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another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 7:45:21 PM   
Arkady


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kick the baby
I'm not sure what else should I do for survive blizzard turns against human player
three infantry divisions in the city, fortified(lvl3) with full ammo, two panzer division in other hex set to reserve and HQ in range
I lost anyway


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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:04:32 PM   
Angelo

 

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Leave a rear guard and retreat, retreat and then retreat some more... seriously, no joke.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:05:30 PM   
Mehring

 

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A couple of points-
I'm not sure that a city necesarily gives a blizzard benefit to more than one or two units, depending on its size. Your tank units in reserve were not commited. You have probably mixed your HQ levels or involved more than one corps as your command bonus is only 70%. Your opponent has comitted over 1000 arty tubes which indicate a lot of support.

Maybe you shouldn't have survived the attack.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:08:32 PM   
Arkady


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it was turn 14 of Typhoon scenario in the city of Kaluga... important VP and orders form OKH was "no retreat"
I hoped to hold it two more turns to secure victory...no it seems that it will be draw thanks to this failure...entire front east and southeast of Kaluga is shattered


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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:12:52 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

You have probably mixed your HQ levels or involved more than one corps as your command bonus is only 70%.

This is your main problem. If all three divisions were from the same corps, instead of three different corps, you would have won.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:13:15 PM   
Arkady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

A couple of points-
I'm not sure that a city necesarily gives a blizzard benefit to more than one or two units, depending on its size. Your tank units in reserve were not commited. You have probably mixed your HQ levels or involved more than one corps as your command bonus is only 70%. Your opponent has comitted over 1000 arty tubes which indicate a lot of support.

Maybe you shouldn't have survived the attack.

yes, units from two corps were involved, my fault
no commitment of tank divisions is the biggest puzzle to me, I need to check manual again how to do it properly

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:17:11 PM   
Arkady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

You have probably mixed your HQ levels or involved more than one corps as your command bonus is only 70%.

This is your main problem. If all three divisions were from the same corps, instead of three different corps, you would have won.

thanks for info,i forgot about it...I need to create some hint sheet to assist me

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:44:30 PM   
Mehring

 

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Not a bad idea. The blizzard is less harsh if you know how to make the best of what you've got. But either way it is harsh.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 8:49:05 PM   
Josh

 

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Yeah but the Typhoon scen. is an exceptionally tough one. I played it a few times to get a feel of the b-b-b-blizzard. First time was a draw, after that it only got worse LOL. Very difficult. Attack as good as you can, use the mud to rest and the snowturn for the last attacks... and then trickle back. No "Kein schritt zurück" , it isn't feasible. You may hold a town or so but it will get swamped anyways.
I think in large cities only the top two units are protected from the blizzard. I think of Typhoon as an SM scenario, only fun if you like pain, with a capital P.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/23/2011 11:59:00 PM   
Altaris

 

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I have to wonder why the dev's leave the +1 Soviet odds modifier in place for the winter? Aren't things bad enough for the Germans CV wise as it is??

I don't particularly agree with the +1 odds modifier in general. I think it's overpowered in 1941, and most certainly it swings thing too far in the Soviet's favor after the initial summer campaign is over. If it just HAS to be in there, what's the point after summer '41 ends?

With that +1 odds modifier in the whole game, that means the Soviets will only ever have to reach a base 1:1 odds to force a retreat (since the +1 will move it to 2:1 odds, which is usually good retreat territory). Just seems off.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 1:03:17 AM   
alfonso

 

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Another way of looking at the same battle

77000 angry Russians with 200 tanks attacked 34000 surprised Germans , poorly equipped for winter warfare, supported by a lousy Stug Battalion. The German units were part of different Army Groups, and they were committed piecemeal, losing in the process much of the advantage of position and entrenchment. Despite their numerical inferiority and utter disorganization, they almost won (162 vs 182).

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 3:46:12 AM   
randallw

 

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Units in reserve mode do not automatically join a battle; they must have enough MPs, and there may be a leader rating check ( if so it's mentioned in the manual ).

For some reason people have trouble getting the reserve units to help in the blizzard; movement penalties shouldn't be huge, last I checked.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 5:46:54 AM   
CheerfullyInsane

 

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There is a leader check (initiative), and it should be easier to get units to commit to defense of a city/urban hex, since the normal MP requirements are void as long as the reserve units are within 2 hexes, plus the size-modifier is doubled in Urban, and tripled in Hvy. Urban hexes.
However, (and this is a big one) if the reserve units are adjacent to enemy units they can't reinforce in city/urban combats.
Not sure if it's applicable in this case, but it might explain it.

Finally, having 3 units in a city hex means only the two highest CV units are exempt from the Blizzard effects.

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 9:45:47 AM   
color

 

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Seems you are missing the most important piece of the reserve puzzle

I had big problems getting panzers in reserve to commit during blizzard. As you, I could not understand why. So studied hard the reserve section in the manual.

The explanation why is simple, problem is it is hidden within explanation about the movement points required to commit so that is probably why many people don't perceive this limiting factor.

Manual says, that MP cost to commit depends upon if reserve units is of a different HQ .... and then goes one to state the real problem you probably have:

Units attached to HQ's at two or more levels away, won't be allowed to commit

In other words, given a normal german command structure, an infantry div would have to trace the following path to the panzer div.

Inf div -> Corps HQ (same HQ) -> Army HQ (1 lvl away) -> AG HQ (2 lvls away - and thus any commitment goes KABOOM) -> Panzer Armee HQ -> Panzer Corps -> Pz Div


Soooooooo, .. as you now hopefully have already figured out ... in order to get a panzer to commit to the defence of an infantry division, you have to attach that panzer div to the same Corps HQ or a Corps HQ within the same Army HQ structure.

In other words, you need to mess with the command structure in order to make panzers available as reserve units during blizzard.

Important step, but seemingly thus far unknown to most.


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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 1:35:07 PM   
Marquo


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Great point, Color - and it is very imortant also for the attack to get more than the adjacent units to attack.

Marquo

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 3:16:22 PM   
Arkady


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thanks, two other good points here
- if the reserve units are adjacent to enemy units they can't reinforce in city/urban combats.
- Units attached to HQ's at two or more levels away, won't be allowed to commit

It seems that my checklist will be almost as long as game manual


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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/24/2011 3:44:15 PM   
color

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

It seems that my checklist will be almost as long as game manual



From my notes on reserve units:

   - Both offensive & defense
   - Min 3 MP to be put in reserve. 
   - Units that move, retreat or rout loose Reserve status.
   - To commit, must have enough MP's and pass leader initiative check as well as a check on remaining MPs : die(MP expended) <= die(MP of unit)
   - MP cost is cost to move to battle. if reserve unit is of a different HQ, then MP cost to commit is higher:
     - x3 if same HQ
     - x4 if HQ one level away
     - N/A if two or more levels away
   - MP cost is raised by 8 if mot, or 2 if non-mot.
   - Defence: Must be within 5 hexes. Offense: within 3 hexes
   - May never commit if adjacent to enemy unit
   - Will not commit if odds ratio are > 10:1, for defence will if odds ratio < 1:2 
   - Unit may participate in multiple battles as long as have remaining MPs
   - If battle is lost, MPs reduced to zero
   - If reserve unit has lack of vehicles suffer reduction in CV 
   - Corps unit add one to the leader initiative roll
   - Chance of commitment depends on size of units already commited: die(18) must be > sum already committed
     - Corps = 15 - Div = 9 - Brig = 5 - Reg = 3
   - Defending reserve units committed may rout if def. forced to rout. 
     Must pass a check morale higher than 40 + die(15) to avoid rout. (less than 50 morale, not recommended) 
   - Def in city/urban: reserves within 2 hexes can commit as long as >= 1 MP, no distance check. 
     Size commitment, instead of die(18) is die(36) if l. urban and die(72) if h. urban.


Should be a complete checklist/need-to-know-list

The second last step is really important for russians (morale should be more than 55 to be 100% to avoid routing reserve units)

< Message edited by color -- 3/24/2011 3:53:31 PM >

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RE: another blizzard thread - 3/28/2011 5:21:00 AM   
delatbabel


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http://www.witewiki.com/index.php/Reserve_Unit

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