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Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS

 
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Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 3:45:22 PM   
bertipa

 

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This is more an Ethical than a Technical Question:

Now that we know who the SAKATURI are what is the 'correct' way to deal with them?

1 - Kill at first sight
2 - Trade embargo them hoping that they will declere war earlier
3 - Wait their move and pretend to know nothing

The first choice is a little simplicistic, unethical and brings the match to a quick end
The second choice is still not correct but the war usually start in a balanced situation
In the third choice I feel a little stupid and, when all the chips are down, they are not nice neighborhoods.

_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 3:58:55 PM   
Tree Dog


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The correct way to deal with them, is to do it the way you see fit...
I very much doubt any race+government in DW will have the same understanding as us of what is ethical and what isn't. You decide yourself what is ethical to your empire and what isn't, and most importantly, if Shakturis are worthy of ethic considerations.

(in reply to bertipa)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 4:22:51 PM   
bertipa

 

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Yeah, right, but I was asking more if option 1 and 2 were like cheating... or not?

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From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 4:31:30 PM   
Data


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It depends on how hard you want to make your own game and how enjoyable, I would call these options as cheating ourselves but not cheating in the actual sense.
And welcome to the community bertipa, which ever option you take I hope you have tons of fun.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 4:56:20 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Either run by your AI advisor.

Or look by your population's attitude. If they are fond of them, free trade. If they are annoyed, trade embargo. If they are furious. Declare war with limited objectives (contested bases).

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 9:14:03 PM   
jrhindo

 

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How to see what your population thinks of other empires?

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 9:19:27 PM   
ASHBERY76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jrhindo

How to see what your population thinks of other empires?


Diplomacy screen.You click on another Empire and then look by your Empire.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/5/2011 10:13:01 PM   
Igard


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I always role play whichever race I'm running. So, if they appear on the far side of the galaxy from me and there's really no imminent threat, I'll let them establish their empire. Then I pay the price.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/6/2011 1:34:09 AM   
ehsumrell1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

Then I pay the price.


i.e. Forty cases of aged Romulan ale!

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/6/2011 7:35:34 AM   
bertipa

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Either run by your AI advisor.

Or look by your population's attitude. If they are fond of them, free trade. If they are annoyed, trade embargo. If they are furious. Declare war with limited objectives (contested bases).


I like that. Will try it.

Thanks.



_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

(in reply to Bingeling)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/6/2011 7:39:35 AM   
bertipa

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Either run by your AI advisor.

Or look by your population's attitude. If they are fond of them, free trade. If they are annoyed, trade embargo. If they are furious. Declare war with limited objectives (contested bases).


BTW the AI advisors are heavily infiltrated by the Sakaturi so I never mind them unless they point their eyes on pirate bases.

The population attitude seems less biased.

Will see what a little of populism will bring.



_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/6/2011 7:40:53 AM   
Data


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little populism...now that's a good oxymoron

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/6/2011 4:39:43 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bertipa

Yeah, right, but I was asking more if option 1 and 2 were like cheating... or not?


I think you have to consider the evidence before you can decide what action is appropriate.

1. When they first appear, they claim to be refugees from another galaxy - yet show up with a competely developed world. How they managed to move their entire world should raise reasonable doubts as to their refugee claims.
2. You should have discovered a great deal of galactic history regarding their past. Whether or not you think the discovered archives are sufficiently damning is a personal consideration.
3. Depending on your race, it might be completely justifiable to attack them regardless of what claims they make. An incredibly sweet planet with rather paltry defences - some races might consider this an open invitation to invade, while others might consider it prudent to nip the potential problem in the bud - avoiding the potential humanitarian crisis of a conflict by acting preemptively.

Personally, I attack them on sight. Any race that's dangerous enough to cause galaxy-wide genocide isn't worth the risk of allowing to run free.

(in reply to bertipa)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 7:58:40 AM   
bertipa

 

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Unfortunately my usual strategy is one of diplomatic expansion: by the time they arrive half of the galaxy is in a mutual defense agreement with me and I'm in free trade with the rest (by the way if I want to see them at all I have to up the galaxy percentage needed to win).

So any harsh position against them is 'out of character'.

> Personally, I attack them on sight. Any race that's dangerous enough to cause galaxy-wide genocide isn't worth the risk of allowing to run free.

But that is the problem isn't it? You know that but your 'Empire ruler' character don't.

At that point the Ancient Guardians share almost all the suspicious characteristics with them.


< Message edited by bertipa -- 4/7/2011 8:44:34 AM >

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 8:41:20 AM   
bertipa

 

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I have the feeling that it is a design fault.

Tha Sakaturi should be any new empire who pops out via 'Minor race upgrading' or 'Waked up after eons of sleep'.

The 'Immigrant from another galaxy' could be them, good guys or neutrals.

The AI players shold be able to mask in the diplomacy screen the technologies who they don't want to share or make you know that they have it.

The Shakaturi should have a tech that let them disguise really well... that would explain how they were able to infiltrate so well your advisors.

... or they can be the Ancient Guardians waiting for reinforcement/recontact from the intergalactic homeworld to start the shooting.

That will solve the ethical problem and will add a good dose of paranoia.

< Message edited by bertipa -- 4/7/2011 8:42:16 AM >


_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 9:01:24 AM   
cookie monster


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They should storm into the Galaxy guns blazing, troopers ready for action, destroying empires before you've even hit pause.

I did have them turn up as refugees in one game but it ended it with an auto victory shortly after.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 10:15:37 AM   
Bingeling

 

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I had them turn up as refugees in the game I did not want to play, but have not seen them in the ones I kind of want to play...

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 12:39:33 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bertipa

But that is the problem isn't it? You know that but your 'Empire ruler' character don't.


How so? By the point they show up, you have uncovered all the galactic archives explaining the mass genocide and history of aggressive expansionism of the Shakturi. Surely the "Empire ruler" would see all of these archives in great detail?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bertipa

At that point the Ancient Guardians share almost all the suspicious characteristics with them.


Whatever gave you the impression I wasn't out whooping their shiny metal arses at the first opportunity? I play "realpolitik" in 4X games. Given the actions of USA "bastion of democracy" - 1846-1848 Mexico-American war, to the more recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan... how can the most Machiavellian outlook be "out of character"?

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/7/2011 3:49:37 PM   
bertipa

 

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> How so? By the point they show up, you have uncovered all the galactic archives
> explaining the mass genocide and history of aggressive expansionism of the Shakturi.
> Surely the "Empire ruler" would see all of these archives in great detail?

Point is that when they show up they are not called Sakaturi and only the player know who they really are, not the Empire ruler Character.
When they show they real color they are sometimes too powerful.

But the basic point is that as is implemented the storyline push you in doing things that are out of character... OK, OK, If you are waging war to all the semisentient life you have meet you are not touched by this problem.

> Whatever gave you the impression I wasn't out whooping their shiny metal arses at the
> first opportunity? I play "realpolitik" in 4X games. Given the actions of USA "bastion > of democracy" - 1846-1848 Mexico-American war, to the more recent wars in Iraq and
> Afghanistan... how can the most Machiavellian outlook be "out of character"?

Yeah, that is my liberal/pacifistic until I can expand without trouble/bleeding heart problem.
After I knew who they were I just leaved them alone until they come to my side for the Grat War.

But that also is not exactly correct from an external point of view.


_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

(in reply to Kayoz)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/8/2011 6:47:44 AM   
Data


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Not sure how we could get around this from an RP point of view, whatever the storyline is. You'll know it the first time you play it so you'll be prepared next time.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/8/2011 8:36:48 AM   
bertipa

 

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Ad I was proposing elsewere the storyline should be more <flexible> so you already know more or less what will happen but the exact situation will be always different.

BTW writing this I had a really wild tought: what if in the middle of a game (maybe only if you are not doing very well) you will find out that YOU are the SAKATURI in disguise?

_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

(in reply to Data)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/8/2011 10:20:33 AM   
Data


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Wild...or a descendent of them; not sure how soon we'll see something like this but flexible storyline definitly gets my vote now. Well thought, bertipa.

_____________________________

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/8/2011 2:18:06 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bertipa

Point is that when they show up they are not called Sakaturi and only the player know who they really are, not the Empire ruler Character.
When they show they real color they are sometimes too powerful.

But the basic point is that as is implemented the storyline push you in doing things that are out of character... OK, OK, If you are waging war to all the semisentient life you have meet you are not touched by this problem.


I understand your "in character" point, that it's a bit of metagaming to use your knowledge as a player. However, since you have spies which can get real-time fleet information, it's not much of a stretch that those spies can send back a copy of their elementary school history texts recounting their glorious cleansing operations in the galaxy of old. Calling your race by a different name is a pretty pathetic attempt to disguise one's true history. I don't think it takes a great leap of imagination to assume you've retrieved enough photographic records, old vivisections and such to raise the alarm bells that this "refugee race" is distressingly similar to the Shakturi referred to in the recovered archives.

Also, the information recovered from the old archives is difficult to discount as trustworthy in a game sense. Since each race recieves a bonus or penalty to their morale when the heroic or otherwise history of the race is revealed, it's implied that these records are unquestionably accurate. Were it not the case, then the Boskara player could simply refute the accuracy and ignore any morale penalty. But they can't.

Heaven forbid I wage war on all semi-sentient life. Not true! I wage war on all life equally, regardless of their level of sentience!

quote:


Yeah, that is my liberal/pacifistic until I can expand without trouble/bleeding heart problem.
After I knew who they were I just leaved them alone until they come to my side for the Grat War.

But that also is not exactly correct from an external point of view.


Well, when I'm playing a 4X game "in character", I look upon it as "what's best for my race". Winning or losing a war can mean the difference between your race spreading its seeds through the stars, or becoming nothing more than a taxidermist's hobby project for a bored alien conquerer. Given man's willingness to kill each other due to differences in skin colour, religious belief, political affilation and any number of excuses we've used historically, I figure that it's quite reasonable that questioning the morality of a conflict will factor into the political equation even less when one is eyeballing the resources that are being controlled by what one might see as nothing more than jumped-up cockroaches.

Of note, I've been playing with the Boskra a lot lately. Hard to beat their torpedoes! Where they're concerned, I propose that it's entirely "in character" to attack without reservation, anyone who has anything you want. Especially if they're sitting on a single planet with paltry defences, which would double your economy with one quick attack.

edit:
Just to clarify - I think Emperor Fred's views on other races is probably closer to the views races will have towards each other, than Gene Roddenberry's. Long live Emperor Fred!

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 4/8/2011 2:44:33 PM >

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 9:12:06 AM   
bertipa

 

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Let's defin esome priority here:

1. I want (WANT!) to enjoy myself playing the game.
2. I like to be "in character", roleplay my part in the game.
3. I don't like to play badly on in an inefficent way to get the two previous points.

If my spies get a wiff of whe the Sakaturi really are it is the game that should point this out.

I still point out that the Ancient Guardians are much more a suspect than a few poor refugees.

If I declere war on them on sight I will easily win and that is bad for point 1.

But knowing at the player level who they are makes it really difficoult to roleplay correctly and this is bad for point 2.

quote:

Well, when I'm playing a 4X game "in character", I look upon it as "what's best for my race".


When they come out I'm usually well on my way to win (and I have already anything that I could 'want') so I think that I have done well for my race but for the point 1 P.O.V. the final percentage points to get to victory are usually the most boring. A good end of game galactic war against a worty adversary is good.

quote:

Given man's willingness to kill each other due to differences in skin colour, religious belief, political affilation and any number of excuses we've used historically, I figure that it's quite reasonable that questioning the morality of a conflict will factor into the political equation even less when one is eyeballing the resources that are being controlled by what one might see as nothing more than jumped-up cockroaches.


Point is that colony spamming brings more money and resources than war and as war is about money and resources the reason to do it is weak (even a little psycopath) at best.

All that I ask is a good war for good reasons: defending the galaxy from the bad guys is a good war, robbing a planet from a potential ally for resources that I can get by colonization or mining without problem is not.

That said I'm just telling that maybe colonization and mining is too simple and that maybe there are too resources. On the other hand we are speaking about a galaxy here, there are limits about how much you can resonably limit resources.

P.S. I have not yet looked out what weapons my ships are using. Design and war has been left to the AI(just dubled the warp engines for the colony ships at the start of the game). To win at DW that seems a little pointless.

P.P.S. The most difficult part of playing DW is answering the advisor 'suggestions'. The wrong click and you have started a poitless war or at the least lost valuable relation points.

P.P.P.S. I'm using too much the word point.

< Message edited by bertipa -- 4/12/2011 10:22:29 AM >


_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 4:39:54 PM   
fix_account_please

 

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You mean I am not the sakatauri?

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 4:48:40 PM   
Data


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You are not even yourself atm ...no harm intended

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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 4:51:13 PM   
cookie monster


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The games called Return of the SHAKTURI!

It's pretty easy who the bad guys are.

Also yes the game is easy to win by colony spamming as the Humans on default level.

Try the same with Races native to Volcanic/Ocean/Ice planets and you will find most of the colonies gone.

Make the other races OLD/MATURE most of the colonies are gone.

Make the research cost high as in 600K and you will find you cant research the colonisation techs quick enough, and by the time you do it's too late to be useful. Only use is it increases development level for some other planets.

So yes on normal the game is easy, adjust the settings and make a more difficult game.

If you wanna difficult game take a look at my thread ''Generating a difficult game'' on p2 of the main page.

(in reply to fix_account_please)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 6:37:46 PM   
bertipa

 

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quote:

The games called Return of the SHAKTURI!

It's pretty easy who the bad guys are.


Yup, the point was that it is too easy. More than that the point was that the Great War vs the Sakaturi is really entertaining and it is a pity that it becomes banal after a couple of time.
BTW I was not just a critic, I offered ideas on how to solve that (positive thinking!).

I will check your thread. But my point was not exactly that the game was too easy but that was winnable by a ripetitive, brainless strategy. For me that is a problem. I am posting ideas on that also (more positive thinking!).
I have no problem in winning easy, I'm playing more to roleplaying my civilization than anything else( when I want to go destroy the enemy I can just play chess, there you have no roleplaying to do, just destroy the enemy) but that does not mean that it should not be amusing.

To make myself clear: I rarely play Civilization at the maximum difficulty because to win there you have to optimize so much that it is not anymore a "simulation" of the world history but more a minimax of resources, an exercise in optimization. I refuse to guide a Civilization even more inhuman that the Soviet Union in their worst moment.
I come more from a role-playing game background (so I lost CIV 1/2 and MOO 1/2) and problems about morality and "out of character" situations are probably more important for me than for someone who maybe came from a more strategic background.

As i'm thinking about that I'm posting my ideas here, to see if there is anyone else who think the same.
More, think that if that limits of the game will be solved it will make a better game and the simulationists who want to make their game very difficult will lose nothing.



_____________________________

From the Regina subsector to the Sakaturi base... a long and fulfilling trip.

(in reply to cookie monster)
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RE: Ethical question: MAYOR SPOILERS - 4/12/2011 7:21:59 PM   
Data


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quote:

As i'm thinking about that I'm posting my ideas here, to see if there is anyone else who think the same.


Aye, you're not alone. I like both sides: optimization and pushing the limits of the game but also (and even more) RPing and ethical dilemas. Games are not only fun, they are also tools for one's development (in whatever area he wants).

_____________________________

...Igniting stellar cores....Recharging reactors...Recalibrating hyperdrives....

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