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RE: Rethinking turn 1

 
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RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/14/2011 10:08:05 PM   
castlebravo


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/28/2011
Status: offline 		Look at it this way. 16 units can set up a 8x5 checkerboard that takes 6 battles to penetrate. If you can afford to isolate and not destroy 16 Russian divisions, that is essentially a Front/MD's (or two) worth of unit coverage that will be denied to the Russians at a fairly critical juncture in the 41 opening. I'm not in favor of the routing instead of destroying strategy, but I think I might try the isolate and forget strategy. It will give the minor power units something to do besides chase partisans through the swamps.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 31
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/14/2011 10:36:05 PM   
Mynok


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Those units are going to come back as green troops with almost zero fighting ability. I'm not worried about them.


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Post #: 32
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/14/2011 11:00:31 PM   
Lava


Posts: 1627
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Well... I'm not saying it isn't important to destroy the Soviet Army. I'm saying that I think it is more important to take critical objectives.

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Post #: 33
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/14/2011 11:03:33 PM   
Mynok


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The only critical objective is Leningrad. If the opportunity arises to take come Donbas industry, I would put that in the 'worth the effort' category.

Otherwise, the primary raison d'etre of the Germans is to destroy Soviets.

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Post #: 34
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/15/2011 9:34:10 AM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 128
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From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Not to spoil the thread here, but personally, I think the evolution of "best moves" for each front sector is somehow a bit uncomfortable. It is a matter of taste of course, but my personal preference is for wargames to be simulations with a degree of uncertainty.

IIRC it has been suggested by someone in some other thread, but I think there might be some merit to a slight randomization of the locations of the initial Soviet forces. That would create enough uncertainty that there wouldn't eventually evolve a set of predefined options.


I fully agree with that. Could be some free placement for German/Russian too as suggested in an other thread.

And the editor is not a very user friendly way to do that IMHO.

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Post #: 35
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/15/2011 2:01:26 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1878
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think there will ever be a "set" strategy on the opening. There will always be some variation based on how all the combat goes, interdiction on movement, etc. In addition, players will have different priorities which will affect what forces go where.

While the game doesn't feature a random opening as far as unit placement, it does feature changes to starting Russian forces in terms of starting moral being random on a per unit basis. This in turn affects the various combats, etc.

Part of the issue with doing stuff with the editor is the community at large has no interest such scenario/campaign changes probably in part because it gives one side or the other an advantage.

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Post #: 36
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/15/2011 5:12:28 PM   
Lava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The only critical objective is Leningrad. If the opportunity arises to take come Donbas industry, I would put that in the 'worth the effort' category.

Otherwise, the primary raison d'etre of the Germans is to destroy Soviets.


If that is true... than it makes for a fairly limited game. Wouldn't you say?

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Post #: 37
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/15/2011 5:31:04 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12069
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		Surely not. All kinds of things can happen and the possible means of achieving those objectives are varied. Lots of room for tactical innovation.

Of course, anyone is free to make their own strategic objectives. But the design of the game makes Leningrad and the Donbas industry the ones with the highest rewards.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 3/15/2011 5:32:26 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/15/2011 5:34:07 PM   
castlebravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The only critical objective is Leningrad. If the opportunity arises to take come Donbas industry, I would put that in the 'worth the effort' category.

Otherwise, the primary raison d'etre of the Germans is to destroy Soviets.


If that is true... than it makes for a fairly limited game. Wouldn't you say?


Arguably, this is largely an artifact of the Finish no-attack line. If this was removed, then it would allow the Germans a much more dynamic strategy, because the German blizzard defense in the north almost entirely hinges on freeing up the Finns by taking Leningrad.

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Post #: 39
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 3/16/2011 5:10:05 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

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Status: offline 		Very well put Klydon! I like your comment and very valid point as well!

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Post #: 40
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 4/4/2011 6:45:39 AM   
majeloz

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Reviving this thread... I have now used my standard Axis opening, almost identical in results (the moves differ sometimes depending on what exactly happens to the Soviet CVs in Turn 1), and got several completely different turn 2s because, as they say, no plan survives contact with the enemy. The challenge is, I think, not to have this or that objective but to weigh up the likelihood of success in competing objectives depending on how the Soviet player responds. In this respect, it's a game... but it does model operational realities to the extent that most military successes come from either a) sticking to the objective when it might seem prudent to change (eg not letting your opponent force you to play their 'game') or b) seizing an unexpected oppportunity which is not a mistake by the enemy so much as a change in the operational situation such that a new, better objective emerges.

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Post #: 41
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 4:13:23 PM   
mr_flappypants

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't think there will ever be a "set" strategy on the opening. There will always be some variation based on how all the combat goes, interdiction on movement, etc. In addition, players will have different priorities which will affect what forces go where.


This. And I hope there is NEVER a set strategy then the game turns into one gigantic puzzle. I like the amount of dynamics, depth, and variation in the game that allows for vastly different schools of thought on what is the best. This adds dramatically to the replay value. Don't get me wrong, I love the old Panzer General games even if it does boil down to a puzzle but I also classify it under a 'coffee-table' game, one that is quick to play yet fun. This game is not and should never be like that at all. (Can't wait for Panzer Corps to come out soon)

< Message edited by mr_flappypants -- 5/2/2011 4:15:42 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 4:21:03 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1281
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From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I use various openings depending on what I feel like. I never want to make it just "do this and get that" type of beginning. I have done the "extra PzCorps to Leningrad" or the "Two extra corps to the south" openings, or even the horribly bland "Use what I have where it is and make do" opening. I have found that no matter what I do, the holds, routs, retreat lines, CV end results, all make the opening different.

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Post #: 43
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 6:53:39 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 1143
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: London
Status: offline 		Another well-known strategy game manages to be quite varied even with 2 identical, fixed set-up armies on 64 hexes of clear terrain and single unit IGO/UGO system with fixed combat results.

Why anyone intelligent plays a game like that when they can play WiTE is beyond me. Obviously it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.

Ok, I haven't been 100% honest above. The other game is played on squares not hexes but that should make it less interesting.....

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 5/2/2011 7:01:19 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 7:08:10 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1281
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Pfft, I wouldn't play a game like that unless it had something cool like horse soldiers and perhaps religious leaders. I would add in something to defend, maybe royalty?

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Post #: 45
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 7:27:52 PM   
mr_flappypants

 

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Joined: 4/26/2011
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quote:

it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.


Honestly, with complex games such as WitE, I find it difficult for me to play the game, not because I'm any less intelligent, but because I am aware of all the variables to where I overthink everything to the point where I am nearly afraid to actually do anything. Chalk it up to OCD I guess. I need to just power through a few turns on the Grand Campaign (the smaller maps are much easier for me to conquer) to get over it. I don't find it boring... I find it extremely exciting and even... academic.

Wow, today I learned that I would make a horrible battlefield general.

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Post #: 46
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 7:58:27 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

quote:

it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.


Honestly, with complex games such as WitE, I find it difficult for me to play the game, not because I'm any less intelligent, but because I am aware of all the variables to where I overthink everything to the point where I am nearly afraid to actually do anything. Chalk it up to OCD I guess. I need to just power through a few turns on the Grand Campaign (the smaller maps are much easier for me to conquer) to get over it. I don't find it boring... I find it extremely exciting and even... academic.

Wow, today I learned that I would make a horrible battlefield general.

I sometimes suffer from this, as well. It's called "Analysis Paralysis".

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Post #: 47
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 8:20:24 PM   
Mynok


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Yep, sometimes ya just gotta wing it and fling it, hoping all the while someone doesn't turn on the fan.


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Post #: 48
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 9:22:32 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1281
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Read my sig quote from Nappy.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

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Post #: 49
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 9:28:04 PM   
mr_flappypants

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Read my sig quote from Nappy.


When I know I can take all the time in the world to make a decision (save, walk away, load, etc.) I hardly do anything. Give me a time limit and I know I would have moved all those suckers by now.

Maybe thats what I should do (built in feature request? Just kidding). I think I just solved my own problem.

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Post #: 50
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 10:56:44 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1878
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		I supposed I can now let everyone in on my secret chief of staff that helps me tremendously with decisions.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 51
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 5/2/2011 11:16:10 PM   
mr_flappypants

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I supposed I can now let everyone in on my secret chief of staff that helps me tremendously with decisions.




Here's mine. I streamlined the process.

Citation [http://www.kudit.com/desktop/kudit.php?section=2&shortname=coinflip]




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 52
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 6/22/2011 7:19:30 AM   
Wally Wilson


Posts: 98
Joined: 6/22/2011
From: The Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		My 2 cents is that if you are playing against a Soviet human player, you go to destroy the army. However, a merely decent player won't allow you to deeply encircle him. A pocket at Minsk is more or less inevitable, and possible a smaller one at Lvov. Anymore is a gift. CUt the Soviet lines, slow down the retreat, rout any units you can. Routing units are going to be losing equipment as are destroyed units. 1941 resurrected units draw from the replacement pool. So killing a unit basiclly consumes twice the units equipment. Also, if you don't kill Soviet units they will be on your side of the Moscow defence line. Resurrected units will be on the far side of the Moscow defence zone reading to be used in the Winter Counteroffensive. So keep that in mind.

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Post #: 53
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 11/4/2011 1:01:28 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 17298
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From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: offline 		No posting on the turn 1 guide since June?  WTF?

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Post #: 54
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 11/4/2011 8:59:01 AM   
Krec


Posts: 548
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From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline 		go figure

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Post #: 55
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 11/25/2011 5:04:31 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 8403
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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I was thinking about routed units coming back, wouldn't they be in the same,"future" pocket in turns 2-4 .. I guess I do not see the problem with routing red army forces t1.. its not like they reform far away where they could be protected.. or am I missing something critical?
thanks

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Post #: 56
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 11/28/2011 10:32:43 PM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		and if I rout and re rout red army troops, seems an easy way to build experience

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Post #: 57
RE: Rethinking turn 1 - 11/28/2011 11:27:51 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1878
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Status: offline 		A lot depends on where you are routing them and what your plans are.

Granted, routing a pile of units in the south where there are going to be piles of units regardless is not as big of a deal, although routing mountain divisions (which never come back if surrounded and destroyed) and allowing them to escape is not wise.

In the north, especially in the AGN area, a good German turn 1 can leave the Russians with very little or nothing left to move to block further German advances. Speed is of the essence in the north if the Germans are serious about making a stab at Leningrad and the more units the Russians have to rail in to try to slow down the advance just means they get thinner elsewhere and it is not always practical to rail everything to the spot you need it to be at up there.

Besides the destruction of Russian manpower and nailing as much as you can in the armaments department (both you can do in 1941), the other big thing the Germans must look at is removing Russian counters from the game (Can't do that until late 1941 and it becomes what 1942 is all about).

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Post #: 58
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