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RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER)

 
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RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 2:49:38 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Probably, but how can we be sure unless you try?

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 91
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 2:51:25 PM   
Mehring

 

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Oleg, you may be right about my unilateral declaration of victory but I've been somewhere very similar before, the only difference that my oppenent tried to fight it out over winter. In that case, I broke through his line nearly all across the front and went streaming westwards.

Diplomacy is not my thing and perhaps there's no way to put this nicely to defend my position. Kamil is not improving in my view and he's making all the wrong decisions, making a bad situation worse. Kamil advertised for an expert Russian opponent so I was expecting a very challenging game. It hasn't turned out that way and it is a considerable time investment which I feel I could spend better looking for the game I wanted in the first place.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 92
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 2:56:12 PM   
Kamil

 

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So What is your conclusion Mehring. It's not worth playing people who won't eliminate at least 3,5M. Because anything less is chain of mistakes?

I am asking, because it seems to me, that logical consequence of you approach is playing only "GC" campaign jun 41- nov 41.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 3/30/2011 2:57:25 PM >

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 93
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 3:07:11 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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I really don't have a horse in this race. I came to this thread just because Kamil, who I know from some previous games, asked me to take a look and comment on the game, and his long term chances. His long term chances are obviously very very low, no doubt about it.

So while I agree with your assessment of the situation Mehring, I disagree with the way you handle this. It's not just "diplomacy" as you put it, it's some basic etiquette. Your opponent invested time in this game too. We've seen all sorts of things in AARs, games being abandoned, surrendered prematurely, people giving up while they still had a chance.... but this is the first time I see a guy declaring "victory" unilateraly and refusing to continue, because the war, in his opinion, is already won. If other players start acting like this we may see many "declarations of victory" even though according to game rules it's not over yet.

Surrendering the game is OK, declaring victory when it's not over yet is just rude. IMO you should at least play through the blizzards. Just my opinion (Kamil specifically asked for it). Now please carry on.

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 94
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 3:09:16 PM   
Mehring

 

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Determining a victory or loss is to determine the value of an interrelation of losses, surviving forces, ground taken and industry destroyed. If I had lost only 3M men but you had wiped a load of factories and captured a load of important terrain and cities you were intent upon defending, yes, it would be worth continuing. But you haven't, and you're not. Sorry.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 95
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 3:14:56 PM   
Mehring

 

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Oleg, yes it is rude to unilaterally end a game, I acknowledge that. It is also rude and selfish for for a player to advertise for an expert opponent without telling them they are themselves, a beginner.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 96
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 4:00:22 PM   
timmyab

 

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I must say that I agree with Mehring on this one.A withdrawal from Russia at this point is equal to surrendering,IMO.If you can't achieve your objectives in 1941 then you've got precisely no chance in 1942.It would really be just a waste of time to play on.
In a way it would be interesting to see the game played out, but my money would be on a Soviet 1943 win.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 97
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 4:56:29 PM   
Aditia

 

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Apart from anything else, I am intrigued by the "south first approach". The south offers the best tank country in Russia, and a preponderance of force there could give the German player a lot of manouverability to try force Soviet defences to keep moving.

In the North I would keep enough strength to at least be able to get to the Narva and Pskov with sufficient force to defend

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 98
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 6:52:09 PM   
Kamil

 

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I am just curious, so I ask here instead of starting new topic.

Soviet start with 3997 Manpower production. Around November I guess Mehring got 2800, with practically intact industry.

How big impact on his army would have this 1000 more manpower?

I am asking because I suspect, that if I stood my ground I fought him he would probably regained half of it, so his spring army would be smaller.

I am asking because I don't know formula to count it

a) state of his army with manpower increased by 1000
b) state of his army with manpower increased by 500
c) strength of my shattered by winter army
d) strength of my rested army

question is - is a:d (I retreated) > b:c (I fought) ?

If not, then I don't understand opinion, that I should fight inside Russian territory

Can you please explain?


< Message edited by Kamil -- 3/30/2011 6:53:26 PM >

(in reply to Aditia)
Post #: 99
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 8:36:24 PM   
Mehring

 

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Your two dimensional posing of the question goes some way to explaining why you are not succeeding in a complex game like WitE.

Let's assume you successfully retreat to your non-attrition defence line without major loss. I follow you to a line of my choice and dig in. We both refit over the winter and you are then confronted by a defensive wall 3 or 4 hexes deep of level 3, 4, even level 5 forts. You will probably spend most of the summer trying to break through the line as I increase in experience, morale, leadership and combat capabilities of all sorts. You will have no first turn bonus, I will have no railcap penalty. The best you could possibly achieve is what you should have gained in 1941, but realisticly, you won't because the entire co-relation of forces has changed.

You will probably run out of oil as a couple of well placed strikes on Ploesti and Bucharest with 500 odd Pe8 and IL4 will have crippled your oil production.

Alternatively, you attempt to hold in Russia, and organise a fighting withdrawal when the blizzard starts, to a defencible position. You will suffer serious losses, perhaps crippling, depending on the skill of your defence. You may well end up knocked out of Russia anyway, but given an adequate defence, I will be weakened as well as you by the winter fighting. I will have had less time to dig defences and you probably will have less distance to advance before reaching important objectives.

Even if you hold in Russia you're batting on a very sticky wicket. But to withdraw shows me that the monster strike I thought might be deliverered from an unexpected direction by the experienced player you implicitly made yourself out to be, is just not going to come.

Clearly, the relationship between my additional manpower and the manpower, actually, both of us have lost, not just you, in your defending within Russia, is only a small part of the equation you sneeded to have considered.


_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 100
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 9:08:59 PM   
mikemcmann

 

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Time for a venn diagram in words...

A: I never want to play condescending, egotistical, blow hards

B: mehring is a condescending, egotistical , blow hard

C: I never want to play mehring

Seriously dude, you have major issues.......

Kamil, you are doing fine in this game. I call it your victory if he whines and quits.....

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 101
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 9:24:36 PM   
Mehring

 

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Luv ya 2 sweethart ;)

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to mikemcmann)
Post #: 102
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 9:32:10 PM   
Kamil

 

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Ok, so from what I understand you say I have no chance to win regardless anything, right?

If that is so it is ok, I can live with that, especially that other guys share same opinion (although I would be curious actually to check it myself). Thing I didn't get was reaction to my withdrawal.

Just to be clear, regardless of your opinion about me, I enjoyed our game, and I write it only to say am not criticising you as a opponent or player. Well, I even almost recomend you (although it will mean not much, hehe).

I just didn't get why you reacted that way.

Now I know, it wasn't about withdrawal so I don't have to ask more. Thanks.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 3/30/2011 9:41:04 PM >

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 103
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 3/30/2011 10:16:29 PM   
Mehring

 

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I'd say you had a slim chance of winning if you'd stayed in Russia, absolutely none by withdrawing.

Kamil, just as I could see your frustration building with your complaints about the mud etc, mine has been building from the ease with which I was winning. I've been looking a while for a tough opponent. Blowing hard, as is apparently my way, I have won 2 of my PBEMs, am winning a third, and then there's ours. It hasn't particularly taxed me. I answered your post because you were looking for an expert opponent. I thought I was winging it, as you will see from numerous posts , I refer to my limited experience. But the Russian has chances to make mistakes and learn and I do learn from mistakes, usually quite fast.

I'm frustrated by the ease with which I'm winning games, playing either side, maybe mikemcmann wouldn't understand. I know there are players out there who can cut me down to size or give me a run for my money. I've just started new games so I'm hoping.

Annoyance aside, I wish you well, and yes, our game had its moments for me too, particularly when you outflanked my army near Nikolaev- I didn't see that coming.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 104
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 3:31:26 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Ok, so from what I understand you say I have no chance to win regardless anything, right?

If that is so it is ok, I can live with that, especially that other guys share same opinion (although I would be curious actually to check it myself). Thing I didn't get was reaction to my withdrawal.

Just to be clear, regardless of your opinion about me, I enjoyed our game, and I write it only to say am not criticising you as a opponent or player. Well, I even almost recomend you (although it will mean not much, hehe).

I just didn't get why you reacted that way.

Now I know, it wasn't about withdrawal so I don't have to ask more. Thanks.


You are right at being curious about the supposed clear USSR victory. I think you should continue until the result is clear for both players. If one player does not see it, then we have the victory conditions created by the developers to that effect. It is a pity that your opponent conceded the game so easily by quitting.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 4/3/2011 10:06:39 AM >

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 105
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 3:33:03 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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I declare this thread over and PDH the winner!

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 106
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 3:51:31 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I declare this thread over and PDH the winner!


HAHAHAHA! I hadn't seen this AAR. So a player declares his opponent has lost

Quite surrealistic. And a good laugh

P.S.: anyway, the German plan in the north was quite surrealistic too. What I don't understand is why the Soviet player did not throw many hordes against Prussia

_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 107
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 5:16:21 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I declare this thread over and PDH the winner!


HAHAHAHA! I hadn't seen this AAR. So a player declares his opponent has lost

Quite surrealistic. And a good laugh

P.S.: anyway, the German plan in the north was quite surrealistic too. What I don't understand is why the Soviet player did not throw many hordes against Prussia


Wish I thought of declaring myself the winner.

So I revise my previous scores. Instead of 2 losses and 1 draw, I have 3 wins.

Wow, undefeated as the Soviets. All Axis players beware........

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 108
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 10:20:07 AM   
Mehring

 

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Maybe you needed to play the game to see what was happening and whether of not it was worth continuing.

I don't subscribe to the view that understanding only comes after the fact. In this case, the general outlook was predictable well in advance and I don't have the time or interest to pursue it. Anyone want to take over the game and prove it to themselves?

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 109
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 11:20:31 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Maybe you needed to play the game to see what was happening and whether of not it was worth continuing.

I don't subscribe to the view that understanding only comes after the fact. In this case, the general outlook was predictable well in advance and I don't have the time or interest to pursue it. Anyone want to take over the game and prove it to themselves?


It is you and your opponent who have to decide if it is worth continuing. If he wants to continue and you don't want to, you have the option to tell him that playing further is not interesting for you, resign the game and quit.

It should be recognized that instead of you being a simple quitter, you have shown your creativity by doing that process after declaring yourself the winner: a rare occurrence in any game or sport...

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 110
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 11:36:00 AM   
Mehring

 

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Ok, I'm fine with that. Having driven the Axis out of Russia in autumn 1941, I surrender!

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 111
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 11:37:51 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Maybe you needed to play the game to see what was happening and whether of not it was worth continuing.

I don't subscribe to the view that understanding only comes after the fact. In this case, the general outlook was predictable well in advance and I don't have the time or interest to pursue it. Anyone want to take over the game and prove it to themselves?


I'm playing Mikemcmann's Germans. His position is far worse than Kamil's. End 1st blizzard I didn't manage to retake Riga but Finns bottled in Leningrad, I am sereral hexes west on Minsk and in the South I even recaptured Kishnev which is perhaps a record. Casualties 1.5M axis (lots of Rumanians though) to 2.4M good guys.

I have tried declaring myself as the winner but we are playing to historical victory conditions and he claims he's still winning! I am therefore forced to re-educate him the hard way which will be great fun......unless I fail of course and I will never hear the end of it. I don't expect much offensive action from him in '42 so it's going to be more like WW1.

To give Mike credit he's not just mouth and he will fight until Berlin falls and will undoubtedly still carry on like the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail if he can. After all he's already proved to be an adept von Robin.

I'm not wasting my time playing him at all. I asked for an experienced opponent who would not give in and I got exactly what I asked for. Yes, I know the proverb.

In my German GC vs Belphegor I won't give in until the bitter end either. More to the point I don't expect Belphegor to either.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 112
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 11:55:13 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Maybe you needed to play the game to see what was happening and whether of not it was worth continuing.

Anyone want to take over the game and prove it to themselves?


Given what I have posted, yes I will subject to the following
1 we revert to historical VPs not game ones.
2 you give me 1 turn to sort things out in which you don't advance anywhere. Neither of us does any attacks that turn either.
3 You are patient as a work overload, which is unlikely to end before August ( I'm expecting the trial in July), means I won't be that speedy unless turns don't need me to do much. I won't be able to do 1st turn until next w'end.
4 at end dec we wait for 1.04 beta patch
5 the hardest condition of all - you have (to pretend) to laugh at my jokes.

Let's see how hard you blow :)

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 113
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 12:20:17 PM   
Mehring

 

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If you can get the password off kamil, I'll give it a bash. The slow pace is appealing as I can get on with other games. But what are historical VPs?



< Message edited by Mehring -- 4/3/2011 12:32:07 PM >


_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 114
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 12:31:43 PM   
sillyflower


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automatic by time Berlin fell IRL

Alternatively you set the date you expect to get auto victory and we will use that yardsick. I don't expect to last until May 45.

I will pm Kamil but perhaps you can email him if you have his address. Do you know how I get the game when I have the p/word?

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 115
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 12:33:03 PM   
Mehring

 

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Actually, you'll have to get the game file from Kamil as well. I think we could restart the game before he starts his withdrawal if you like. I've deleted all my files but probably still have the email attachments if needed.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 116
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 12:35:00 PM   
Mehring

 

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ok, I got the email attachments, we can restart where you like, I'll email Kamil

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 117
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 12:41:36 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

TulliusDetritus

P.S.: anyway, the German plan in the north was quite surrealistic too. What I don't understand is why the Soviet player did not throw many hordes against Prussia


He did throw his forces towards Riga and then Prussia, and that was effect






btw, what is the point playing that game if I "lost" (hehe)

I already knew I won't win the game, so I kept pressure on Moscow just to give Mehring chance to do some attacks. It worked 2 times, that one was most successfully. 3rd wasn't near Moscow but idea was the same.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 4/3/2011 1:01:23 PM >

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 118
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 1:16:43 PM   
sillyflower


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I've got p'word from K. Suggest start G turn 18 but happy to take your advice as I'm not sure where you had got to which might make 1st snow more appropriate

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 119
RE: GC 41, Mehring (SOV) Kamil (GER) - 4/3/2011 5:13:24 PM   
Mehring

 

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Either's fine by me, taking over the game you're at a disadvantage, so your choice. Take your time studying the situation and drop me a PM if you need any background information.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 120
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