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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front!

 
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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:25:39 PM   
abulbulian


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OMG here we go again.

Berkut, it's nothing to do about 'fanboyism'. My opinion is that this situation of masses of tanks or planes not being utilized for either the Axis or Soviet player would be a problem.

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.

That was my experience months ago when I tried to prove that blizzard conditions were unrealistic. Just happens that v1.04 proved I was on to something and yes I'll say 'I told you so'. No surprise that it's some of the same people again trying to say.. 'no problems...don't change anything'.

Just please be accountable and state your case as to why you think pools of tanks are acceptable. Don't just say.. it's ok and it's as designed. There have been things as designed in many cases that have not been correct... it does happebn.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 3/29/2011 10:27:34 PM >

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 31
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:33:06 PM   
jzardos


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Although I was not part of the forum at the time, I do remember reading those posts that got a bit heated. There are those people that just have to argue to argue, maybe they have nothing better to do. It's ok to be loyal to a product, but some people are so blinded by WitE or kissing ass too much to be objective when some real issues seem to pop up. Personally I think the forum is a place to discuss these issue and NOT just DISMISS them as some of you just want to do so quickly.

I will look in some books tonight and see how realistic it would have been for maybe not enough tank crews around and thus Germany maybe could get a surplus of these newer tanks. This maybe be a much harder fact to locate in one night.

But if that is the case that trained tank crews were in short supply, then I think we don't have any issue and WitE is properly representing the realism of the time.

(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 32
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:48:46 PM   
marty_01

 

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Out of more curiosity -- but is the force pool image showing the glut of Tigers in pool from a solitaire game?  What is the context of this equipment detailing figure?  I'd imagine if I was in a 42 to 43 game as the Germans I'd be moving my Hvy Tiger Battalions around so much that there would be a large number of Tigers in the breakdowns or damaged column of the equipment read out. 

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 33
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:51:41 PM   
Lrfss


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Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned

In particular since we cannot modify production itself in any way!

I would guess if someone took a poll around here, it would read by a huge percentage in favor of doing all three items indicated above! Of course if done, it should be so if you chose not to manage these items that could be controlled by the AI as well...

(in reply to molchomor)
Post #: 34
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 11:13:22 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?


Well take a guess... it's neither. It's how the game works, and you can be as rude as you want about it, it won't change a thing, unless devs decide to change the basic design which at this point is very unlikely to happen. Posting stuff like the quote above will only make *you* look stupid. I personally don't care....

quote:

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.


In real world those tanks "collected and not utilized" (I guess unitized is a typo) were probably utilized, used, and spent through combat. If you don't use them, and you don't spend them through combat - guess what? They will pile up in the pool, becuase this game is TOE based. TOE is god, and TOE won't change just because you have X of Y in the pool. That's just how the game works, and it's pretty obvious....

(in reply to jzardos)
Post #: 35
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 11:26:15 PM   
Speedy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.


Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.

Of course in an ideal world with flexible TOE's and production/upgrades etc you could of course claim this was NOT WAD but that is not the case for WitE as has been designed and is known.

_____________________________

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(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 36
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 12:13:05 AM   
PyleDriver


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Don't get frustrated guys. I brought up the tiger issue in testing, I wasn't sure either. Once agian this is a vast game, with many complex issues. Bring things up to Joel, he has the best ear and is willing to change things as needed to make it more historical.

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
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(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 37
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 12:19:04 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?


Well take a guess... it's neither. It's how the game works, and you can be as rude as you want about it, it won't change a thing, unless devs decide to change the basic design which at this point is very unlikely to happen. Posting stuff like the quote above will only make *you* look stupid. I personally don't care....

quote:

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.


In real world those tanks "collected and not utilized" (I guess unitized is a typo) were probably utilized, used, and spent through combat. If you don't use them, and you don't spend them through combat - guess what? They will pile up in the pool, becuase this game is TOE based. TOE is god, and TOE won't change just because you have X of Y in the pool. That's just how the game works, and it's pretty obvious....


They could always commit the units to combat turn after turn. That will shrink the pool.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/30/2011 2:08:06 AM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 12:20:58 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.


Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.



Very true. Doesn't stop the whiners though.

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Post #: 39
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 1:10:49 AM   
Wild


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So true Aurelian.
Trey has already explained it's WAD and why. Which by the way is quite logical and understandable.
Unfortunately judging from past experience on this forum, logic will fail to get through to people who believe they know everything about the eastern front. They think everything should be done their way or the whole game is broken.


(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 40
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 1:13:13 AM   
Berkut

 

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So I am guessing that everyone would be a lot happier if the game engine had code that just didn't build more Tigers if they were not needed to fill TOE?

Then there would not be this horrific travesty of Tigers (or dear Lord Tigers! Good thing they are not King Tigers! Imagine the outcry then!) sitting in the "pool" waiting to be needed?

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 41
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 1:14:52 AM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

If people think it's perfectly acceptable/plausible in WW2 that the German or the Soviets would not have the ability to staff all the tanks being produced or find a way to increase TOE to accommodate the extra production and thus have these surpluses. Or maybe people think neither county needs the EXTRA tanks in the field? I for one think your nuts if you have these types of beliefs.

But people like Berkut are either thinking this or are just so indifferent to the game mechanics that they 'could care less'. It's a fair question as to why 200 tigers could be accumulated. But as always in the forum you have those people that will continue to say 'no problem here... it's WAD'.


Well TBH it is WAD. The game model, as everyone who has bought this game knows, is for historical production (as Trey pointed out) with fixed land upgrades. As such IMO what is being seen here is WAD. If x elements in x units utilise heavy tanks and they're full to capacity the excess will sit in the pool.



Very true. Doesn't stop the whiners though.



What is really bizarre is they Trey just explained why this was so, and THAT didn't even stop anyone from complaining!

Heck, the game is giving you MORE flexibility than is historically accurate by spreading Tiger production out evenly, rather than weighting it toward the latter part of the war!

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 42
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:08:44 AM   
marty_01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned


I do have in-game control over unit TO&E. It's part of the game. Or at least it's part of my WiTE game. I just can't increase TO&E, but I do have some control over it.

In terms of historical examples, I vaguely recall that some German units -- on rather rare occasions and for limited periods of time -- did operate above official TO&E. But the historical context of the like, at least in the German army of WWII, tended to be relatively rare. For example I think the Hitler Jugend Division was above official TO&E prior to the invasion of Normandy by something like 120% or there abouts. The divisional glut of manpower and equipment didn’t last much after the 6th of June. I think the 2nd Panzer Div might have been slightly above TO&E prior to the invasion as well (maybe I am remembering that wrongly). Aside from that my memory cells are drawing a blank on historical examples of German units operating above official TO&E. There just wasn't enough stuff to go around.

It makes the in-game Tiger Tank equipment pool picture posted on the previous page seem that much "wierder" (probably not a real word but what the heck). It's why the context of the posted image would be nice. The context may be everything and knowing the context of the thing should in-theory make this thing repeatable. If it's not repeatable than what are we looking at? It just seems unlikely from my own head to head game experiences. Or maybe it's just me that goes through tanks in this game like nobodies business (it's sorta like tank wastage in the actual event).

Having said all that, I think if there was a bunch of extra equipment laying around, one would assume the Germans would have injected it into either creation of new combat units, or into fleshing out TO&E of existing units -- assuming trained manpower was available to operate the equipment glut (not an insignificant factor -- not that it takes a brain surgeon to drive a tank or be a loader. But fighting a tank and keeping it running is a bit more of a skill). I just hate the thought that potential combat power is laying about unused somewhere. If equipment gluts can occur naturally within the game -- and the gluts aren’t the result of a odd coding anomaly and also assuming that image we saw wasn’t from a very odd solitaire game (what’s the context), why not give the player the ability to use his TO&E slider to up unit strength to 110% or 120%? The unit TO&E adjuster is already in the game and is in player control. It's just that it only goes downward from 100%. Like I say it would be rather unusual for a German unit on the East Front to be operating above 100% TO&E, but a division operating above 100% is not completely without some historical precedent. It would be err uhh “realistic” -- there’s that word again. I dont think it particularly critical in the least to have this capability at my game playing finger tips. I'm just tossing out some random thoughts on the TO&E player controled slider thingy and the what-if aspect of having a glut of equipment.


< Message edited by marty_01 -- 3/30/2011 2:20:41 AM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:27:05 AM   
bednarre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

Clearly we should "if" we choose, be able to modify the TOE (both sides) and allocate as we see fit equipment from the pool....why not??? And if not the first at least the second part of the aforementioned


I do have in-game control over unit TO&E. It's part of the game. Or at least it's part of my WiTE game. I just can't increase TO&E, but I do have some control over it.

In terms of historical examples, I vaguely recall that some German units -- on rather rare occasions and for limited periods of time -- did operate above official TO&E. But the historical context of the like, at least in the German army of WWII, tended to be relatively rare. For example I think the Hitler Jugend Division was above official TO&E prior to the invasion of Normandy by something like 120% or there abouts. The divisional glut of manpower and equipment didn’t last much after the 6th of June. I think the 2nd Panzer Div might have been slightly above TO&E prior to the invasion as well (maybe I am remembering that wrongly). Aside from that my memory cells are drawing a blank on historical examples of German units operating above official TO&E. There just wasn't enough stuff to go around.

It makes the in-game Tiger Tank equipment pool picture posted on the previous page seem that much "wierder" (probably not a real word but what the heck). It's why the context of the posted image would be nice. The context may be everything and knowing the context of the thing should in-theory make this thing repeatable. If it's not repeatable than what are we looking at? It just seems unlikely from my own head to head game experiences. Or maybe it's just me that goes through tanks in this game like nobodies business (it's sorta like tank wastage in the actual event).

Having said all that, I think if there was a bunch of extra equipment laying around, one would assume the Germans would have injected it into either creation of new combat units, or into fleshing out TO&E of existing units -- assuming trained manpower was available to operate the equipment glut (not an insignificant factor -- not that it takes a brain surgeon to drive a tank or be a loader. But fighting a tank and keeping it running is a bit more of a skill). I just hate the thought that potential combat power is laying about unused somewhere. If equipment gluts can occur naturally within the game -- and the gluts aren’t the result of a odd coding anomaly and also assuming that image we saw wasn’t from a very odd solitaire game (what’s the context), why not give the player the ability to use his TO&E slider to up unit strength to 110% or 120%? The unit TO&E adjuster is already in the game and is in player control. It's just that it only goes downward from 100%. Like I say it would be rather unusual for a German unit on the East Front to be operating above 100% TO&E, but a division operating above 100% is not completely without some historical precedent. It would be err uhh “realistic” -- there’s that word again. I dont think it particularly critical in the least to have this capability at my game playing finger tips. I'm just tossing out some random thoughts on the TO&E player controled slider thingy and the what-if aspect of having a glut of equipment.





The German player can currently create new fortified region units. Why not allow the capability for him/her to create new support units? If the Germans got such an excess of Tigers, would they not have created more heavy panzer battalions? This would simplify the software changes, instead of the super TOE modifications?

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:48:17 AM   
marty_01

 

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Beats me.  You may have a point.  I haven't foggiest in what comes into play in coding terms as to when certain support units become available in certain HQs.  It's still sort like Christmas for me when I see a support unit becoming available to one of my German Corps or Army HQs. One Admin Point for a Neblewerfer Regiment -- such a bargin.  I'm still waiting for a two-for-one sale to really stock up on rocket launchers 

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:57:06 AM   
Mynok


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That's an interesting idea about creating support units. Seems reasonable to be able to create a heavy tank battalion or two with those. Would have the drawback of leaving future replacements low for existing heavy units, but that's a trade off that could be argued the player should be allowed to make.


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:17:54 AM   
Berkut

 

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It seems odd to me that everyone assumes the correct "fix" to this problem involves using those Tigers in units in some fashion.

Considering that the developer just stated that the problem, such as it exists, lies in the Tigers being available in the pool when they really should not be available at all (since production is evenly spread out, even when the units that use them are not really in existence yet), why haven't those so terribly concern with "historical WW2 eastern front" argued that the code should simply be modified to remove the Tigers from the pool before they should be there to begin with?

Would that not solve the problem in the most historically accurate manner possible?

Another bonus to this solution is that it would not even have to be implemented, since you get almost THE EXACT SAME EFFECT by just not having the units available to place the Tigers in until their "historical WW2 eastern front" date is reached!

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 4:00:58 AM   
Aurelian

 

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http://www.alanhamby.com/tigerfibel.shtml

Your owners manual.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 5:13:15 AM   
2ndACR


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I wish I had more control over creating units, keeping units versus withdrawl or better yet, having the ability to upgrade or not upgrade to next TOE change. I could have 1/2 divisions at 45 TOE and the other 1/2 at 42 TOE if I wanted them to be.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 49
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 10:39:45 AM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

No, those pools are specifically for the Eastern Front and Jim would have to give you the specifics on the production model. My point is that it is difficult to first of all figure out exactly how many units of x went to Russia. Anybody have the exact number of 105mm Howitzers or the number of Bf-109G6s that were sent to Russia as replacements during the entire war? We know about how many total were produced during the war and then we have to strip out the number of units were shipped with reinforcing units and thus leaving us with a rough number of units that were shipped as replacements. Then we say that x % were shipped East and then we average that number over the number of months of the conflict. This doesn't model any production that increases or decreases over time as it is just an average so it would be a lofty goal to make a production model that is dynamic enough to model the complexities of historical production. Not being defensive here but production is a tough one and compromises were made to make a game. There is so much information that is hard to obtain that you end up making educated guesses. Try figuring out the German manpower situation in 1941. Thats a fun on too.

Trey



Using average numbers for production probably made the game easier to design and to code. So it was the right decision to take.

OTH, fixed average production numbers don’t represent German weapon allocation for the Eastern front, which was not very steady during the war. Tanks were held back to equip new units instead of strenghtening those up front. The decision maker’s strategic outlook about a quick victory in the East in 1941 influenced weapon allocation in the Führer state considerably, as well as changing the strategic Schwerpunkt towards Western Europe in late 1943. So, for the East replacements there were considerable ups and downs from month to month. No fixed replacement percentage for the 1941-1945 time span possibly could represent this. Arguably, the percentage of East replacements out of the total German production pool, could have reached its peak in 1942 and 1943, after the sure bet Barbarossa was fought with older use-w/o-replacement-weapons (Verbrauchsgerät) and before the strategic reorientation.

But collecting valid data about East-only weapons allocation IS a royal pain. FREX, apparently valid allcation numbers for field and AT guns in 1941 just don’t exist. Until Oct. 1941 those (well known) losses more or less were made up from general-quartermaster’s pool plus by transfers from Commander Ersatzheer and from Quartermaster West. From then to the end of the year losses simply weren’t made up, because it was planned to repatriate most Ostdivisions after the expected victory without their heavy equipment and their heavy weapons. This material was to make up losses in the occupational forces remaining in the East. Bottom line: No exact numbers for 105 mm howitzer replacements for 1941.

Sources:
Bernhard R. Kroener, Die personellen Ressourcen des Dritten Reiches im Spannungsfeld zwischen Wehrmacht, Bürokratie und Kriegswirtschaft 1939-42 [Third Reich’s personnel ressources between Wehrmacht, bureaucracy and war economy], in: Deutschland und der Zweite Weltkrieg, vol. 5.1, pp. 693-1001, esp. p. 867.
Ibd., p. 868. Rolf-Dieter Müller, Das Scheitern der wirtschaftlichen "Blitzkriegstrategie" [The failed economic Blitzkrieg strategy], in: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Vol. 4, Der Angriff auf die Sowjetunion, pp. 936-1078, see pp. 974-975. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2684171&mpage=1&key=�


As for German manpower situation in 1941:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2696271&mpage=1&key=�

Regards

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 50
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 10:42:24 AM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Love the details in WitE with all the equipment. However, it sucks that one can't control it a bit more. Really would love to send these 105mm AA guns to the front to actually be used rather than watch them sit an collect dust in some warehouses? A real shame. Maybe in 1.05 we can spend some APs to adjust TOE to some extent and use all the pools of equipment better.





________________________________________________ Pool _____________ In Units




As an out-of-the-closet flaming 'axis fanboy' this is breaking my heart.
T-34's 'say hello to my little friend'. If you can point an 88mm at tanks, why not a 105mm. Just give it the right optics!
Help me Obi-Wan (Joel)


10,5 cm Flak 38(39) was indeed planned for field use. But it soon was discovered that it was to heavy for this role: 10,2 tons in fire position, 14,6 tons on the move. (8,8 cm Flak 18: 5,1 tons in fire position, 6,8 tons on the move). The 10,5 cm Flak needed a special trailer with onboard elevator and pulley to be made fire ready. 1850 pieces were built. Rarely the 10,5 cm Flak was used up front, even much less so in an anti-tank role. Mostly it was used in fixed positions around German cities.
Source: Chris Bishop (Ed.) Weapons of WW 2, p. 153.



< Message edited by wosung -- 3/30/2011 10:43:44 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:18:44 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I wish I had more control over creating units, keeping units versus withdrawl or better yet, having the ability to upgrade or not upgrade to next TOE change. I could have 1/2 divisions at 45 TOE and the other 1/2 at 42 TOE if I wanted them to be.


I am very glad this level of control is NOT available. Quite simply, it allows the player way too much ability to optimize, while ignoring the real life reasons such things were not done.

There is a reason units have TO&E, and it has to do with much more than just economics and logistics. It also has to do with consistent doctrine, tactics, and employment of resources. The German military of WW2 was already incredibly inefficient in these factors, with specialized units all over the place with varying TO&E, and it hurt them in many ways. There was no consistency in capability, supply needs, spare parts, etc., etc. between what should have been similar units.

Allowing the player to "tweak" this even more would just give the players even more ability to ignore the real life limitations. You know what would happen - players would just optimize the fighting formations at the expense of the more static formations. That isn't a bad thing in theory (lord knows the Germans and Russians did just that) but I don't think it should be allowed to be done anymore than was actually done. JMO of course.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 52
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:34:50 PM   
marty_01

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 2/10/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

It seems odd to me that everyone assumes the correct "fix" to this problem involves using those Tigers in units in some fashion.

Considering that the developer just stated that the problem, such as it exists, lies in the Tigers being available in the pool when they really should not be available at all (since production is evenly spread out, even when the units that use them are not really in existence yet), why haven't those so terribly concern with "historical WW2 eastern front" argued that the code should simply be modified to remove the Tigers from the pool before they should be there to begin with?

Would that not solve the problem in the most historically accurate manner possible?

Another bonus to this solution is that it would not even have to be implemented, since you get almost THE EXACT SAME EFFECT by just not having the units available to place the Tigers in until their "historical WW2 eastern front" date is reached!



I'm all for not having 200-tiger appear in the player force pool if they arent actually supposed to be appearing there -- for whatever reason. If the pool represents equipment being employed in tiger battalions that are currently triaining or whatever, then maybe it would be best to not show the like in the force pool. It makes people think -- as this thread clearly demonstrates -- that the game code is somehow leaving alot of combat power sitting around in storage shed somewhere in Germany. If this had been two-hundred 75mm Pak guns sitting about in the poll the original poster probably would have skimmed right past it and never thought twice about it. However, there is always going to be some panzer bean counter that looks at how many virtual Panthers and howmany virtual Tigers and how many virtual Tiger-IIs they have -- so he can tell his friends or whatever. As soon as they see what looks like 200 imaginary tigers lounging around the pool in Germany -- of course they are gonna raise a rockus. And they should raise a rockus so we can all have this disscussion and so we all know why 200 virtual tiger tanks seem to be doing somethng other than driving around Russia looking for T34s to thrash. I don't care if I have control over German or Russian in-game production and am happy with not having to deal with production in-game. But most of us want to know that the in-game production feature is taking care of us and that we don't have to worry about the thing.

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 53
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:39:26 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1399
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
The production system in WitE, taken as a whole, works well. This isn't "War in Europe" (I remember the "Production Spirals" fondly). When someone creates a computerized version of that game, with a valid AI, you can control production of units 'till your hearts content. Until then, we have what we have. If Gary ever designs a comprehensive WitE + WitW, the production system, taken as a whole, will make more sense.

War in Europe

Brad

_____________________________

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester
WitE Research Team
WitW Research Team

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 54
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 2:45:58 PM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline
The basic problem is that there is only so many "shells" that can hold Tigers in the game.

In the real world(tm) any nation would make more "shells" if there was a surplus of stuff to put in to the "shells", be that humans or materiel.

If there was 200 tigers or whatever tanks collecting dust then I would be quite certain that they would either be used in newly formed "shells", remade into something else that could be used or smelted to reuse the metal in them.

In the game you can only use wehatever you have, so use the Tigers untill there is no surplus.


What the game might need is some "What if"-units that can be bought if you feel like it. Use AP like the USSRplayer.


NB.: A "shell" can be a unit ranging in size from Company to Division"

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 55
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:02:43 PM   
Berkut

 

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Joined: 5/16/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Derfel

The basic problem is that there is only so many "shells" that can hold Tigers in the game.




Well, no - the basic problem is that the games production system averages out production over the production life of the item, rather than tracking ACTUAL production which almost certainly varied greatly, and likely (at least for something like a Tiger) was heavily weighted toward the middle and end of the production life cycle.

So you end up with more Tigers being produced early in its production life than were actually produced, and hence some overbuild, with the surplus sitting in the pool until the shells come into the game that can hold them.

What is funny about the claim that this is a travesty because it is ever so historically inaccurate to have the number "200" in a pool that doesn't effect the game in any way whatsoever, is that the "solution" being demanded is that the user should be allowed to use them in combat units. Which most certainly WOULD be historically inaccurate!

Which is more historically accurate - 200 Tigers that never existed running around blowing up T-34s, or the number "200" sitting on a page somewhere that has zero effect on the game at all, and represents Tigers that were not actually built yet, but will be in the future...you know, when they were actually built?

The production system is a system that combines an somewhat abstract production model with nominally historical arrival dates for the units that use that production. The problem is that people are looking at just a portion of the system, the production model, ignoring the other part of the system, the historical arrival dates of the units that consume what is produced, and then deciding that there is some terrible injustice because there are some bits and pieces produced that they cannot use RIGHT NOW.

Those Tigers don't exist yet. Ignore them. Be happy when you get the units that use them. Until then, it doesn't mean anything that they are "in the pool".

(in reply to Derfel)
Post #: 56
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:06:38 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
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200 Tigers that don't exist, UNLESS you take heavy losses or need to rebuild a unit that got swallered whole by a big ol' bear and suddenly they're in the game despite not having "been built" yet.   I'll take 200 in the pool over 0 and be **** grateful. 

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 57
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:07:52 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
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If the developers all decided that this really was a problem, and went to the trouble of fixing it properly...the net effect on the game would be almost identical to what we have right now.

In the particular case, that would mean that those Tigers would never be seen in the pool until the units that use them have been created.

It does NOT mean that everyone would get to play with Tigers that were never actually built at the time in question.

I am sure there are plenty more examples of this non-problem, that are not fwapfwapfwap PanzerTigerUber and hence not noticed. I would bet (gasp! Teh horror!) some of those examples are even...wait for it...in the Soviet pool.

The system as a whole (combining production rates and dates with unit arrival and withdrawal rates) works just fine, so far as we know. I, personally, would MUCH rather see development cycles spent on improving aspects of the game that actually matter beyond some numbers on a report that don't mean much in the context they are being incorrectly used.

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 58
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:08:59 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

200 Tigers that don't exist, UNLESS you take heavy losses or need to rebuild a unit that got swallered whole by a big ol' bear and suddenly they're in the game despite not having "been built" yet.   I'll take 200 in the pool over 0 and be **** grateful. 


Bingo.

This is the only legit "historical" complaint to the current design. The fact that they are in the pool means they are available to be used as replacements when in fact they perhaps should not be - this is gravy for the German player.

(in reply to Baron von Beer)
Post #: 59
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/30/2011 3:14:15 PM   
Baron von Beer

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/18/2003
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But all that said, you can't honestly say the idea of an SS Panzer Division filled out with 200 Tigers doesn't make your barrel elevate. 

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 60
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