized and mechanized elements fiva, the mechanized elements don't seem to properly dismount or something, but their loss ratio is usually way above that of the motorized infantry


Apologies, I should have read your post better. Ah well, I guess one theoretical explanations is that mech are always first into the action, and last to leave. One would assume that they would lose more than their motorized compatriots.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/12/2011 9:42:31 PM   
Aditia

 

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Turn 16 is the second turn of mud. Not much happening. Some attacks here and there, most notably in the Bryansk sector where even unsuccesful soviet assault cause more casulties to us than to the reds.

The 2 cut off Soviet tank corps are destroyed. Mostly a loss in AP for him as they were already severly understrength.

Luftwaffe (tactical) bombers are sent to the reserve and their pilots enjoy some escapades with Parisiennes.






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< Message edited by Aditia -- 5/12/2011 9:43:08 PM >

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/12/2011 10:02:14 PM   
Aditia

 

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While I was hoping to recover strength during mud, both manpower replacements to the front and pilot training missions are slowing down significantly :( It's a real shame that the Luftwaffe doesn't create more jagdgruppen, since we now have 180 spare messersschmitts in the pool and the number is growing. And god knows we could use some more fighter pilots. Damn you Rudel!

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/14/2011 11:38:05 PM   
Aditia

 

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Turn 17, 10/24/1943

Snow! With a random snow turn I am forced to give some more ground, especially in the South where the fall of Stalino triggers a rapid withdrawal, since there is now no need (nor enough strength), to keep resisting the soviet advance here.






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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/14/2011 11:43:08 PM   
Aditia

 

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In the North we shift some of 9th Army's armor to the Velikie Luki area in an attempt to stabilize the front and delay a withdrawal from Leningrad to the Peipus.






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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/14/2011 11:50:45 PM   
Aditia

 

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Here a shot of turn 17 logistics.

Both replacement in men and pilot training are down. Refit phase replacement was around 120k per turn in the summer and pilot training missions were about 160. I hope this is not a trend or I am screwed. Luckily over the next week the Ostfront will recieve sizeable reinforcements. We will put them to good use and throw them into the line to get slaughtered.




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< Message edited by Aditia -- 5/14/2011 11:51:03 PM >

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/15/2011 10:34:55 PM   
Aditia

 

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Turn 18; 10/31/1943

Mud again. But the Soviet turn 17 during snow hurt! A lot of attacks that turn, and of course almost no possibility of counter attack because of mud. This does not bode well for the Soviet winter offensive. Especially with rivers freezing over. The word "retreat" will be very common in the orders for Army commanders in the winter of 43/44

Screenshot of the front at the start of the turn. Losses shown for the turn with the losses for relevant AFV's. The Wehrmacht is very pleased with the new Panther A tank. It proves very resilient in combat and more often than not when knocked out we manage to make them servicable again.




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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/15/2011 10:44:47 PM   
Aditia

 

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The most notable soviet attacks were in the south. Here a screenshot of my Dnepropetrovsk sector (the name Kharkov sector was abandoned).

Massive soviet breakthrough renders my planned line of resistance out of commission and with mud I have no choice but to leave the Soviet mechanized forces be and retreat closer to the Dnepr. Also, west of Kharkov my western arm of the Dnepropetrovsk line is breached threatening to unhinge the line between AGS and AGC.






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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 5/15/2011 10:54:27 PM   
Aditia

 

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Turn 18 after German moves (end of update).

The only real movement occurs in the South and where I have units/stacks with very low CV in the frontline since mud should protect my forces. No need to fatigue them during mud.

At Dnepropetrovsk the Wehrmacht heads for the next river line which includes the grand river itself. With hostile formations now at the doorstep of D-town the battle for Dnepropetrovsk will start as soon as the ground hardens. AGS has been given orders to fight and fight it shall.

The good news is that with the southern wing of AGS withdrawing from Stalino the line will shorten, providing me with infantry divisions to feed into the line at Dnepropetrovsk.




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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/1/2011 2:08:21 PM   
delatbabel


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Quick report in from Stavka: Turn 25 has come and gone and Dnepropetrovsk, Stalino, Zaporozhye, Smolensk are all in Soviet hands. The assault on the Finns has commenced and with 3 armies fighting up there backed up by 6 artillery divisions, the Finns are being blasted out of their fortifications and pushed backwards. Another breakthrough north of Velikye Luki was timed to coincide with the liberation of Dnepropetrovsk. During the blizzard turns I am going on a campaign of searching for weak German panzer units and smashing them with tank armies to cause the maximum amount of losses (on both sides if necessary) and see who has the best factories.

However I seem to have lost my opponent. A couple of weeks ago he emailed to say he is going away for a couple of days, but no response since then.

It has been a good game so far. A slow grind, but enjoyable. Much of what you do as the Soviets needs extensive planning, and some of my inaction early in the campaign has been followed up by massive artillery and tank assaults in later turns. In one single battle in the north I launched just under 10,000 artillery pieces into action. With assaults like that the Germans tend to leave the hex in tatters, regardless of the fortification levels.

A few things I don't enjoy about the 1943 campaign:

* The Soviet army's organisation requires a lot of admin points to fix. A lot of tank and mech corps are assigned to the Moscow MD and most of the remainder are assigned to Front HQs (as are the cavalry corps). In building an army from a 1941 start, given the limitations in the game system, I would never assign a corps to a Front HQ. I spent nearly 15 turns of admin points fixing this. Either the scenario needs fixing, or there needs to be a reduction in the combat penalty for front-attached combat units joining army-attached combat units in the same battle.

* Too many units are static, and cost too many APs to reactiviate. It costs more APs to activate a mech corps than it does to build it from scratch. I spent a lot of turns organising things like getting a mech corps into the front line, advancing it one hex after a battle, and letting the Germans hit it, because that activates it for free whereas spending APs to activate it is too expensive. I even moved static artillery divisions into front line hexes and left them undefended to ensure they would retreat and activate. It's stupid and gamey, but it's the only way to progress as the Soviets.

Anyway, I will look for a new opponent but I think I should play a 1941 campaign to avoid the above issues.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/1/2011 2:21:32 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Maybe he is Missing In Action?

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/1/2011 2:22:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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The Soviet is perpetually AP starved in this scenario. Their AP budget doesn't come near enough to cover both activations and command and control. Especially when you have frozen mech corps costing close to 70 AP to activate. And you have to also begin forming rifle corps ASAP.

I resolved this problem to my own satisfaction in this manner: I totally ignored CC and focused on activation. Just get that mass moving and don't worry about the finer details. Even so, it's going to take you close to six months just to activate the entire front.

I do not think it is possible from a 43 start to ever really get caught up on APs. That shouldn't stop you from winning, however, if you accept certain inefficiencies in the Red Army.

I've been able to cross the Denpr in the south as early as turn 12 doing this. The Germans are incredibly weak by the Stalino area and if you pour everything you've got down there, they'll be hard pressed to stop you. You can bust a hole open in this area as early as turn 2.

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/2/2011 8:55:56 AM   
delatbabel


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This was in fact the second game I played with Aditia. In the first game he busted my line open north and south of Kursk, and encircled the entire Kursk pocket on the first turn. In my first turn I re-opened the pocket, and worked on activating units south of the line, also railing in all of my spare mech units there. I did this for another turn and on the third turn tore his line open south of Kursk, massed tanks and artillery, and deeply encircled all of the elite forces he'd used to break my line. Aditia resigned at that point.

A critical factor in that first game was being able to have a lot of units activated for free when they retreated from German attacks.

In the second game he was much more circumspect. A few steps back and he held his line. I came forwards with my static army, activating units where I could and moving everything else one hex forward. Yes, it was much harder and it did take about 6 months to mobilise the army but now it's done.

It's simply ridiculous that it takes twice as many APs to activate a static tank corps as it does to build it from scratch. Unfortunately it's not possible to disband a static unit otherwise I would simply have disbanded about half of the army and started with mobile units.

The AP system, especially in the 1943 campaign, needs quite a bit of attention.


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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/2/2011 9:11:16 AM   
Keke


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That is why there no static Corps in the Revised edition: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2789369

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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/2/2011 5:00:01 PM   
delatbabel


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That's not really a "revised edition" of the standard 1943 scenario, it's a new scenario based on the 1943 scenario with some historical updates.

The fact that the static corps exist doesn't bother me. After all on an average mud/blizzard turn about 1/3 to 1/2 of my army isn't moving anyway, so I'd just as soon put them into static mode. It's the AP cost to reactivate them afterwards that is the problem.


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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/2/2011 5:33:44 PM   
Keke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

That's not really a "revised edition" of the standard 1943 scenario, it's a new scenario based on the 1943 scenario with some historical updates.


English is not my mother tongue, so could you elaborate?


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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/3/2011 5:27:04 AM   
delatbabel


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OK sorry if I wasn't clear.

A "revised" scenario is one that I would expect the original developers of the game, that is 2by3 or Matrix, to include in some update of the game set. So we could say "This new update of WitE from Matrix includes a revised 1943 scenario that replaces the previous version".

What you have made is a very good scenario but it is a "modified" scenario.  So you have taken the supplied 1943 scenario and changed it to better reflect history, and to remove the annoying issue of the static corps.  So instead of the above we could say "This new update of WitE from Matrix still includes the original 1943 scenario" but also "there is a modified and improved scenario from Jyri that is better historically".  In gamer forums we often refer to those as "add ons" or "mods" or similar.

Think of it as the difference between fixing bugs in the software and adding new features to the software.

I hope that makes it more clear.

I would like to play your scenario but I would also like to see the AP gain/loss for putting units into static mode and taking them out to be reduced greatly.  It really does not take 2 - 3 x the amount of paperwork (admin points) to send a corps some trucks as it does to create the corps in the first place.  I made the suggestion of 0 AP to go static, and 1 AP to mobilise, for any size unit.


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RE: 43-45 campaign (Axis) Aditia vs Delatabel (Sov) - 6/3/2011 2:06:34 PM   
Klydon


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Unfortunately the community has not really been receptive of mods unless they are "official" from 2by3/Matrix. This makes it especially frustrating to play the Russians in the later scenarios since they find so much of their army in static mode along with a mess for command and control. In addition, they still want to form certain units and assemble corps.

I pretty much agree with Flaviusx on what he does in this. I have not messed with the later scenarios that much, but from what I see, it appears the best course of action for the Red Army is to just bludgeon the Germans to pieces with infantry corps and artillery. It may take a bit, but the Germans just can't take the losses and at some point, the Russians won't need to do the huge assaults and can roll a bit better. Sort of like a boxer who works the body early in the fight with no real signs of damage, but later in the fight, his opponent is out of gas and fatigued from all the on going punishment.

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