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Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front!

 
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Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 7:21:13 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

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Love the details in WitE with all the equipment. However, it sucks that one can't control it a bit more. Really would love to send these 105mm AA guns to the front to actually be used rather than watch them sit an collect dust in some warehouses? A real shame. Maybe in 1.05 we can spend some APs to adjust TOE to some extent and use all the pools of equipment better.





________________________________________________ Pool _____________ In Units




As an out-of-the-closet flaming 'axis fanboy' this is breaking my heart.
T-34's 'say hello to my little friend'. If you can point an 88mm at tanks, why not a 105mm. Just give it the right optics!
Help me Obi-Wan (Joel)

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< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 3/29/2011 7:31:20 AM >
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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:17:18 AM   
color

 

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It would definitively raise the bling factor of your AA units. Performance wise it was about comparable to the 88 mm FLAK though, with the latter much easier to produce, and mostly it seems it was used in static mounts or on railroad cars.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 2:18:29 PM   
Q-Ball


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They were quite immobile however; really only appropriate for static locations, and in practice, they were not much of a battlefield improvement over the 88.

It hasn't come up much because noone is into 1945, but where they should really be is protecting Germany's cities

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:02:46 PM   
molchomor

 

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Lucky you, I have 200+ tigers out of 300 produced sitting in the pool, with only 6 units interested in using it.

And nothing I can do about it.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:14:30 PM   
jzardos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

Lucky you, I have 200+ tigers out of 300 produced sitting in the pool, with only 6 units interested in using it.

And nothing I can do about it.




Well to me that situation seems like a bug. No way 200 tigers would be sitting around?
That is INSANE!!!
They were sending them to the front sometimes even before they were appropriately painted. Did you file this as a bug with the devs? What the heck is going on with this aspect of the game? How could this not be found in the beta testing phase? Is it regression? What axis player would be ok with 200 tigers sitting in some abstract 'pool'????

HELP US DEVS



< Message edited by jzardos -- 3/29/2011 8:15:09 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:18:22 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

Lucky you, I have 200+ tigers out of 300 produced sitting in the pool, with only 6 units interested in using it.

And nothing I can do about it.




Come on. Please molchomor tell me you're joking about this. Ok, funny haha... now tell me it ain't so??

I'm going to be one pissed off SOB if I get to any point in my game where 200+ tigers are sitting in some damm pool!!! How much sense does that make? ZERO!


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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:21:07 PM   
BigAnorak


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How many Tigers are in the 6 units? What TOE%? What is the max. TOE% of the 6 units. What losses have they suffered.

If there have been minimal losses in the 6 units then no demand exists for replacement tanks to be sent forward.

Provide more data and we may be able to figure out if there is a problem.

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:29:28 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

How many Tigers are in the 6 units? What TOE%? What is the max. TOE% of the 6 units. What losses have they suffered.

If there have been minimal losses in the 6 units then no demand exists for replacement tanks to be sent forward.

Provide more data and we may be able to figure out if there is a problem.



I'm sorry... but throw all this type of logic out and if we can get a screen shot to prove/show 200 tigers in the pool... umm we have a problem with the game. Anything after that with the logic for units and TOE has to accommodate the common sense and reality of the time. WitE is trying to 'keep it real' right? So if the question of would 200 tigers EVER be sitting back in some factory warehouse (pool?) waiting on a unit's TOE to ask for them plausible? Which IMO and knowledge of the eastern campaign it is NOT plausible. Well then the real issue is in the code logic in the game. Cause I can tell you that the German high command would find a way to utilize the 200 tigers ASAP!



< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 3/29/2011 8:30:49 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:35:22 PM   
BigAnorak


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If there are 6 units that use Tigers and they have a maximum capacity of x, and they are holding x then there is nowhere else for spare tanks to go. The game does not create new units to mop up the capacity, nor can players create new units.

There have been threads requesting the ability to change vehicle types manually, in the same way that you can with Aircraft, but I think the response was that this would not be high on the priority list.

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:35:54 PM   
molchomor

 

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Yeah, it sucks.

Also amazing to see that many of my pz. divisions really seem to prefer the T34 and T70, well I guess they get a better deal getting 3-4 T34s than 2-3 Hummels or Wespe which is what the average unit will get as you can see below.

[image][/image]




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< Message edited by molchomor -- 3/29/2011 8:40:26 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:51:51 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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OHH SNAP. There it is. I'm now depressed for the rest of the day. WOW, I really REALLY hope this will be fixed in 1.04? What the heck is going on here? My guess is the logic in WitE does not accommodate the 'common sense' of the times in that these surplus vehicles need to be somehow used on the front or the ability for the axis to create some ADHOC brigades or more SUs? Make it an AP cost to do .. makes sense.

To me this is an example how the somewhat rigid TOE concept can fall on it's face. Because now were out of the realm of a realistic WW2 eastern front game when it comes down to these types of situations. That's my 2cents anyways. It's just too bad.

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 3/29/2011 8:52:41 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 8:58:16 PM   
jzardos


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Wow.  That's no joke.  Without trying to be too confrontational with some that are very much 'in-love' with the game to be objective about these types of anomalies (for lack of better word).  Don't get me wrong, WitE is the best WW2 game I've played to-date.  But this NEEDs to be fixed.  I'm sorry but it's unacceptable for developers to think any axis player would not be pulling his hair our to see these types of pool numbers.  Think about it...

Yes, how did this make it out of beta?  Not trying to offend, just trying to understand and maybe get a reasonable explanation?

Thanks

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:07:16 PM   
abulbulian


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Let me try and explain.  What I believe we have here with the Tigers is a situation where a player is doing so much better than historical that the units that can hold Tigers are full in TOE and thus the pool grows as more are made.  Yes, I do agree it's not realistic in the concept of the Germans not finding a way to utilize these tanks. The problem is the game does not have a way to utilize them and get them to the front. 

So testers didn't really see this as a problem as in most cases the axis player would not have this type of 'surplus'?  Unless there's some regression and some units are not able to receive the tigers as they use to?  That's as much as I know or can speculate on.  

Either way, I'm definitely one that would like to have some flexibility in utilizing my 'pool' more and thus avoiding these types of freakish situations from every arising.  My guess is that 1.04 will not touch this pool area.  Maybe 1.05 will?  Let's hope so.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:13:35 PM   
el hefe


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The problem is figuring out exactly how many pieces of equipment and vehicles got sent to the East as replacements historically and then incorporating those numbers into a production model that changes dynamically with how many of these units are deployed at one time. Not an easy solution here.

Trey

_____________________________

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WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:26:24 PM   
abulbulian


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I think it can be simplified. This is one of those situations where there's no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

On average about 60-80% of all resources went to the east front. However, el hefe, I disgree with you statement as I don't believe any items in the 'pool' are there waiting to be distributed between different fronts (east, west, etc). Are not these pool #'s are specifically for the eastern front???

If we can establish this fact, I think we can both agree it's implausible for WitE to ever build up a pool of 200 tigers that are already slated for deployment to the eastern front. Let's not take the approach here that the game is always right and we need to figure out how to explain away these finding. Let's all please be objective and as such we'll be considerate to the players of WitE. I found that some of the testers and 'helper' devs/coders can be a bit too defensive and less objective at times. Which understandable to occur.



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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:31:13 PM   
jzardos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

Yeah, it sucks.

Also amazing to see that many of my pz. divisions really seem to prefer the T34 and T70, well I guess they get a better deal getting 3-4 T34s than 2-3 Hummels or Wespe which is what the average unit will get as you can see below.

[image][/image]






Molchomor, I think you should file this as a potential bug? Unless somebody can say this is WAD, to which I would argue WTF. Otherwise, it's just going to get swept under the carpet or lost until some other poor sap axis players stumble on it. Also, my guess is the logic is universal with equipment and TOE so there could be similar situations for Soviet players.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:36:05 PM   
Berkut

 

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Hehe, I think it is funny that everyone is so jazzed up about Tigers.

ZOMG! Tigers! (fwapfwapfwap) Me Tigers are sitting there not being used! Get a rope!

Find the units that use Tigers, and commit them to some fighting. Problem solved.

No need to make fundamental changes to the game in order to deal with trivial issues like this - assuming it isn't simply a bug.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:40:01 PM   
molchomor

 

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Yes, all this is as per game design (aka putting historical shackles on even small things like what type of equipment a certain unit gets).

Actually I don't mind my divisions using captured T34/T70s but I only have captured around 50 T34 and 30 T70 during less than one year of fighting (42-43, but I am a lousy player and am losing against the AI). When on the edge, using this type of equipment when better stuff is sitting in the pool feels very sub-par. One would also think that after almost 110+ corps destroyed (not counting divisions and brigades) you would salvage more than that but quite possibly those figures are historically correct? Can't remember reading about captured T34s being shipped to other fronts but hey it could well be what is happening.

Instead of the optional micromanaging of production you had in the predecessor games - you know have the mandatory micromanaging of the command structure and railroads. So lost one but gained two



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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:48:54 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Hehe, I think it is funny that everyone is so jazzed up about Tigers.

ZOMG! Tigers! (fwapfwapfwap) Me Tigers are sitting there not being used! Get a rope!

Find the units that use Tigers, and commit them to some fighting. Problem solved.

No need to make fundamental changes to the game in order to deal with trivial issues like this - assuming it isn't simply a bug.




Well some of us bought this game for a realistic feel for WW2 eastern front. If you're of the opinion that it's 'no big deal' for 200 Tigers or whatever tanks to be sitting around in some abstract 'pool', I guess you're not one of these people. Or maybe you just don't understand that the 'tank' was too valuable of a commodity during WW2 to be sitting around collecting dusts.

But thanks for chirping in with you opinion...

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:49:29 PM   
Red Lancer


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I agree with Berkut & Molkomor this isn't a bug this is as I understand it the game engine working as designed.

Each ground element has a type - Tigers are Heavy Tanks. Each TOE(OB) is created using specific vehicle type e.g. Panther D (Type: Medium Tank) and resupply accordingly - but if there aren't any Panther D s available the engine looks to fill the gap with another Medium Tank type e.g. PzIVg or Panther A etc.

The problem here is that Heavy Tank production is exceeding Heavy Tank attrition as only Hvy Tank Bns and some (elite & SS) Pz Divs use Hvy Tanks. The best approach might be to thrash your Heavy Tk Bns (schwere Pz Abteilung) in repeated combat (or change Tigers to Med Tanks in the generic data files ;) )

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:51:04 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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T-34 is a medium tank, so if a unit needs medium tanks as per its TOE it will use captured T-34s if available. Tiger is a heavy tank, obviously there are no units that require that many heavy tanks as per their TOE, or they don't require that particular model.

If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool.

I too think some posters are making mountain of a molehill. Production system in this game is not there to be tweaked or scrutinized in this manner, TOE and OOB take precedence, so if there is not enough units to use X, you will see X sitting in the pool unused, rather than TOE/OOB changed.

The only way around this would be to give the player ability to build his own units, ie to change TOE/OOB as he sees fit. Germans can't build new units by design and I don't believe it will change. Soviets can build new units, but even they cannot change TOE.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:52:45 PM   
el hefe


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No, those pools are specifically for the Eastern Front and Jim would have to give you the specifics on the production model. My point is that it is difficult to first of all figure out exactly how many units of x went to Russia. Anybody have the exact number of 105mm Howitzers or the number of Bf-109G6s that were sent to Russia as replacements during the entire war? We know about how many total were produced during the war and then we have to strip out the number of units were shipped with reinforcing units and thus leaving us with a rough number of units that were shipped as replacements. Then we say that x % were shipped East and then we average that number over the number of months of the conflict. This doesn't model any production that increases or decreases over time as it is just an average so it would be a lofty goal to make a production model that is dynamic enough to model the complexities of historical production. Not being defensive here but production is a tough one and compromises were made to make a game. There is so much information that is hard to obtain that you end up making educated guesses. Try figuring out the German manpower situation in 1941. Thats a fun on too.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

I think it can be simplified. This is one of those situations where there's no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

On average about 60-80% of all resources went to the east front. However, el hefe, I disgree with you statement as I don't believe any items in the 'pool' are there waiting to be distributed between different fronts (east, west, etc). Are not these pool #'s are specifically for the eastern front???

If we can establish this fact, I think we can both agree it's implausible for WitE to ever build up a pool of 200 tigers that are already slated for deployment to the eastern front. Let's not take the approach here that the game is always right and we need to figure out how to explain away these finding. Let's all please be objective and as such we'll be considerate to the players of WitE. I found that some of the testers and 'helper' devs/coders can be a bit too defensive and less objective at times. Which understandable to occur.






_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:58:03 PM   
molchomor

 

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Just to add what is obvious to anyone who's been playing SF/WiR before - the production screen behavior is identical to these games and also in looks. What I'm boldly implying is that the core logic for this part is still the same some 25 years after SF. There is nothing wrong at all with this except that there was a reason the player was allowed to optionally micromanage more things back then. At least the option to change plane types used by units semi-survived. Not that it matters much with the current state of the airwar (ever seen a tank kill by a Ju-87G in a bomb-unit run made by you?) but nice to have anyway :)

So, these tiger/105mill/whatever issues will keep popping up.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 9:59:57 PM   
marty_01

 

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I personally don't want to micro manage -- or even macro manage production and like that I dont have to be bothered. There is enough game managment issues to keep me occupied. But that's just me.

Having said that, I am curious about the glut of Tiger Tanks. Not cause I go gaw-gaw about the Tiger. It's a large unreliable hog -- IMHO . But it's an easy item to track in terms of historical production figures, availability, historical losses etc.

What is it we are seeing with the German force pool image posted above? Is this supposed to represent Tiger-1 availability on all German fronts. Med -- NW-Europe and Russia as well as training facilities and units in the process of being formed? I'm thinking in terms of: I think the 2by3 designer folks are working toward this game system eventually covering all of Europe. Does the WiTE German Force pool actually represent assets deployed in German Army, SS and training units as a whole. Or is the WiTE German force pool strictly stuff that can potentially be employed or deployed on the Eastern Front?

Just curious.

EDIT: Never mind. I see the answer to my question was posted while I was typying my question.

< Message edited by marty_01 -- 3/29/2011 10:03:20 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:03:24 PM   
molchomor

 

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The pools in the game are only for the East front as stated above.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:12:11 PM   
jzardos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

T-34 is a medium tank, so if a unit needs medium tanks as per its TOE it will use captured T-34s if available. Tiger is a heavy tank, obviously there are no units that require that many heavy tanks as per their TOE, or they don't require that particular model.

If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool.

I too think some posters are making mountain of a molehill. Production system in this game is not there to be tweaked or scrutinized in this manner, TOE and OOB take precedence, so if there is not enough units to use X, you will see X sitting in the pool unused, rather than TOE/OOB changed.

The only way around this would be to give the player ability to build his own units, ie to change TOE/OOB as he sees fit. Germans can't build new units by design and I don't believe it will change. Soviets can build new units, but even they cannot change TOE.



Sorry but what the heck are you talking about? I think you have no idea about what is being discussed. And your explanation of

quote:

"If you want more Tigers to be used, spend some through combat, and replacements will be drawn from the pool."


Is an attempt at a joke right or are you just trying to act like a fool and down play this issue?


No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. Why? Because it just never happened unless maybe we're talking about the United States or late Soviet production in 45. Germany definitely never had the luxury to warehouse hundreds of tanks between 41-45. If somebody can argue this point, then maybe the game is fine as is... good luck doing that.

If this is not a bug and AS designed, then I have to question why the designed allowed for this very unrealistic situation to happen.

< Message edited by jzardos -- 3/29/2011 10:13:22 PM >

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:12:36 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Hehe, I think it is funny that everyone is so jazzed up about Tigers.

ZOMG! Tigers! (fwapfwapfwap) Me Tigers are sitting there not being used! Get a rope!

Find the units that use Tigers, and commit them to some fighting. Problem solved.

No need to make fundamental changes to the game in order to deal with trivial issues like this - assuming it isn't simply a bug.




Well some of us bought this game for a realistic feel for WW2 eastern front.


Yes, clearly if someone doesn't agree with you, then that must be because they DON'T want a "realistic feel for WW2 eastern front". That can be the only possible explanation.

But really - you don't want that anyway. I can assure you that sitting in front of your PC is no way to get a "realistic feel for WW2 eastern front" no matter what PanzerTigerUbertanken tweaking a PC game gives you.

quote:



If you're of the opinion that it's 'no big deal' for 200 Tigers or whatever tanks to be sitting around in some abstract 'pool',


I don't feel it is any big deal because nobody has made a case that it is a big deal, beyond fanboism. Funny that nobody is mortally offended that their Kampfgrupwagen is not properly represented, or their PZ35t. But God Forbid the vaunted Tiger does not get used properly! Of course, we don't even know that it is NOT being used properly.

Someone might say, for example "Holy PanzerStruppen Hans! Why are you letting the UberTankenPanzerenTigers sit there in your force pool! Get those tanks into your front line units and kill some Bolshevists with them already!"

quote:



I guess you're not one of these people. Or maybe you just don't understand that the 'tank' was too valuable of a commodity during WW2 to be sitting around collecting dusts.


I guess I am not nearly the expert that some are in "realistic WW2 eastern front". I am just a guy who plays wargames, sadly. I bow to your superior experience with "realistic WW2 eastern front". How is the frostbite coming along, btw?

quote:


But thanks for chirping in with you opinion...


Anytime, I am here to help! :P

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:17:58 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

No game that is trying to depict the eastern front combat should allow for large surpluses of tanks to be collected and not be unitized. Why? Because it just never happened.



Should the game force the players to not do other things that "just never happened", like letting the Soviets retreat out of pockets in 1941, or allowing the Germans to take Moscow?

If there are a bunch of Tigers sitting in the pool, there are 2 possible explanations:

1. There is a bug, and units that need Tigers are not getting them for some reason, or

2. The player is not using the units that have Tigers in the TOE, and hence there is no need for their replacement, hence they are sitting in the pool waiting to be replaced.

Maybe this is smart play by the player - maybe he is hoarding his Tigers for some sustained offensive. Why assume there is anything wrong without more information?

This is War in the East. Not Sim Eastern Front Economy. The game has plenty enough micro-management, more is not at all needed.

I would MUCH rather see development cycles spent to make the scenario generation more interesting than indulging people in creating fantasy TO&Es for their favorite Uber divisions.

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RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:19:14 PM   
el hefe


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Status: offline
Let me break it down this way ...

All production is averaged per month over the life cycle of that piece of equipment so it doesn't matter if its August 1942 or August 1944, a piece of equipment will generate exactly the same number of units each month.

What does this mean for our Tigers for example. Lets just say that the average monthly Tiger production for our game is 50 Tigers/month and this what the game pumps out each month as replacements into our pool. The first couple of Tiger battalions got sent East in late 1942 and their TO&E allows for around 30 Tigers each (off the top of my head) but the game continues to churn out 50 Tigers a month regardless of how many battalions are in the East. During this time period the player is probably accumulating extra Tigers into his pool. In the later year this has an opposite effect when you have a high number of Tiger battalions deployed in the East but your production is still the same so you are going to start drawing more from that excess pool.

So the bottom line is that with average monthly production you will see a pool accumulate early and then the pool should drain out over time. Over the long term you should have an appropriate amount of units.

Trey



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(in reply to molchomor)
Post #: 29
RE: Please Sir, send the 105mm AA guns to the front! - 3/29/2011 10:20:51 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Let me break it down this way ...

All production is averaged per month over the life cycle of that piece of equipment so it doesn't matter if its August 1942 or August 1944, a piece of equipment will generate exactly the same number of units each month.

What does this mean for our Tigers for example. Lets just say that the average monthly Tiger production for our game is 50 Tigers/month and this what the game pumps out each month as replacements into our pool. The first couple of Tiger battalions got sent East in late 1942 and their TO&E allows for around 30 Tigers each (off the top of my head) but the game continues to churn out 50 Tigers a month regardless of how many battalions are in the East. During this time period the player is probably accumulating extra Tigers into his pool. In the later year this has an opposite effect when you have a high number of Tiger battalions deployed in the East but your production is still the same so you are going to start drawing more from that excess pool.

So the bottom line is that with average monthly production you will see a pool accumulate early and then the pool should drain out over time. Over the long term you should have an appropriate amount of units.

Trey




ZOMG THAT IS SO UNREALISTIC!!!

Thanks for the explanation Trey. :P

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 30
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