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RE: another disaster

 
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RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 2:10:57 PM   
jay102

 

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Joined: 8/15/2005
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My two cents about the leak CAP issue. Of cause the code needs some polish, but as develop team indicated, a "easy fix" probably brings more undesired ramification. Generally speaking, leak CAP(though needs some further tweak) is at least better than the uber CAP of WitP, when an invincible KB steamrolled everything in early game, and an invincible TF58 steamrolled everything in late game.

Secondly, it is a rule of thumb of pacific war that one should always keep carrier away from major enemy airbase. Leak CAP issue may exacerbated the punishment of who against it, however it still works fairly well in accordance of reality.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 6571
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 3:26:20 PM   
beppi

 

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

My two cents about the leak CAP issue. Of cause the code needs some polish, but as develop team indicated, a "easy fix" probably brings more undesired ramification. Generally speaking, leak CAP(though needs some further tweak) is at least better than the uber CAP of WitP, when an invincible KB steamrolled everything in early game, and an invincible TF58 steamrolled everything in late game.

Secondly, it is a rule of thumb of pacific war that one should always keep carrier away from major enemy airbase. Leak CAP issue may exacerbated the punishment of who against it, however it still works fairly well in accordance of reality.


While leaky CAP is a good invention as there will always be some leakiness the CAP problem is not leaky. Basically against an opponent which knows the rules you have not just an Fleet problem. Instead you have a generic problems.

Depending on the speed of you game most players will run into that potential problem during the marinas invasion and/or Philippines invasion. You need your carriers to invade if you do not want to use ultra-cheesy tactics.

Either both sides exploit it which leads to a multiset of problems or you just create a sufficient HR to deal with it.

(in reply to jay102)
Post #: 6572
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 4:57:36 PM   
Panther Bait


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Joined: 8/30/2006
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I am not sure how a player can absolutely control the size of his strikes other than to a) limit himself to one raid per area with up to the max # of planes, or b) fly more than the max but at separate targets (nav strike would count as a target, I guess).  Limiting a player's options (especially nav strike) isn't the best choice, but as long as it was even, I guess it might work.  You'd probably need some sort of CAP limit as well.

Another way to help control the size of strikes (but not guarantee against a large strike) might be to employ voluntary stacking limits, particularly at larger air bases.  Since one of the recommendations to "coordinate" strikes is to limit the number of airbases you stage from, it seems that spreading out your planes, especially your bombers, would decrease your chances at coordinated strikes and limit the size of an individual strike.  There's probably still the chance that all the dice rolls would line up and a massive strike would launch, but hopefully that would be rare.

Of course, someone would have to do a fair bit of testing to see what stacking limits for large bases works best at keeping strikes small enough that the model can sort of handle them.

Mike


< Message edited by Panther Bait -- 2/7/2012 9:17:24 PM >


_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to beppi)
Post #: 6573
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 5:10:12 PM   
Cribtop


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From: Lone Star Nation
Status: online
I concur that some sort of stacking limit on air groups may be the only real way to accomplish this goal. You will still have some problems just cruising past the numerous Japanese bases on Honshu, but that may be somewhat realistic.

Think about how stacking limits will impact both players' defense against airfield and strategic bombing attacks (i.e. A limit of "no more than X groups per airfield may be too simple as it is legit to stack interceptors over key industrial sites). Thus, perhaps the stacking limit should only pertain to escorts set for long range and strike aircraft groups.

In the end, only a code fix can truly solve this. IMHO if possible they should remove any hard cap on passes (or make it so large as to be effectively infinite) and key number of passes to units of time available before the strike is over the target. This may or may not be possible given the code, but there appears to be some "time to target" mechanic, so I'm hopeful it's possible.

_____________________________


(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 6574
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 7:00:41 PM   
Gridley380


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I suggest a stacking limit for operational groups in any given hex ("operational" meaning "not set entirely for training"). Say, 12 groups for a level 9 A/F and 18 for a level 10 A/F. One Air HQ can still allow bonus groups.

When discussing code fixes, I encourage people to remember that some very large raids were launched historically (google 'thousand plane raid' and ignore the movie results). They may not have been efficient, but they were certainly possible... at least for the allies. I'd like to see a land-based offshoot of the CV TF coordination penalty, myself: above so many planes, you have high odds of your raid breaking up and arriving over the target piecemeal (modified by various factors including nationality, A/F size, date, etc.).

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 6575
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 7:54:19 PM   
Karwoski

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

I suggest a stacking limit for operational groups in any given hex ("operational" meaning "not set entirely for training"). Say, 12 groups for a level 9 A/F and 18 for a level 10 A/F. One Air HQ can still allow bonus groups.

When discussing code fixes, I encourage people to remember that some very large raids were launched historically (google 'thousand plane raid' and ignore the movie results). They may not have been efficient, but they were certainly possible... at least for the allies. I'd like to see a land-based offshoot of the CV TF coordination penalty, myself: above so many planes, you have high odds of your raid breaking up and arriving over the target piecemeal (modified by various factors including nationality, A/F size, date, etc.).



It sounds to me like these are good solutions, particularly the latter. If strikes aren't putting 800 planes into one package, you don't have so many escorts to soak up the capped CAP firing passes. A simple change to reduce the massive, well-coordinated strike formations we're seeing here and in other late-game AARs.

(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 6576
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 9:11:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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I think some of the suggested fixes will work a hardship on the defender.  Under some of these proposed HRs, the defender will be able to base only a finite number at a particular base.  The enemy, on the other hand, may be able to target huge strikes from multiple airfields against the single airfield, which will suffer due to the reduced defensive capacity.

For example, GreyJoy would be limited to a finite number of CAP at Hakodate, while Rader would be able to target Hakodate from multiple large bases thus overwhelming the defenses.  GJ can try to address the situation by using other fields for LRCAP, but that is less effective, uncertain, and results in higher fatigue, losses, and aircraft in need of repair.

(in reply to Karwoski)
Post #: 6577
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 9:17:03 PM   
Laxplayer

 

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From: San Diego
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Took me 9 days, but I finally read all 220 pages of this AAR. Now I find that it's completely halted because of some flaw/bug/whatever... man what a let down! Hopefully it gets remedied soon so you guys can go back to entertaining the rest of us.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6578
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 9:22:26 PM   
Cribtop


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CR, I agree and thus suggest that a distinction be made between interceptors and strike groups. That said, in the end only a code fix of some kind will really clear this up because of limited player control over naval strike missions and even co-ordination of airfield and ground attacks.

_____________________________


(in reply to Laxplayer)
Post #: 6579
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 9:27:30 PM   
Panther Bait


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I agree that there is some danger. The hope with stacking limits would be that the raids come small(er) and broken up, so that they do not overwhelm the hard-coded CAP limit (particularly for # of escort).

I think it would work better if the limits were by number of planes (and maybe track multi-engine bombers, torpedo/dive bombers and fighters separately) rather than by simple number of air units to avoid confusion of airunit size, etc.

I think it would be absolutely critical to do some play testing to make sure that the dispersal actually does cause raids to fragment and that CAP can handle the fragmentation without too much diminishing effectiveness. Playtesting should occur using both sides on offense/defense to hopefully limit any bias against one side or the other.

Mike



_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6580
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 10:30:01 PM   
GreyJoy


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Hi guys,

I asked Rader to halt the game for few days in order to find a decent solution or workaround for the cap issue.
Panther is right. We need to do quite a bit of playtesting in order to find an hr that keeps te game fair...

Limited number of planes devoted to airstrikes and cap may be a good one, but i think it is not easy cause how can u limit the numbers of planes set to naval attack in the whole japan for example? How can you set only 200 escorts and 200 bombers for a naval strike? If u set it for each base, this will lead to a multiple starting base strike that will have the same effect: overwhelming CAP. But if you set the opposite, this will severly hamper any possible decent combined air defensive system....
I think the only HR that could "work" is to limit the AF and Port attack to 200+200, while leaving "free" the number of units on naval strike mission... Obviously this won't solve the CV problem....but mine are already on the bottom of the ocean anyway

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 6581
RE: another disaster - 2/7/2012 11:23:59 PM   
Karwoski

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think some of the suggested fixes will work a hardship on the defender.  Under some of these proposed HRs, the defender will be able to base only a finite number at a particular base.  The enemy, on the other hand, may be able to target huge strikes from multiple airfields against the single airfield, which will suffer due to the reduced defensive capacity.

For example, GreyJoy would be limited to a finite number of CAP at Hakodate, while Rader would be able to target Hakodate from multiple large bases thus overwhelming the defenses.  GJ can try to address the situation by using other fields for LRCAP, but that is less effective, uncertain, and results in higher fatigue, losses, and aircraft in need of repair.


The attacker can already break through defending CAP at will, so things couldn't get worse for the defender. With the air group stacking HR, at least there'd be a chance that the attackers don't come in coordinated, and the CAP only has to fight 2-300 enemy planes at a time, meaning they don't have issues like the CAP firing pass hard cap. And it seems to me a player can more reliably control how many air groups are at a particular base than they can control how many planes take off for a strike. It certainly wouldn't be perfect, but I think it's better than the status quo and more feasible than some proposed HRs.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 6582
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 12:57:20 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

I think the only HR that could "work" is to limit the AF and Port attack to 200+200, while leaving "free" the number of units on naval strike mission... Obviously this won't solve the CV problem....but mine are already on the bottom of the ocean anyway


Perhaps you could tweak naval attack to something like "200-200 within 8 hexes of each base" so within a 8 hex radius you could not have more than 400 bombers set to naval attack. The flip side of this is no death stars. Limit of 6 carriers per hex. I know this is clunky but maybe a bit of play testing could tweak it. The alternative is wait for a fix, stop playing or carry on as is. Rational limits on number of planes in a strike, and on CAP, seem to play a bit closer to reality.

_____________________________

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it’s still on the list.

(in reply to Karwoski)
Post #: 6583
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 7:12:01 AM   
GreyJoy


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I made a couple of tests simulating a landing at hacinoe with 300 fighters based at hakodate on lrCAP over the landing hex and 200 bombers on naval strike at tokyo, maebashi, utsonomia and sendai... The result was that i had not more than 130 planes actively covering my fleet while japan managed to have 2 very big air raids coordinating 300 fighters an some 350 bombers from 3 different airbases....which led to the destruction of my fleet...

Mmmmmmmm......

But there seems to be a strange fact: if i put a cve with my landing fleet the raids will arrive in big waves...while it seems that if i use a BB as my leading ship with no CV or CVE the eaids arrive in smaller packs..... Gotta make some more tests....

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 6584
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 7:31:47 AM   
CT Grognard

 

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The best way to fix this in my opinion is to improve the coordination penalty system - as soon as the number of planes in a strike exceeds a given number the coordination penalty needs to increase exponentially.

Then if a player launches a 1,000-plane strike you'll hopefully see it break down into four or five smaller raids over the target hex...and you should see much more realistic and historical results.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6585
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 12:07:15 PM   
Gabede


Posts: 168
Joined: 2/7/2010
From: Central, NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

The best way to fix this in my opinion is to improve the coordination penalty system - as soon as the number of planes in a strike exceeds a given number the coordination penalty needs to increase exponentially.

Then if a player launches a 1,000-plane strike you'll hopefully see it break down into four or five smaller raids over the target hex...and you should see much more realistic and historical results.



Bingo. There was no AWAC and or computer assisted routing for the massive air attacks of WWII like today. I have a couple of questions though.

1) If you have a HR about stacking, does this include CVs ?

2) Why is strike craft leaking through bad? I am in a game in late 44' Marianas action, and i cant get anything through the Super Fleet CAP. Mostly i think do to my poor pilot exp. and poor co-ordination.

3) How does pilot exp. effect the outcome? Anyone done a test yet?

4) The AA in DaBabes is crushing...big difference.

The cobe may be borqued, but this is not a historical game so you cant expect historical results. What would have happened if the Allies had invaded the Home land? We will never know. I dont have a solution other than stopping the massive air battles, they are ahistorical.

_____________________________

One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 6586
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 12:16:55 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabede


1) If you have a HR about stacking, does this include CVs ?

2) Why is strike craft leaking through bad? I am in a game in late 44' Marianas action, and i cant get anything through the Super Fleet CAP. Mostly i think do to my poor pilot exp. and poor co-ordination.

3) How does pilot exp. effect the outcome? Anyone done a test yet?

4) The AA in DaBabes is crushing...big difference.


1- Don't know...the tests are showing awful results...

2- It's only a matter of coordination. Good Air HQs and lots of level 9 and 10 AFs mean a good coordination, so to say more than 500 fighters escorting more than 400 bombers in a single raid.

3- Imho pilot experience doesn't effect the coordination. Rader is using rookie pilots (just drawn from the flight school) to perform 600 fighters escorting 400 bombers...


(in reply to Gabede)
Post #: 6587
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 12:19:09 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

The best way to fix this in my opinion is to improve the coordination penalty system - as soon as the number of planes in a strike exceeds a given number the coordination penalty needs to increase exponentially.

Then if a player launches a 1,000-plane strike you'll hopefully see it break down into four or five smaller raids over the target hex...and you should see much more realistic and historical results.



Agree...but i think it will need a major re-coding activity...


I'm now testing how it works with 200 fighters + 200 bombers against 300 fighters available on a single base... results are not good...
300 fighters in a single base will probably mean, even with 100% CAP that only a small fraction (say 1/3) will ever be able to engage...

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 6588
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 12:47:49 PM   
CT Grognard

 

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I don't necessarily think so - I think the coding is already there, you just need to intensify the effects of the parameters.

The intention behind strike coordination was to make it very difficult to mount massive raids with several different types of aircraft, resulting in smaller, more selective raid formations.

We have been seeing directly the opposite in your and rader's air combat - massive formations consisting of many numbers of different aircraft models.

LoBaron of course has an excellent sticky thread about air coordination in the War Room which goes to the core of the current problems you are observing. Coordination penalties in AE were implemented intentionally to reflect the difficulties of coordination as well as the vagaries of war. (Think of Midway, where Spruance specifically decided on uncoordinated attacks against a single coordinated strike in order to prevent a Japanese counterstrike, as a result the unescorted low-level raid by VT-8 was absolutely slaughtered, but managed to draw the Japanese Zero CAP out of position, allowing the SBDs of VB-6, VS-6 and VB-3 an almost unopposed run on the target.)

There are a number of factors included in the code design that affect coordination.

We also know that the chance of uncoordination is doubled for carrier task forces as soon as the number of aircraft in the task force exceeds a given number. For Japanese CV TFs strikes will have the chances of uncoordination doubled as soon as there are more than 200+ RND(200) aircraft in the task force.

I believe a similar restriction should apply to bases, but you can set the thresholds higher. For example, double chances of uncoordination for a strike from a base if there are more than 400+RND(400) aircraft in the task force.

I speak under correction and michaelm can hopefully chip in but I believe the coding is there, you just need to crank up the penalties.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6589
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 3:18:41 PM   
Schlemiel

 

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I think the 1/3 rule itself might be flawed in this particular situation. Sure, for a couple of carriers you'd need 1/3 of your CAP planes in the air, but with (presumably) frequent recon of the major airfields, troops on the ground (which would have a hard time not spotting a 1000 plane raid with a couple hours notice for Hakodate), pickets in the ocean and radar, you probably wouldn't need more than a few hundred planes in the air until something is detected (enough to stop a small raid that could sneak through) and have far more on standby for when the raid is detected. Sure, you'd have issues launching them all, but presumably more than 1/3 of your aircraft could be in the air for a raid that size with the warning you'd be likely to have. Not that I think there's a solution, per say, but I'd think in late war an Allied airbase that could support 2,500 fighters WOULD be able to put up what is basically an impenetrable CAP against flight school pilots of fighters at the edge of their combat range with the kind of warning (intelligence, spotters on the sea and on land, recon, radar, etc) they would be likely to have. Not that I think there's an elegant solution here.

As far as home rules, I think strike size limits (perhaps the groups on attack in an 8 hex area rule or whatever) are fine, but I'm not sure restricting the number of fighters on CAP is necessary. You'd need to test, of course, but if you can make one base basically impenetrable by placing all your fighters there, you are making some trade offs. Your 50% CAP of 2,500 aircraft would still probably have only put probably 400 fighters in the air against that raid. If you need to refine it for the strike to have a chance, simply say that you can only base fighters at a base such that 1/3, or 1/4 (presuming 100% CAP, which isn't that bad over your own airbase for pilot fatigue) of them is equal to 400 (or if that number proves impenetrable, less until a whatever decent % of strikes you agree on will get through). The 1/4 would be to have some kind of margin for planes out of position.

One odd thing for me is, I've seen dice rolls where aircraft strike electrical lines or whatever near bases on raids, but there's no modelling of the HIGH probability of midair collisions when 600 flight school pilots try to fly in formation and gather up for a 1,000 aircraft strike with the hours until all the planes would get airborne? That wouldn't be terribly easy to pull off without loss with very experienced pilots, much less rookies hastily drafted out of flight school with the adrenaline of their first mission.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 6590
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 10:23:21 PM   
GreyJoy


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Sorry to bother you guys....but the more i test, the more i'm puzzled.

Following the tests made in the general forum section (please take a look), i tried to set up a typical Hakkodate-Tokyo scenario.

I assembled a typical landing TF (4 BBs, 2 CAs and several APAs)
there are 1000 fighters at Hakodate. 15k feet altitude, 0 range, 100% CAP.
Japan has at Tokyo 100 Franks and 200 Frances (naval attack, 10% naval search, 6,000 feet altitude)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 01, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hakodate at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
P1Y2 Frances x 135
Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 1000


Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y2 Frances: 68 damaged
P1Y2 Frances: 14 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 41 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Colorado, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB Arkansas, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB West Virginia, Torpedo hits 8, and is sunk
CA Louisville
CA Chester, Torpedo hits 1
APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
42 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
42 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
43 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
128 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
116 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
144 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
118 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
110 planes vectored on to bombers

Banzai! - Mori J. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor


So despite having ONLY 100 escort fighters, ALL the bombers got through...even if all my groups have plenty of time to reach the battle...despite none of my fighter was out of position...despite all my fighters were able to engage (100% CAP)...


Now let's try an hypotetical landing with the same TF at hachinoe, with those same 1000 fighters on LRCAP...........

(in reply to Schlemiel)
Post #: 6591
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 10:31:24 PM   
GreyJoy


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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hachinohe at 118,55

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 95 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 115
     Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
     P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 717...don't take this number into any consideration...
 

Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 9 destroyed, 58 damaged
     P1Y2 Frances: 9 destroyed by flak
     Ki-84r Frank: 29 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 6 destroyed

Allied Ships
     BB West Virginia, Torpedo hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
     BB Valiant, Torpedo hits 5,  on fire,  heavy damage
     BB Colorado, Torpedo hits 5,  heavy damage
     BB Arkansas, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
     CA Louisville



Aircraft Attacking:
     25 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     38 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     36 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 151 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 151 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (151 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     151 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 151 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 113 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes

Banzai! - Koda L. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor
Magazine explodes on BB Arkansas


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hachinohe at 118,55

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 101
     Ki-84r Frank x 27



Allied aircraft
     P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 684
 

Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 6 destroyed, 62 damaged
     P1Y2 Frances: 5 destroyed by flak
     Ki-84r Frank: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
     APA Haskell
     BB Colorado, Torpedo hits 1,  heavy damage
     CA Louisville
     APA Haskell
     CA Chester, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
     APA Haskell
     APA Haskell
     APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     APA Haskell
     APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
     APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 1
     BB Valiant,  heavy damage
     APA Haskell
     APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
     33 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     15 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     19 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     21 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 147 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 147 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 143 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (142 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     142 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 105 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

Banzai! - Hayashi C. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor


Actually out of 5 groups, only one was in position to fight...both in the morning and in the afternoon...
 
is that just a bad dice and roll??
 
Let's try it again at Aikita...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6592
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 10:37:41 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6149
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hirosaki/Aomori at 117,54

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 54
     Ki-84r Frank x 6



Allied aircraft
     P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 584
 

Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 4 destroyed, 26 damaged
     P1Y2 Frances: 3 destroyed by flak
     Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
     APA Haskell, Torpedo hits 2,  heavy damage
     BB West Virginia, Torpedo hits 1
     BB Colorado, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
     BB Valiant, Torpedo hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
     BB Arkansas, Torpedo hits 3,  heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
     17 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     14 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (118 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     118 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 125 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 125 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
     125 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 123 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 93 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes

Magazine explodes on BB Colorado



mmmmmmmmmmmm.....so what's the secret of defending a fleet? Japanese forces were far from being overwhelimg this time...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6593
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 10:48:25 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6149
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Ok, let's try with the CVs...

16 CVs+9 CVLs.
All fighters are set at 70% CAP at 15,000 feet, range 8.

200 Frances and 100 Franks based at Tokyo. Frances are 50 exp!





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ominato at 120,56

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 155
     Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
     Seafire IIC x 10
     Seafire L.III x 15
     Seafire F.XV x 64
     F4U-1D Corsair x 156
     F6F-5 Hellcat x 373

These numbers exactly correspond at the 70% of the fighter strenght of the TF....
 

Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 2 destroyed, 72 damaged
     P1Y2 Frances: 41 destroyed by flak            All the Frances reached the launching position BEFORE the fighters could engage!
      Ki-84r Frank: 16 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     Seafire IIC: 1 destroyed
     Seafire F.XV: 1 destroyed
     F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
     F6F-5 Hellcat: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
     CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 1
     CV Victorious
     CV Essex, Kamikaze hits 1
     CV Yorktown
     CVL Langley
     CV Indomitable, Torpedo hits 2
     CV Illustrious, Torpedo hits 1
     CV Bunker Hill
     CVL Independence
     CV Formidable
     CV Lexington
     CV Randolph, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Bataan, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL San Jacinto
     CV Enterprise
     CVL Cowpens, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Princeton, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
     CVL Belleau Wood, Kamikaze hits 1,  on fire
     CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
     CVL Monterey



Aircraft Attacking:
     35 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     34 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     26 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     14 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     11 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-3 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     5 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-6 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-7 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
     14 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-9 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 10000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (3 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     3 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-10 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 6000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     21 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-11 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-12 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-12 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     17 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-13 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-14 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
     13 planes vectored on to bombers

Anabuki N. gives his life for the Emperor by ramming CV Essex
Banzai! - Ban O. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor
Banzai! - Iizuka R. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor
Okajima R. gives his life for the Emperor by ramming CVL Belleau Wood
Ammo storage explosion on CV Saratoga
Ammo storage explosion on CVL Princeton
Fuel storage explosion on CVL Princeton


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ominato at 120,56

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 25



Allied aircraft
     Seafire IIC x 7
     Seafire L.III x 13
     Seafire F.XV x 57
     F4U-1D Corsair x 139
     F6F-5 Hellcat x 318


Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 18 destroyed

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     8 plane(s) intercepting now.
     1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 16000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VBF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     6 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VBF-3 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VBF-6 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 17000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
VBF-7 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VBF-9 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VBF-10 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VBF-11 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-12 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
VBF-12 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (6 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     6 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 8000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VBF-13 with F4U-1D Corsair (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     3 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Raid is overhead
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VBF-14 with F4U-1D Corsair (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     5 plane(s) intercepting now.
     0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes




As you can see...no scrambling fighters...the 30% left on escort REMAINED on escort.... also the 8 hexes range meant that a lot of fighters were out of position....
 
Overall this means that 200 bombers escorted by 100 fighters are more than enough to bring HAVOC to the allied DS....

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6594
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 11:04:28 PM   
TheLoneGunman


Posts: 311
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline
Try splitting the carrier fighter groups into dedicated Escort and CAP groups respectively.

You might see better performance by specializing them, and have less aircraft "out of position".

Your escort groups would have the needed range, escort mission, and target (if applicable), while your CAP groups would be at or near 100% CAP with 0 range to focus all of their aircraft on defending the carriers.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6595
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 11:25:33 PM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 392
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
I hesitate to say this, but perhaps the pre AE "uber-cap" was actually more of an accurate model for late war strike vs cap engagements.

Not sure if the pattern really holds up but it seems like CAP got better and better relative to strike packages as the war progressed ... early war the bombers go through. Late war, not so much (Marianas, okinawa, etc)

The tests I'm seeing above are frankly silly. If that holds up all an attacker needs to do is "spend" enough fighters to absord all possible firing passes and then his strike package walks in unmolested :(

(in reply to TheLoneGunman)
Post #: 6596
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 11:43:36 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6149
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Same settings...but with 70% CAP and 0 hex...
 
ALL the bombers got through....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ominato at 120,56

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 114 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     P1Y2 Frances x 155
     Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
     Seafire IIC x 10
     Seafire L.III x 15
     Seafire F.XV x 64
     F4U-1D Corsair x 156
     F6F-5 Hellcat x 373


Japanese aircraft losses
     P1Y2 Frances: 4 destroyed, 80 damaged
     P1Y2 Frances: 34 destroyed by flak
     Ki-84r Frank: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
     F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
     F6F-5 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
     CVL Bataan, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Cowpens
     CV Victorious
     CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 2
     CV Intrepid
     CVL Cabot
     CV Hancock, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Princeton
     CV Wasp
     CVL Belleau Wood
     CV Illustrious, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
     CV Enterprise
     CV Lexington
     CV Formidable
     CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
     CV Bunker Hill, Torpedo hits 1
     CV Franklin, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Langley
     CV Essex
     CV Randolph
     CV Indomitable, Torpedo hits 1
     CVL Monterey, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
     29 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     38 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     34 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
     16 x P1Y2 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VBF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 37300.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
     11 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-3 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 11000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VBF-6 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
     1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
     4 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-7 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 39300.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
     3 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-9 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
     9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
     12 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-10 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 10000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
     5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-11 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
     5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-12 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
     6 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-12 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
     8 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-13 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
     1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) intercepting now.
     3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 37300.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
     2 planes vectored on to bombers
VBF-14 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
     4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
     Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
     Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
     5 planes vectored on to bombers

Banzai! - Futagami L. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor
Ammo storage explosion on CV Yorktown
Banzai! - Mitsumori M. in a P1Y2 Frances is willing to die for the Emperor
Fuel storage explosion on CV Illustrious
Fuel storage explosion on CVL Monterey
Ammo storage explosion on CVL Monterey




This time not a single fighter was out of position (0 being recalled)...but the result was nonetheless awfull....

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 6597
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 11:47:04 PM   
TheLoneGunman


Posts: 311
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline
Well GJ, you still have only a limited number of passes for your fighters, so as long as the escort is big enough, they'll never reach the bombers, but at least you've somewhat proven what I already suspected, that ranges greater than 0 are putting your CAP out of position by having them fly through neighboring hexes.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6598
RE: another disaster - 2/8/2012 11:51:12 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6149
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

Well GJ, you still have only a limited number of passes for your fighters, so as long as the escort is big enough, they'll never reach the bombers, but at least you've somewhat proven what I already suspected, that ranges greater than 0 are putting your CAP out of position by having them fly through neighboring hexes.


Yes but we should have at least 300 passes AFAIK... if 100 fighters on escort are enough to suck up all those passes...well...we have a problem imho.
And what about those planes directly vectored on bombers? Why they don't reach them? or reach them always too late?
To be honest i never noticed this terrible behaviour of CAP...i faced several battles in this game and it was never so awfull...

however...let's face it: under these conditions how am i supposed to do anything in Hokkaido-northern Honshu?

(in reply to TheLoneGunman)
Post #: 6599
RE: another disaster - 2/9/2012 12:12:33 AM   
TheLoneGunman


Posts: 311
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline
Well not every pass is going to result in a hit. Which is why it only takes 100 fighters on escort to suck up all 300 passes.

The amount of passes awarded to the CAP shouldn't ever have had a hard limit, it should have been proportional to the amount of CAP in the air.

1,000 fighters on CAP shouldn't get only 300 passes, especially if they're set to 100% CAP at a high level airfield with plenty of aviation support and set to 0 range.

A quick band aid could be trying to apply overstacking limits to level 9 and 10 airfields so that it becomes impossible to field aircraft in the thousands on either side and cripple coordination to a degree as well. But that's only a band aid covering up a flaw in the mechanics, not an actual fix.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6600
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