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RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think

 
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RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/3/2011 3:49:57 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2922
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

To hell with pirates and hackers who have brought our hobby to this point.


Oddly enough, I've had some bad DRM issues in the past that were solved with a simple No-CD hack, because the DRM software was preventing my game from playing or, worse, causing harm to my hardware.

There are actually people who would label me as a pirate for doing that. It's surprising to see how some of these DRM defenders can toss such accusations around, and sleep well at night, but they're becoming fewer and fewer; Or maybe just less open about it.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 31
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 12:25:05 AM   
Greybriar


Posts: 620
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).




_____________________________

This war is not about slavery. --Robert E. Lee

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 32
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:50:22 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6358
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).






That is pretty standard for any EULA. Otherwise it would open them to all sorts of potential law suits.
Read the World of Warcraft EULA sometime, it does not offer an guarantees either. It does not even offer compensation for your monthly subscription if the servers go down.
It also states that Blizzard can at any time revoke your service or shut down the entire game with so many days notice.
If you read the EULA for any game with an online component it says they can shut down the online component after a certain time. For most sports games it is 365 days after a game is released. For Starcraft 2 I think it was also 12 months after the game has been released.

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.

(in reply to Greybriar)
Post #: 33
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:51:04 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 2552
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
I dunno Greybriar. This clause is pretty extreme too:

quote:

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of software and other content and updates onto your computer ("Software"). You may not use the Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.



So basically, to summarize this clause: you agree to relinquish control of your computer to them.

The other one that is pretty remarkable I thought:

quote:

10. EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES

A. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY -- STEAM AND THE SOFTWARE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT. BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.

B. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY--MERCHANDISE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT WITH REGARD TO ANY MERCHANDISE YOU PURCHASE VIA STEAM AS YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY, IN ADDITION TO THE REMEDIES EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN SECTION 3(C), VALVE MAY INCLUDE IN ITS OPTION THE RIGHT TO PAY TO YOU THE AMOUNT OF DIRECT DAMAGES ACTUALLY INCURRED BY YOU IN REASONABLE RELIANCE ON SUCH MERCHANDISE, AS LONG AS THAT AMOUNT DOES NOT EXCEED THE AMOUNT YOU PAID VALVE FOR THE MERCHANDISE GIVING RISE TO THOSE DAMAGES.

THIS SECTION WILL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

11. INDEMNIFICATION

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Valve, its licensors and their affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use of Steam or any Subscription or any related content, or any User Generated Information, including, but not limited to, the creation, distribution, promotion and use of any Mods, by you or any person(s) using your Account. Valve reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Valve in that matter. This Section regarding Indemnification shall survive termination of this Agreement.



So, supposedly, before you can play (lets say) Civ5 or Fallout New Vegas, or a variety of other third party games that have no affiliation with Valve whatsoever, except to set up exclusive authorization/distribution deals with them, you first have to agree to Steams EULA and install the Steam Client App. By doing that, you are agreeing that, if Steam screws up and your game is corrupted and unplayable, it is not their fault and you will pay their attorney's fees and court costs should you seek to take action against them!

Yeah right . . . WHY would I EVER want anything peddled by this firm on my machines?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Greybriar)
Post #: 34
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:52:59 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 2552
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
Standard for an MMOG perhaps. Many of the games available on Steam are single player games for which network connectivity is in no way inherent to gameplay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).






That is pretty standard for any EULA. Otherwise it would open them to all sorts of potential law suits.
Read the World of Warcraft EULA sometime, it does not offer an guarantees either. It does not even offer compensation for your monthly subscription if the servers go down.
It also states that Blizzard can at any time revoke your service or shut down the entire game with so many days notice.
If you read the EULA for any game with an online component it says they can shut down the online component after a certain time. For most sports games it is 365 days after a game is released. For Starcraft 2 I think it was also 12 months after the game has been released.

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.




_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 35
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 2:13:59 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6358
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Standard for an MMOG perhaps. Many of the games available on Steam are single player games for which network connectivity is in no way inherent to gameplay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671

....GOOD POST I never read the steamworks EULA I will have to now

All you really need to read in the Steam Subscriber Agreement is section 7.C. which states:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steam Subscriber Agreement section 7.C.

C. NO GUARANTEES.




VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).






That is pretty standard for any EULA. Otherwise it would open them to all sorts of potential law suits.
Read the World of Warcraft EULA sometime, it does not offer an guarantees either. It does not even offer compensation for your monthly subscription if the servers go down.
It also states that Blizzard can at any time revoke your service or shut down the entire game with so many days notice.
If you read the EULA for any game with an online component it says they can shut down the online component after a certain time. For most sports games it is 365 days after a game is released. For Starcraft 2 I think it was also 12 months after the game has been released.

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.





Read the EULA for Microsoft Windows. It has a clause in it which read virtually the same way, offering no guarantees against errors or potential software. Last time I read it is also promises no updates. Again, lowest common denominator.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 36
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 3:00:55 AM   
mullk

 

Posts: 534
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Ohio
Status: offline
Unfortunately the piracy and DRM  issue isn't going to go away.  A long time ago I remember speaking to a sales rep at a conference for a company who developed and distributed computer games.  He sold exactly one copy of this game in Las Vegas NV.  Everyone in town had a copy however and complained bitterly how he was ripping them off because he was charging for what they were getting from their friends for free.  He left the conference and returned to ask his company to no longer support this particular platform for development due to piracy.  I remember early in computer games of titles and companies going under because of lack of sales yet somehow everyone had a copy they got from someone else.  Everyone I knew who was pirating stated that they did it because games were too expensive.  My friends felt the correct price for a game was the cost of the disk only and any other money made was "ripping them off".  Theft is a major issue everywhere.  I didn't believe this until I worked retail and saw the MASSIVE amounts stolen from every store I ever worked in.  As for the argument that stealing software isn't stealing something is plain foolish.  We buy goods and services in our daily lives and software is a service.  Programs don't grow on trees, someone writes them often for money.  Stealing a service is still stealing.

As for steam, the computer isn't the same one your doing your work on I hope.  If it's another computer take it to a friend/family member and log on and take it to offline mode.  If you have a friend with in WIFI range see if they will let you piggy back their connection on a separate computer for a portion of their internet bill.  If you can't have any connectivity in the house get a laptop you can easily take out and connect with for authentication.

If possible install a second line for internet access for the non work machines that is completely separate from the work network. If the work network is non cable see about installing a cable modem. You can discuss it with your work to insure their happy as well.

< Message edited by mullk -- 4/4/2011 3:05:17 AM >

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 37
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 3:59:22 AM   
bean5671


Posts: 89
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class,
Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it
I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file
With Autodesk it was always concurrent use if you had enough licenses for all the people who used it you could have it installed on every machine
even if you only owned one as long as that one license was not being used twice at the same time anyone could use it.

I was a big gamer and still have a ton of older titles that work thank you matrix for WIR.
Most of the pirates I knew back in the day either would not have bought the game anyway or just cracked it for the thrill
it seems they are going a bit overboard and are pushing people who would buy to pirating I know I will never buy a steam/EA/UBISOFT game if my kids buy one I will just crack it and install the crack
I will still buy it but if more people are feelling like I do then I think the game industry is creating their own perfect storm. They always said piracy hurts sales but it never really did not much anyway, if things keep moving in this direction it will become more of a problem not less
More people would rather play a cracked game because it has less hoops to jump through and is less restrictive

kids and life took me out of gaming other than matrix/paradox/stardock I have not purchased a mainstream game for a long time. However my kids are getting old enough to want the AAA titles so I will have to figure out something


(in reply to mullk)
Post #: 38
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 6:17:14 AM   
Ellsid


Posts: 24
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline
I used to be a total war fan but with the last 3 titles requiring steam, I was not game(no thank you sir or mam!) All DMR has done was eliminate the used game market and made all sales a guaranteed one time deal.

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 39
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 10:53:45 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
I've been playing Steam games for years now and love it. No CDs. That's the best part. If my comp goes bust I can just redownload everything on my new comp. For example, I have several Steam games on my laptop.(Thank you Matrix for letting me play Distant Worlds and Storm over the Pacific without discs).

I have been unable to install or play several games because the disc was lost. No problem with that in regards to Steam.

Will it ever go belly up? I have no clue. But one thing I do know, I am not so attached to computer games that I will be crushed if I can't use the system anymore.

Hell, I wanted to play Half Life 2 a couple of weeks ago and since I bought it when it first came out it was on my Steam account so I just clicked "Install" and there I went!


_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Ellsid)
Post #: 40
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 11:33:43 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

I have som architect friends who have worked with pirated autocads for ten years now with som addons. One of them sayd he payed two beers for one of his friends to copy it for him originally. Official versions are so expensive they are not even thinking of buying them.

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to bean5671)
Post #: 41
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 11:49:35 AM   
I.C.

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
With STEAM and other forms of DRM the consumer has no rights whatsoever and we agree to this by accepting the EULA.
If this were a loaf of bread or a service the outcry would make world news. If a software product can be deauthorized, then by law consumers should have the right to refund.

It is entirely possible for a vendor or publisher to refund a purchase by deactivating the software through the DRM. STEAM should and can make refunds. As always, the power lies with the us, the customers. Use it or lose it.



(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 42
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 12:00:50 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2277
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

There is a flip side of the coin. The majority of revenue goes to people who are not involved into development, but merely pay royalties to studios, don't hesitate to dumb down games for the sake of higher profits, and invent business models to eliminate intermediate trade and second hand market, while contiuously delivering less to the customer. Regarding these facts, tell me who is more detrimental for our hobby: pirates or the copyright industry?

I think that it's the gaming industry who did most damage as pirates are already factored in the business. At some point in 2000s making niche games that get sales like 100,000 or 200,000 copies (for example cRPGs like Fallout or Temple of Elemental Evil) stopped being a viable option because it wouldn't be possible to find a publisher or even retailers for them despite that these games did bring income. It's just not enough for the industry. That's why Sir-Tech died, Troika died and classical games like Fallout and X-Com get FPS "re-imaginings" done by "fans of the series".
Besides niche publishers and indies it's all about dumbing-down and pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's about ever increasing returns from investments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off. But then there is this long-term dimension too. I suppose that eventually MOST games become abandonware, though some probably have far more market longevity than others.

Personally, I hate one subgroup of pirates - the "why should I pay if I can get it for free" types. It's basically as if they have some rules that forbid them to pay for software. Personally, I know only two such people, though.

Ironically, I'm more annoyed that a lot of people who I know don't wait with purchase until games are sold in less expensive editions. I know some people who are partially supported by parents, have no savings, and still are ready to spend their last money on some new game. It's so irresponsible. Not to mention that it's unpatriotic. Wasting their hard work on buying expensive digital copies (which will become worth many time less in several years) from over-privileged countries instead of building the wealth of their own family/nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

Unfortunately the piracy and DRM  issue isn't going to go away.  A long time ago I remember speaking to a sales rep at a conference for a company who developed and distributed computer games.  He sold exactly one copy of this game in Las Vegas NV.  Everyone in town had a copy however and complained bitterly how he was ripping them off because he was charging for what they were getting from their friends for free.  He left the conference and returned to ask his company to no longer support this particular platform for development due to piracy.  I remember early in computer games of titles and companies going under because of lack of sales yet somehow everyone had a copy they got from someone else.  Everyone I knew who was pirating stated that they did it because games were too expensive.  My friends felt the correct price for a game was the cost of the disk only and any other money made was "ripping them off".

Wow. Just wow. I have never met such weird people in my whole life. I mean, how is it even possible? What is this, I don't even

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

Theft is a major issue everywhere. I didn't believe this until I worked retail and saw the MASSIVE amounts stolen from every store I ever worked in.

Taking in account the above, somehow I'm not surprised. Have you ever considered moving?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

As for the argument that stealing software isn't stealing something is plain foolish. We buy goods and services in our daily lives and software is a service. Programs don't grow on trees, someone writes them often for money. Stealing a service is still stealing.

Software isn't a service. Writing software on order is a service. Pirates don't order software therefore they don't get the service. You're trying to name something as something that it isn't to make it look worse than it is. What's the point of it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

I have som architect friends who have worked with pirated autocads for ten years now with som addons. One of them sayd he payed two beers for one of his friends to copy it for him originally. Official versions are so expensive they are not even thinking of buying them.

The price of Autocad is insane. My mother's company hired a person to draft by hand for years after we got a computer because we weren't able to afford Autocad or even any alternative. Finally, when 4 years ago my mother had to replace drafting by hand because customers wouldn't accept plans that weren't done on computer, I have searched for a reasonable alternative and I have found QCad which costed me 24 Euro. I use it to this day.

I think that people who get really hurt by the "I can't afford it so I'll pirate" thing is the companies that produce less expensive alternatives and developers of free alternatives that simply get marginalized. Personally, I use Linux instead of Windows (too expensive and less user friendly than it used to be), Open Office instead Office (again, too expensive) and QCad instead of Autocad (insanely expensive).

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/4/2011 12:12:33 PM >


_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

(in reply to mullk)
Post #: 43
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:36:10 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
Its amazing how cluless about law some people are,....especially consumer laws. Almost EVERY single civilized nations has consumer proctection laws that mean these EULA's are worthless. You can not sign away certain rights,....and in fact there is no signature on a EULA, thereofore IT IS NOT A BINDING AGREEMENT.


This is exactly the same as the signs on the back of a coal hauling or gravel hauling trucks which reads "Driver not responsible for damage caused by debris falling from vehicle." In reality the driver (or owner) of the truck is 100% liable for any damage anything that falls out of their truck does. BUT the sign is believed by many idiots who wont even try to get their windshield fixed if something flies out of the truck and cracks it.......becasue the sign says so. A sign cannot override the law........just as a EULA cant overide the many consumer protection laws...............but a lot of people believe the EULA is as biniding as the law,....it isnt,....its just a tool to try and convice people that they dont actually have any rights,.....so they wont stand up for them.

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 44
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:46:23 PM   
I.C.

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Its amazing how cluless about law some people are,....especially consumer laws. Almost EVERY single civilized nations has consumer proctection laws that mean these EULA's are worthless. You can not sign away certain rights,....and in fact there is no signature on a EULA, thereofore IT IS NOT A BINDING AGREEMENT.


"I saw in another topic a couple people arguing about whether an EULA was a legally binding contract. My brother in law is a lawyer and I just asked him about whether an EULA is a legally binding contract. He said that if it states specifically in the EULA that by clicking the accept button, you agree to everything in the contract, then yes, it is in fact legally binding. It WILL hold up in court too if there was ever a need for it. An EULA is no different than a contract a movie star agrees to when they are hired to shoot a movie. Just because you don't physically sign something, it is still legally binding. However if you are not forced to look at and click accept on the EULA before using a product, then it is not legally binding. Here is something I found while doing some digging after I talked to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement#Shrink-wrap_and_click-wrap_licenses

I point you to this paragraph in particular, under the section "Shrink Wrap and Click Wrap Licenses":

Further, in ProCD v. Zeidenberg, the license was ruled enforceable because it was necessary for the customer to assent to the terms of the agreement by clicking on an "I Agree" button in order to install the software. In Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp., however, the licencee was able to download and install the software without first being required to review and positively assent to the terms of the agreement, and so the license was held to be unenforceable.

Because Zeidenberg had no choice but to click Accept on the EULA before using the product, then it is a valid legal contract. However Specht was able to use the software without first agreeing to the EULA, and thus the EULA is not legally binding. I also found out that if a minor child clicks Accept on an EULA and then does something to violate the terms, the parent or legal guardian then takes full responsibilty. Anyway just wanted to clear that up."

Source:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/988968-/58415129

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 45
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 1:59:25 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
Ask your brother in law lawyer about invalidating a contract. He will inform you that one single item in a contract that is not legal invalidates the entire contract. All EULA's contain the statement that the company that made the software is not responsible if that software damages your PC. THAT is illegal,....that is a right you can not sign away. That invalidates the EULA. So yes,....while a lot of whats in the EULA is valid,....and while clicking on the EULA is a valid way of entering a contract,...whats IN the EULA invalidates it. Thats how consumer law makes a EULA worthelss. You can not have a person sign away their right to sue tyou for negligence. Even if they sign a contract stating just that,...the contract is worthless.


Now I must ask you,......if it is shown that it is possible to use software through cracking where you dont have to click on the EULA,....exactly how is a company going to prove that I didnt do just that,...and therefore never clicked on their EULA,...therefore it isnt binding. AllI have to do is state that I never clicked on it,....prove I did. If I say I did not, then proof that I did must be shown.

SO by your own post it shows that EULA's can be circumvented legally. Not the way I am showing, but still a valid method. Useless is useless no matter why.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/4/2011 2:02:33 PM >

(in reply to I.C.)
Post #: 46
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 2:05:56 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2277
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Ask your brother in law lawyer about invalidating a contract. He will inform you that one single item in a contract that is not legal invalidates the entire contract. All EULA's contain the statement that the company that made the software is not responsible if that software damages your PC. THAT is illegal,....that is a right you can not sign away. That invalidates the EULA. So yes,....while a lot of whats in the EULA is valid,....and while clicking on the EULA is a valid way of entering a contract,...whats IN the EULA invalidates it. Thats how consumer law makes a EULA worthelss. You can not have a person sign away their right to sue tyou for negligence. Even if they sign a contract stating just that,...the contract is worthless.

EULAs usually state that these limited warranty paragraphs don't apply to states/countries where one can't sign away his customer rights.

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(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 47
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 2:24:18 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

EULAs usually state that these limited warranty paragraphs don't apply to states/countries where one can't sign away his customer rights.



And that is the same as the sign on the truck. The contract is a whole document,. you cant pick and choose which parts of it to enforce. If it part of it is illegal in a certain state or country,...then the entire EULA is invalid in that state or country. BUT wait a minute. Let me add something here. I am basing this off of a lawsuit I went through over 20 years ago. A contract dispute. Sadly,....its possible,...and the way things have been going, likley,.... that the laws have changed in that time. I know most laws passed in that time concerning consumer proctection have only weakened the conumers rights and made it easier for corporations to screw over the consumer and get away with it.,.......so it would not surprise me if the laws have changed and I am wrong,....as I said a good bit of time has passed.



And lets also not forget,...at least in the US,........judges cant even agree on what some laws mean,...so its possible that another judge would give a far different ruling.

There are so many different ways a EULA can be legally attacked who knows which ones are valid and would work, and which ones wont.



What it REALLY comes down to is a EULA cant overide the law. The law will protect most poeple from getting screwed over.

To the guy who initially started this thread- you bought the software knowing it needed steam to work. If you didnt know it needed steam thats your fault for not reading the required system specs for the game. By modifying the software without permission, you did violate the terms of the EULA,...terms a court will hold up. You dont own the software,...just as you dont own a leased car. You cant modify the software, just as you cant modify a leased car.

BUT since you are doing no harm to the company, and are not costing the company any sales, they wont bother with you aside from the bannings on the forums. Which can be easily fixed by creating another account. So you have the games and can play them. You can still get on the forums if you really want...................I dont see a problem.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/4/2011 2:32:47 PM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 48
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 4:26:16 PM   
bean5671


Posts: 89
Joined: 5/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

EULAs usually state that these limited warranty paragraphs don't apply to states/countries where one can't sign away his customer rights.



And that is the same as the sign on the truck. The contract is a whole document,. you cant pick and choose which parts of it to enforce. If it part of it is illegal in a certain state or country,...then the entire EULA is invalid in that state or country. BUT wait a minute. Let me add something here. I am basing this off of a lawsuit I went through over 20 years ago. A contract dispute. Sadly,....its possible,...and the way things have been going, likley,.... that the laws have changed in that time. I know most laws passed in that time concerning consumer proctection have only weakened the conumers rights and made it easier for corporations to screw over the consumer and get away with it.,.......so it would not surprise me if the laws have changed and I am wrong,....as I said a good bit of time has passed.



And lets also not forget,...at least in the US,........judges cant even agree on what some laws mean,...so its possible that another judge would give a far different ruling.

There are so many different ways a EULA can be legally attacked who knows which ones are valid and would work, and which ones wont.



What it REALLY comes down to is a EULA cant overide the law. The law will protect most poeple from getting screwed over.

To the guy who initially started this thread- you bought the software knowing it needed steam to work. If you didnt know it needed steam thats your fault for not reading the required system specs for the game. By modifying the software without permission, you did violate the terms of the EULA,...terms a court will hold up. You dont own the software,...just as you dont own a leased car. You cant modify the software, just as you cant modify a leased car.

BUT since you are doing no harm to the company, and are not costing the company any sales, they wont bother with you aside from the bannings on the forums. Which can be easily fixed by creating another account. So you have the games and can play them. You can still get on the forums if you really want...................I dont see a problem.


Scott

I did not buy it my 15 year old son did at a retail store he did not know steam would not work
I tried to return it they would not take it back or refund my money it was not my fault
so your saying I can not make it work, they will not take it back, so,what do I do? I do not want to break the law but I want the game to work or my money back and I can modify anything that is on my PC period dont like it sue me or dont sell it to me
how about this I write my own EULA for any thing that installs on my pc that gives me the right to modify anything on a machine I own just by installing on my machine you give me the right to modify LOL I hand this doc to every retail sales clerk that rings me out funny idea I might try it



< Message edited by bean5671 -- 4/4/2011 4:31:39 PM >

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 49
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 4:50:18 PM   
mullk

 

Posts: 534
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

There is a flip side of the coin. The majority of revenue goes to people who are not involved into development, but merely pay royalties to studios, don't hesitate to dumb down games for the sake of higher profits, and invent business models to eliminate intermediate trade and second hand market, while contiuously delivering less to the customer. Regarding these facts, tell me who is more detrimental for our hobby: pirates or the copyright industry?

I think that it's the gaming industry who did most damage as pirates are already factored in the business. At some point in 2000s making niche games that get sales like 100,000 or 200,000 copies (for example cRPGs like Fallout or Temple of Elemental Evil) stopped being a viable option because it wouldn't be possible to find a publisher or even retailers for them despite that these games did bring income. It's just not enough for the industry. That's why Sir-Tech died, Troika died and classical games like Fallout and X-Com get FPS "re-imaginings" done by "fans of the series".
Besides niche publishers and indies it's all about dumbing-down and pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's about ever increasing returns from investments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Personally, I have great loathing for people who do not want those who worked to produce a title to get paid and are willing to rip them off. But then there is this long-term dimension too. I suppose that eventually MOST games become abandonware, though some probably have far more market longevity than others.

Personally, I hate one subgroup of pirates - the "why should I pay if I can get it for free" types. It's basically as if they have some rules that forbid them to pay for software. Personally, I know only two such people, though.

Ironically, I'm more annoyed that a lot of people who I know don't wait with purchase until games are sold in less expensive editions. I know some people who are partially supported by parents, have no savings, and still are ready to spend their last money on some new game. It's so irresponsible. Not to mention that it's unpatriotic. Wasting their hard work on buying expensive digital copies (which will become worth many time less in several years) from over-privileged countries instead of building the wealth of their own family/nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

Unfortunately the piracy and DRM  issue isn't going to go away.  A long time ago I remember speaking to a sales rep at a conference for a company who developed and distributed computer games.  He sold exactly one copy of this game in Las Vegas NV.  Everyone in town had a copy however and complained bitterly how he was ripping them off because he was charging for what they were getting from their friends for free.  He left the conference and returned to ask his company to no longer support this particular platform for development due to piracy.  I remember early in computer games of titles and companies going under because of lack of sales yet somehow everyone had a copy they got from someone else.  Everyone I knew who was pirating stated that they did it because games were too expensive.  My friends felt the correct price for a game was the cost of the disk only and any other money made was "ripping them off".


Wow. Just wow. I have never met such weird people in my whole life. I mean, how is it even possible? What is this, I don't even

People swapping software happens all the time your not aware of this??? Back in the early days of home computers clubs were set up that made an industry of software piracy.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

Theft is a major issue everywhere. I didn't believe this until I worked retail and saw the MASSIVE amounts stolen from every store I ever worked in.


Taking in account the above, somehow I'm not surprised. Have you ever considered moving?

I have been around the world and theft is a major issue everywhere. While I'm not a major fan of Wal-Mart it reports thefts of billions of dollars every year. Most theft is employees unfortunately. Some of my coworkers in the past felt they were under paid and felt theft was OK as they felt they were entitled to steal as they were underpaid. I think this view is vile but it is the feeling of some folks out their.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

As for the argument that stealing software isn't stealing something is plain foolish. We buy goods and services in our daily lives and software is a service. Programs don't grow on trees, someone writes them often for money. Stealing a service is still stealing.

Software isn't a service. Writing software on order is a service. Pirates don't order software therefore they don't get the service. You're trying to name something as something that it isn't to make it look worse than it is. What's the point of it?

The service to me is the writing of the software. Again software doesn't grow on trees so someone had to write it. Just because you didn't order the service doesn't mean it's not a service. The service is worked in advance and people pay for the service when they use the fruits of that service. When you buy the software you provide money to the programming team, publisher, shippers, warehouse and retail employees who are trying to earn a living.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: bean5671
I have been out of the loop for to long
I bought my first PC in 86/87 a 386 sx moved to a 486dx2 in 89 that was my first gaming machine That machine was how I got my first real job ironically because I had pirated Autocad and wrote a little addon for my high school drafting class, Softdesk bought it from me really they hired me but the program came with me, back than it was a sweet deal for a high school junior. Crazy how 20 years ago I did pirate a program and got hired for it but now I am not pirating but are paying the price for it I moved to Autodesk after the merger and have been in the IT/GIS industry ever since.

Funny Autodesk was/is one ofthe toughest on pirates but they have not gone to these levels and still dont and last i looked a copy of REVIT or Catia cost between 6000 and 10000 dollars a license but are very easy to install heck its just a license file

I have som architect friends who have worked with pirated autocads for ten years now with som addons. One of them sayd he payed two beers for one of his friends to copy it for him originally. Official versions are so expensive they are not even thinking of buying them.

The price of Autocad is insane. My mother's company hired a person to draft by hand for years after we got a computer because we weren't able to afford Autocad or even any alternative. Finally, when 4 years ago my mother had to replace drafting by hand because customers wouldn't accept plans that weren't done on computer, I have searched for a reasonable alternative and I have found QCad which costed me 24 Euro. I use it to this day.

I think that people who get really hurt by the "I can't afford it so I'll pirate" thing is the companies that produce less expensive alternatives and developers of free alternatives that simply get marginalized. Personally, I use Linux instead of Windows (too expensive and less user friendly than it used to be), Open Office instead Office (again, too expensive) and QCad instead of Autocad (insanely expensive).



< Message edited by mullk -- 4/4/2011 4:53:29 PM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 50
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 6:49:27 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2277
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

People swapping software happens all the time your not aware of this??? Back in the early days of home computers clubs were set up that made an industry of software piracy.

It was a reply to the bold part. The part about people thinking that they get ripped off if games aren't free. I find it very... exotic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I have been around the world and theft is a major issue everywhere. While I'm not a major fan of Wal-Mart it reports thefts of billions of dollars every year. Most theft is employees unfortunately. Some of my coworkers in the past felt they were under paid and felt theft was OK as they felt they were entitled to steal as they were underpaid. I think this view is vile but it is the feeling of some folks out their.

I they felt underpaid why didn't they go on a strike?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

The service to me is the writing of the software. Again software doesn't grow on trees so someone had to write it. Just because you didn't order the service doesn't mean it's not a service. The service is worked in advance and people pay for the service when they use the fruits of that service. When you buy the software you provide money to the programming team, publisher, shippers, warehouse and retail employees who are trying to earn a living.

The amount of service done isn't increased by someone playing a pirated version of the game, so it's still morally irrelevant unless additional circumstances occur (like the "you're ripping us off because it's not free" stance or "why should I pay for anything if it's available for free" stance).
You could as well claim that writing a book is a service and anyone that uses libraries (doesn't pay for that service) is stealing.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/4/2011 7:05:45 PM >


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(in reply to mullk)
Post #: 51
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 7:56:13 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2922
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From: Murderous Missouri Scum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.



In the past, sure. Nowadays some companies are using it to rewrite their own version of customer ownership laws.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 52
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 8:18:22 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2277
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

EULA's do not mean a company is evil or trying to screw you. They have to be written in order to satisfy the lowest common denominator. Which is to protect the company and it's employees from litigation.



In the past, sure. Nowadays some companies are using it to rewrite their own version of customer ownership laws.


Yes the thing is that they can now literally pull the plug on the software and that part of EULA is

As for the protection from litigation - it's not always a good thing. There were at least two games who had uninstallers that wiped out the users hard drive (one was Blood & Magic demo. It removed partition from my hard drive. Twice. Another was Pool of Radiance 2). Then there were optical disk drives damaged by Starforce (IIRC one of the forum users suffered from it).

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(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 53
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/4/2011 8:23:07 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2922
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Then there were optical disk drives damaged by Starforce (IIRC one of the forum users suffered from it).


I did, for one.

Still have that DVD-RW drive stashed away somewhere. A slow, premature death. I've never seen a drive behave like that until after installing Starforce's top secret ninja drivers. Crazy.

I've also had a few other DRM related issues over the years, so I tend to be pretty vocal about the subject.

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 54
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 2:26:31 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 2552
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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My understanding is that a EULA is a legally binding contract. I suppose that doesn't mean that any grievance would automatically be tossed out if it was in contradiction to the EULA. But it might mean that a particular judge would tend to find in favor of the EULA writer and not the user. There is no way to know how that might turn out until a grievance actually wound up in court. One possibility would be that the user(s) lodiging the grievance might get nothing or even have to pay the attorney fees/court costs, as the Steam EULA seems to be suggesting. Another possibility is that a judge would find that that was in breach of fundamental consumer rights and it wouldn't be decided that way.

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(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 55
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 6:30:59 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
Reading this makes me happy that I've been reading PC Gamer for the last 20 years. Their game reviews have not lead me wrong, especially with DRMs. Actually, it's from them I learned about Starforce. I feel sorry for StarDock, they are always getting confused with StarForce.

This thread is getting long, it's getting about that time for a spam bot to copy and paste a random post from here.......


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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 56
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 7:14:55 AM   
E

 

Posts: 787
Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
You could as well claim that writing a book is a service and anyone that uses libraries (doesn't pay for that service) is stealing.


Bad analogy. Libraries aren't free (They are paid for by taxes).


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(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 57
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 7:30:45 AM   
Orm


Posts: 6526
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JosEPh_II


Very interesting debate and situation. And it emphasizes exactly why I, personally, will Never get a steam acct no matter how good the game is.

I will never play Civ V, even though I have hard copies of II, III, and IV, plus the expansions. They killed the series for me.

God Bless the indie developers and Long may they Live!

JosEPh


I agree.

(I even have 2 copies of Civ III because the CD became damaged.)

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Post #: 58
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 7:51:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 19477
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

This thread is getting long, it's getting about that time for a spam bot to copy and paste a random post from here.......



Okay then - random post: Name that song from which the lyrics below come from?

What are those dogs doing sniffing at my feet
They're on to something, picking up
Picking up this heat, this heat

Give me *****
And how you feel to make it real
Real as anything you've seen
Get a life with this dreamer's dream



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(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 59
RE: *RANT* about STEAM let me know what you think - 4/5/2011 10:22:38 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

This thread is getting long, it's getting about that time for a spam bot to copy and paste a random post from here.......



Okay then - random post: Name that song from which the lyrics below come from?

What are those dogs doing sniffing at my feet
They're on to something, picking up
Picking up this heat, this heat

Give me *****
And how you feel to make it real
Real as anything you've seen
Get a life with this dreamer's dream





You got me on that one!

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 60
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