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RE: Angels over Sadogashima

 
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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 1:35:55 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II
Jap flattops are big targets and they are nice targets for Dds on night attack..... I'll take the trade any day (or maybe that should be any night)

Roger (evil grin)



Yeah, aggressive DD raiding. DDs at sea are very hard to hit, even if they get stamped on in the daylight hours they'll absorb some of KB's precious torpedoes and sorties.


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Post #: 6331
RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 2:25:24 PM   
HansBolter


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The American's get a fresh new cruiser at pearl on Dec. 8. I couple it with a group of destroyers as my main attack force and then build as many other DD TFs as I can (usualy 2-3 TFs of 4 DDs each). Form up three TFs of 4 PT boats each. Any CLs that survived the first day's airstrikes in reasonable enough shape to sorty also get added to the mix.

I then sorty the entire bunch into a spread pattern N to NW of Pearl in the hopes of triggering a night encounter. I also send the nearest subs to the vicinity of the KB. If the KB stays near to it's original location (which the AI deplorably does as a habit) I will get at least one intercept if not more. I realize a player is more likely to reposition the KB if he stays and reduce the American's chances of an interrcept.

Sometimes if the KB isn't staying it is still in range to hit any of these TFs left at sea the next day so there is a risk of greater ship loss if the KB isn't staying, but the risk of losing everything anyway if the KB stays and I don't sorty leads me to believe it is best to sorty.

Sorry for derailing your AAR Geyjoy, but I thought it might be helpful to discuss some of the alternatives you may not have been aware of when these events went down in your game.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 6332
RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 5:21:53 PM   
GreyJoy


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Well Hans, i didn't know what to do at that time...my only defence during those first days was praying that he left




Ok guys, time to rotate again the "Angels of Sadogashima"....next turn the defence of the skies will be left to the P-47D-25s and to the british T-Bolts (always LRCAP), while the rest of my squadrons will be resting at Hakodate.
3 more DD Divisions will take the place of those destroyed or mauled today at Sadogashima and 2 AA Regiments should be unloading within the first day.
The runaway is open at 100% (even if the airport facilities are badly damaged), so i'm considering to send in again a couple of squadrons for a point defence CAP (yeah...i'm thinking about a couple of those british fluing circuses...).

Tomorrow the role of Pallister will be taken by Lane, who will lead a cruiser TF on the second night at Sadogashima, while the first night watch will be probably left to a New Zeland commander that will lead the CL Leander (veterans of several battles in the Solomons) and a couple of Cleveland Class CLs along with 8 DDs.

Let's see if Rader sends in his last defences...he should be running short of undamaged BBs by now...

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6333
RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 5:27:49 PM   
Chickenboy


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GreyJoy,

All in all, the loss of those IJN heavies makes the last turn a win for you. Anything approaching 1:1 sea losses is something you can definitely handle. In this case, I would say you came out ahead in VP too.

I think that Rader misapplied his forces there. Too large of TFs, should probably have split 'em up further, bombardment orders for ships and aircraft when his focus should have been naval intercept, etc. Your repeated SCTF intercepts likely ran his heavies out of ammunition, which he then made into an acute problem with shore bombardment.

A grinding war of attrition is definitely to your advantage at this point. If Rader compounds that with injudicious TF construction and inselective mission profiles, that will further benefit your position.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 1/31/2012 5:34:38 PM >


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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 5:33:47 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The American's get a fresh new cruiser at pearl on Dec. 8. I couple it with a group of destroyers as my main attack force and then build as many other DD TFs as I can (usualy 2-3 TFs of 4 DDs each). Form up three TFs of 4 PT boats each. Any CLs that survived the first day's airstrikes in reasonable enough shape to sorty also get added to the mix.

I then sorty the entire bunch into a spread pattern N to NW of Pearl in the hopes of triggering a night encounter. I also send the nearest subs to the vicinity of the KB. If the KB stays near to it's original location (which the AI deplorably does as a habit) I will get at least one intercept if not more. I realize a player is more likely to reposition the KB if he stays and reduce the American's chances of an interrcept.

Sometimes if the KB isn't staying it is still in range to hit any of these TFs left at sea the next day so there is a risk of greater ship loss if the KB isn't staying, but the risk of losing everything anyway if the KB stays and I don't sorty leads me to believe it is best to sorty.

Sorry for derailing your AAR Geyjoy, but I thought it might be helpful to discuss some of the alternatives you may not have been aware of when these events went down in your game.


I imagine that GreyJoy's two day turns for this game compounded the issue. I can't imagine that his CAP was more effective (in the absence of orders) on day two of the two day turns. Likely GreyJoy was a victim of the game settings too.

The 'scramble everything approach' is easily countered by a human player. Back KB off 6 hexes and reset everything available for naval attack. Those Allied TFs that sortied will be engaged and destroyed at sea-no port facilities to prevent their sinking here. There's also no pesky CAP or port AAA to exacerbate KB bomber A2A or Flak costs. After the seas have been scrubbed, manuever KB around (possibly from a different angle) and plaster PH again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

For your 'scramble everything' approach to work, you have to have apriori knowledge of KBs location and duration there. Far better, in my opinion, to scramble everything that can sail in 1-2 ship TFs to the points of the compass and try to make a friendly port.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 1/31/2012 5:34:20 PM >


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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 6:52:23 PM   
hades1001

 

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Actually I suffer bigger losses than GJ if you check my AAR and I'm still there

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

hats off to you Sir, I think there are not that many people around sticking to the game suffering those losses AND still managing to land where you are now. Hats off to rader as well for inflicting those losses...


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Post #: 6336
RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 7:22:30 PM   
EUBanana


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Allied masochists to the front desk, Allied masochists to the front desk on the double...



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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 7:48:19 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

The 'scramble everything approach' is easily countered by a human player. Back KB off 6 hexes and reset everything available for naval attack. Those Allied TFs that sortied will be engaged and destroyed at sea-no port facilities to prevent their sinking here. There's also no pesky CAP or port AAA to exacerbate KB bomber A2A or Flak costs. After the seas have been scrubbed, manuever KB around (possibly from a different angle) and plaster PH again. Rinse, lather, repeat.


There's a certain element of scissors paper stone.

However I would raid with them set to retire, DDs can cover 8 or 9 hexes on full speed which is the full range of KBs bombers, so they can be in at night and then be back under CAP by daybreak.

Also a DD is extremely hard to hit. If KB is going to be staying by Pearl, then I'd rather have them hitting expendable, extremely difficult to hit targets than moored, easy to hit, not at all expendable targets. If your DDs are sitting in or near the Pearl hex by daybreak then not only is he wasting sorties on the expendable hard to kill things but he might be CAPped as well.

If he leaves completely and comes back after some DD chasing around the Pacific, or pulls back anticipating a major sortie (ie, he chose rock, you chose paper) the runways and the P40s will be that much more fixed and it will be more costly upon his return.

< Message edited by EUBanana -- 1/31/2012 7:50:31 PM >


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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 7:53:36 PM   
Canoerebel


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I did this in my game with Q-Ball.  He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet.  Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always.  I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB.  I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun.  It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.

Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:11:49 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did this in my game with Q-Ball.  He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet.  Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always.  I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB.  I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun.  It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.

Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.



I have played the historical first day in both of my campaigns. But asked for a two day limit to the havoc at Pearl. That actually is plenty of time to wreck the American BB fleet. Sticking around for a week is total cheese in my book. Not to say that the Japanese player can't do it in the absence of a HR. However, it would put me of a mind to give no slack later on. Sort of sets the tone for the whole game.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:13:11 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did this in my game with Q-Ball.  He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet.  Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always.  I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB.  I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun.  It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.

Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.


[facetiousness=on] I do not know Canoerebel .. I mean when the IJ was not looking -- GreyJoy snuck up on Rader and landed in Northern Japan! .. and he has sort of over stayed his welcome [/facetiousness ]

Despite this all I am continually amazed from tehe abuses taken, and the sweetnees of the victory when this is said and done ..

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:19:18 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did this in my game with Q-Ball.  He hang around Pearl for four days and really hammered the Allied fleet.  Each night, PT boats and small DD or CL/DD TFs sortied in various directions - usually close enough to return to port before daylight, but no always.  I got at least two surface engagements between CL/DD TFs and the KB.  I lost CL St. Louis in the process and did nothing but give Q-Ball some indigestion, but it was fun.  It's bad karma for the KB to put itself at risk like that as far as I am concerned.

Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.



I have played the historical first day in both of my campaigns. But asked for a two day limit to the havoc at Pearl. That actually is plenty of time to wreck the American BB fleet. Sticking around for a week is total cheese in my book. Not to say that the Japanese player can't do it in the absence of a HR. However, it would put me of a mind to give no slack later on. Sort of sets the tone for the whole game.


I had no clue at the time of what I was doing in my game, but I slipped teh Lady Lex and Big E behind toward the Gilberts where very vulnerable amphib TF's were landing .. the Lady Lex took a torp --otherwise 3 maybe 4 amphib + escort TF were going to find the bottom of the ocean. As it is -- the discovery of the Lady Lex within striking distance of a pot of gold so to speak -- encouraged the KB to retrograde toward the Gilberts qucikly on day three ..

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:26:07 PM   
EUBanana


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Not sure its even necessary to sink those old BBs, might be better to leave them with 700 days to fix. That way they are taking up yard space. By the time they are out of the yards what usefulness they may have once had will be almost nil.

A wounded enemy is better than a dead enemy and all.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:29:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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Unless you're going for auto victory.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 8:43:39 PM   
Miller


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Two days max attacking PH IMO, anymore is cheesy. Of course if GJ was not a noob at the time he would have realised the danager and sortied everything that could escape away from PH in small TFs.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:11:47 PM   
Canoerebel


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Yeah, and waited until the KB was out of sorties to vector in the two USN carriers.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:23:00 PM   
GreyJoy


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Well guys...too late i think

Turn sent...few minutes and we'll have another two days of struggle over Sadogashima...lots of engineers will be arriving this turn by air transport (didn't work last time...don't know why...all my transports got resetted)

I fear a turn  of LRCAP battles...

40 british spitfires have been moved to Sadogashima...my angels

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:24:25 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Well guys...too late i think

Turn sent...few minutes and we'll have another two days of struggle over Sadogashima...lots of engineers will be arriving this turn by air transport (didn't work last time...don't know why...all my transports got resetted)

I fear a turn  of LRCAP battles...

40 british spitfires have been moved to Sadogashima...my angels


Did you get any AA in last turn?


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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:28:47 PM   
GreyJoy


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Not yet...the CD guns were destroyed while unloading.
This turn 2regiments should arrive with escort...finger crossed

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:38:17 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Please, please pardon me for saying this, but for an experienced IJ player to pound a newb at Pearl for six or eight days at the start of a game is......well, I'll leave it at that.


Yeah. I agree. It's total...well. Absolutely.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 9:42:53 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, and waited until the KB was out of sorties to vector in the two USN carriers.




Allied win in 1941... even better than your AAR Canoerebel.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 10:24:24 PM   
HansBolter


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It was an innocent question about Pearl.

It wasn't my intent to set off a string of bash the Japanese opponent replies.

While I agree completely and a similar episode with an experienced Japanese opponent as a UV newbie is the reason I have refrained from PBEM play in this game, I already have too much of a reputation as a Japanese player basher for me to allow this spate of bashing to fall on my shoulders.

All I did was ask an innocent question about how PBEMers deal with a protracted Pearl strike.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 11:13:42 PM   
GreyJoy


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A good turn guys.
300 Engineers arrived at Sadogashima and 2 AA regiments (60 bofors and 60 90mm guns).
We achieved another solid 3-1 in A2A ratio.
No naval battles.
33 pilots KIA but we are grinding heavily the enemy

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 11:19:33 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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60 x 90mm AA

Where would you put that many? Everyone on the island will be deaf in a week


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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 11:21:35 PM   
GreyJoy


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ahahah...no sorry, my mistake...60 bofors and 32 90 mm guns....

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 1/31/2012 11:32:46 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

60 x 90mm AA

Where would you put that many? Everyone on the island will be deaf in a week



Hahaha.

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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 2/1/2012 12:35:01 AM   
GreyJoy


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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 24, 44

Another CL goes beneath the waves....and still the Pogy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Toyama at 112,56

Japanese Ships
CL Yubari, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Uruyuke
DD Suzunami
DD Akebono
DD Samidare

Allied Ships
SS Pogy



A night bombing attempt...we tried 50 planes at 20k feet...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Maebashi , at 113,59

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 11
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 8



Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 20


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged



Manpower hits 1
Fires 740

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Sadogashima at 114,55

Japanese Ships
SS I-170, hits 13

Allied Ships
DE Brackett, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DE Doneff
DE Dionne
DE Duffy





Then the "Angels" fly again...another turn of harsh fightings...wow....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 158 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 33
J7W1 Shinden x 17



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 15
Thunderbolt I x 23
Spitfire VIII x 23
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 77


Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 8 destroyed
J7W1 Shinden: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 185 NM, estimated altitude 44,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 1
Ki-84r Frank x 54



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 10
Thunderbolt I x 17
Spitfire VIII x 23
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 68


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt I: 1 destroyed
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 4 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 148 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 7
Ki-83 x 24
Ki-84a Frank x 17



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 10
Thunderbolt I x 10
Spitfire VIII x 19
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 44


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-83: 6 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 114,56

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 134 NM, estimated altitude 37,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 3
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 8
Ki-100-I Tony x 6



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 8
Thunderbolt I x 9
Spitfire VIII x 19
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 36


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 3 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 122 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 29
N1K1-J George x 6



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 13
Thunderbolt I x 22
Spitfire VIII x 19
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 72


Japanese aircraft losses
J7W1 Shinden: 12 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 169 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 8
A7M2 Sam x 84



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 13
Thunderbolt I x 20
Spitfire VIII x 19
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 64


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zero: 2 destroyed
A7M2 Sam: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed
Thunderbolt I: 1 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed



After this kind of morning...in the afternoon more fightings....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 137 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 13
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 7
Ki-100-I Tony x 1



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 11
Thunderbolt I x 18
Spitfire VIII x 16
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 60


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 7 destroyed
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 151 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 5
Ki-84r Frank x 21



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 10
Thunderbolt I x 17
Spitfire VIII x 15
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 58


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt I: 4 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sadogashima , at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 158 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 2
Ki-84r Frank x 22



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 9
Thunderbolt I x 6
Spitfire VIII x 12
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 42


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed
Thunderbolt I: 1 destroyed
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 6 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 114,56

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 6



Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 6
Thunderbolt I x 5
Spitfire VIII x 9
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-36 Ida: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses












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(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 2/1/2012 12:35:33 AM   
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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 2/1/2012 12:36:04 AM   
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RE: Angels over Sadogashima - 2/1/2012 12:36:40 AM   
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