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RE: Welle 16 to 35

 
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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/17/2011 8:37:05 PM   
ColinWright

 

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...

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 6/23/2011 4:24:18 PM >


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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/17/2011 8:37:34 PM   
Telumar


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The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.



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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/17/2011 9:04:20 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.




I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule. BAR could also have a bipod. Would that make it a LMG? Soviet's would put two LMG in a squad. Would it be a heavy squad because of the two LMG? Also, the Soviet LMG was drum fed not belt fed. It gets very confusing if you are trying to pin down water with a thumb tack.

BTW, heavy MG is also a very squishy term.

< Message edited by Panama -- 5/17/2011 9:05:05 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/17/2011 10:02:15 PM   
ColinWright

 

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Then there are all the 'soft' factors.

Like, I read a very convincing argument a few years back that unlike most armies, the Germans tended to treat the rifle squad as a support system for the MG34/42 -- with happy results for its effectiveness.  If everyone's lugging ammunition for the machine gun, then it has twice as much ammo, and can fire twice as much.

So I make ordinary German rifle squads heavy rifle.  Not because the MG34 was so much better than the Bren -- because it was used better.  For those two MG panzergrenadier sections, I use a 'Schutzen' squad I've dreamed up (5 AP, if I recall aright).

Conversely, the troops in question may have been too inept to do more than hold their ground -- or saddled with some unreliable weapon like old Lewis guns.  Or chronically short of ammunition, or whatever.  So even if an MG is technically present, I may make the squad light rifle.

At the other extreme, while I've never worked with the Japanese, I have the impression they were fanatically aggressive but prone to take extravagantly high casualties. So whatever the 'hard' TO&E, I might look at using 'Assault recon teams' or something for their squads. If I recall aright, much lower defensive value -- and hence losses should soar. If that's not the case, I might make it the case...

How many Nambus they actually had per platoon is a consideration, but not the only one.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 5/17/2011 10:05:17 PM >


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Post #: 34
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/17/2011 10:29:23 PM   
ColinWright

 

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My point is that looking at the physical equipment a force holds can't be rigidly respected.  After all, one does want to wind up with a unit that performs about as its historical counterpart did.

I've been working a lot with the various forces involved in the various goings on in the Middle East in World War Two -- and generally, with a bit of fudging, I can get about the right level and type of performance.  Like 'light rifles' for the Italians -- whatever they may have actually had.

In some cases, though, the TO&E has to go right out the window.  Like, the Iranian army of 1941 actually had somewhat more modern weapons than the rather second-line British forces that attacked it.  New Skoda 105's versus 18 pdrs, etc.

However, that doesn't matter.  To actually get a force that behaves about like the Iranian Army of 1941 did, I have to ignore the TO&E entirely and just make up their units out of a mixture of 'irregular' and 'civilian' squads.


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Post #: 35
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 4:06:57 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Good points Colin. We've thought about this and are including footnotes with submissions, so we will have toe's 'based on historical references' and maybe we should also include those, for example, 'modified for Sealion' (or whatever scenario) so that designers can have a reference point. Really, all submissions can be included, but should have some reference attached. That said, I personally would like to avoid those toe's that were 'created' because of a lack of historical data at the time of creation (if such examples exist), if only because we might not want to include anything that could be misleading (and have it taken as based on something official).

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Post #: 36
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 4:18:28 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Based on the very good points mentioned in a few recent posts, maybe the baseline should be modified to:

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = mmg's, or squads with additional miscellaneous firepower.

HMG's are included in all three databases so could be added individually.

I don't think the above modification would force Fred to redo his welle information as the Germans did use their mg's in a 'heavy' capacity, as Colin also explained. But that is up to Fred. He's the one with all the welles in his head.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 4:24:46 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule.


We're not, and we're not suggesting we are. Our intention is to provide templates for future use, as opposed to the alternative of starting from scratch. Sometimes finding 'scratch' is chore enough.

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Post #: 38
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 1:56:31 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Based on the very good points mentioned in a few recent posts, maybe the baseline should be modified to:

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = mmg's, or squads with additional miscellaneous firepower.

HMG's are included in all three databases so could be added individually.

I don't think the above modification would force Fred to redo his welle information as the Germans did use their mg's in a 'heavy' capacity, as Colin also explained. But that is up to Fred. He's the one with all the welles in his head.


You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario, don't you? You may want to add certain designer comments like i.e. Colin's in the previous posts in addition to those comments that 'explain' a specific unit's/formation's TOE/OOB itself.

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Post #: 39
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 2:09:05 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.




I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule.


I haven't said that..

..but yes. Given the generic character of the database and Norm's spartanic comment in the .doc certainly not.


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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 3:11:29 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario,


I was very much hoping to avoid it as I see a document becoming an uncontrolable monster of much confusion. I'm hoping it will be manageable with simple footnotes. Additionally, Klink is soon to start a dedicated thread, and then there will be the ability to ask questions anyone might have with the contributors having the option to answer.

quote:

I haven't said that..


I know, I was responding to Panama's comments so that he would have a clearer idea of what we are doing.

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Post #: 41
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 3:25:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Then, of course, you have the issue of how many men are in the squad. That varies quite a bit. I tend to build units on a per-man basis. That's easy to do: Just put the stuff you're going to include in the unit into a pile, stir, and build standardized squads out of the pile. You end up with a suite of squads in the unit, but it gives you finer control of the unit's overall strength.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 5:14:19 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario,


I was very much hoping to avoid it as I see a document becoming an uncontrolable monster of much confusion. I'm hoping it will be manageable with simple footnotes. Additionally, Klink is soon to start a dedicated thread, and then there will be the ability to ask questions anyone might have with the contributors having the option to answer.

quote:

I haven't said that..


I know, I was responding to Panama's comments so that he would have a clearer idea of what we are doing.


Exactly where is the TOE project located?

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Post #: 43
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/18/2011 9:30:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

...you have the issue of how many men are in the squad...


Based on multiple submissions from multiple sources, I think this aspect is beyond the scope of the project. The thinking is that designers will be able to take a template and then adjust that template accordingly, based on intent and test results.

quote:

Exactly where is the TOE project located?


It's not available yet, I've got two of the files and Klink has the other. The plan is to start the dedicated thread (soon), receive submissions, add those to what we have, then decide what to do with them.

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Post #: 44
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/19/2011 8:56:27 AM   
polarenper


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16th Welle and the Blue Division done.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/20/2011 7:45:53 AM   
sPzAbt653


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The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 5/20/2011 8:17:37 AM >

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/20/2011 2:10:23 PM   
Telumar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?


Niehorster lists only three artillery battalions (one light, two med) for the 13. Welle: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_id_13-welle.htm and three medium battalions for the 14. Welle.

One exception (from 13. Welle) i know of is 319.Inf Div occupying the Channel Islands which had a IV. Abteilung in its Artillerie Regiment from December 41 onwards. But initially it too was raised with three Abteilungen.


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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/20/2011 8:31:29 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar...319.Inf Div occupying the Channel Islands...



319.Infanterie Division. Gotta remember that number. If I'm ever involuntarily reincarnated as a German infantryman of the Second World War and asked what division I want to be in, that would be the one.


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

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Post #: 48
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/20/2011 9:37:14 PM   
polarenper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?


13th welle:
- Artillerie-Regiment: 3 leichte Abteilungen mit je 2 Batterien tschechischer Geschütze,
keine schwere Abteilung.


Slight hiccup with my cutting and pasting. Ever so sorry.

When the divisions formed they included an artillery regiment with three battalions. Each battalion had two batteries, making 8 tubes, for a total of 24 for the regiment.

Telumar is correct in that the 319th received more guns later in it's career. It also received a tank unit and an anti-tank unit, both equipped with captured French tanks. I did not include these, as i would never be able to finish this thing if i tried to trace all variations. I'm trying to stick to the TO&E at the time the divisions were mobilized.

Also, note that both the 13th and the 14th welle were eventually sent to the eastern front. Before moving they were upgraded to combat ready divisions, which would have brought them closer to the TO&E of a 1st welle division. I don't have any sources for which divisions got what though.

14th welle:

Abweichung in Gliederung und Ausstattung:
- Wie Divisionen 13. Welle
- Ausstattung mit französischen und anderen Beute-Kfz., Artillerie mit älteren deutschen Geschützen

See above.

15th welle:

oops...

Here is the link to the corrected PDF.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 5/21/2011 12:11:57 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

...i would never be able to finish this thing if i tried to trace all variations. I'm trying to stick to the TO&E at the time the divisions were mobilized.


I think that is perfect, plus you put that explanation in the document, which will be attached to the file, plus there are footnotes in the files.

Thanks very much for the clarifications.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/21/2011 7:57:02 PM   
polarenper


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Some progress at last. Another welle or two. More to come when time allows!

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/23/2011 1:26:43 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway. :D

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst


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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/23/2011 4:42:25 AM   
sPzAbt653


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A couple clarifications when you get a chance, pages 69 and 72 both concern the 17.Welle. I was wondering if one was the 17th and the other the 18th, or if the 17th had two separate TOE's. And the division for the page 69 formation maybe should have 18 assault squads and 42 light rifle squads?

Thanks Fred

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Post #: 53
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/24/2011 9:12:35 AM   
polarenper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway. :D

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst



Oberst, i've been meaning to ask; did you work in Obolon? If so, i visited your old job a few weeks ago.

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Post #: 54
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/24/2011 9:32:11 AM   
polarenper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

A couple clarifications when you get a chance, pages 69 and 72 both concern the 17.Welle. I was wondering if one was the 17th and the other the 18th, or if the 17th had two separate TOE's. And the division for the page 69 formation maybe should have 18 assault squads and 42 light rifle squads?

Thanks Fred


The second 17th welle is the 18th welle. Fixed.
As for the second error, it concerns the 17th welle. Those divisions should indeed have 18 Assault squads, and 42 Light rifle squads.
Thanks for catching those!

Updated version (including a few more formations) can be found here.


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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/24/2011 3:16:58 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway. :D

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst



Oberst, i've been meaning to ask; did you work in Obolon? If so, i visited your old job a few weeks ago.


They opened the 2nd IH Kiyiv branch in 2007, I was 'based' near the KPI and lived between Nivki and Svertoshin Metro station.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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Visit the Gefechtsstand!

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Post #: 56
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/24/2011 5:17:35 PM   
polarenper


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I had a choice between the two branches. KPI was too far away for me, so i went to Obolon. Did you meet someone named Vika while you were there? She's the DoS these days, and in charge of the course they've sent me on.

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Post #: 57
RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/25/2011 1:48:48 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Clarification - the Welle 20 Artillery Regiment lists 8-250's and 24-105's, while the division lists 12-150's and 36-105's.

Regiments for the No Welle divisions 343-348 (starting on page 80) have 9 'extra'? bicycle squads.


< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 6/25/2011 2:31:39 PM >

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/25/2011 2:47:45 PM   
polarenper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Clarification - the Welle 20 Artillery Regiment lists 8-250's and 24-105's, while the division lists 12-150's and 36-105's.

Regiments for the No Welle divisions 343-348 (starting on page 80) have 9 'extra'? bicycle squads.



The regiment listing is correct. The division should have 8 150's and 24 105's. The extra bicycle squads are from the Recon battalion, i simply forgot to add them to the total, which should be 27 bicycle squads.
Thanks again for the proofing!

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RE: Welle 16 to 35 - 6/25/2011 3:16:48 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

The division should have 8 150's and 24 105's.


The same with the 338.Inf (page 88). I got it here, but mentioned it so you can change the .pdf.


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