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Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:07:03 PM   
squatter

 

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Just noticed that divisions who end their turn entrained still suffer from Axis first winter penalties.

I can think of few better places to be in arctic Russia when the weather closes in than huddled with a bunch of other people on a train.

I realise that a week turn spent on a train is going to involve changing trains, and a short amount outside, but essentially these guys are in one of the best places they could be, surely? Their winter attrition losses should be nowhere near the same as a unit that has spent the week retreating through some godforsaken frozen swamp.

Is this WAD?
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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:08:53 PM   
2ndACR


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Yep, I believe it is. Hard to be the Germans when your new units look almost as bad as the front line guys after a few turns.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:10:19 PM   
cookie monster


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Glad to hear it otherwise the Axis fanboys would be entraining units to escape the winter.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:15:20 PM   
squatter

 

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Ahem, so you guys think this is realistic?

Where would you rather be when it's sub-zero outside - in a train carriage with 50 other people, or sitting in a fox hole miles from anywhere? In which situation do you feel that you would more likely contract frostbite?

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:17:32 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Not a defense, but a statement here. Since many frostbite cases in Russia came about when German soldiers went to relieve themselves (seriously), those stops to detrain for a bit could be deadly.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:18:15 PM   
2ndACR


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Nope, I hate the current blizzard rules. If I am not mistaken, historically, the units that arrived during the winter months brought winter gear.

Foxholes are okay, be surprised at how warm you can get once you get below ground out of the wind. That is the killer, the wind.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:20:52 PM   
squatter

 

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**** through the trapdoor in the carriage floor. Simple.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 4:29:44 PM   
Texas D


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You would be surprised by how much heat a single candle can put out when in a foxhole during winter.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 5:00:51 PM   
squatter

 

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Well, if being in a foxhole when is so plush, what's with the Axis first winter rule in the first place!!

Come on, a week on a train is going to be like paradise compared to a week in the field during Russian winter.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 5:09:25 PM   
2ndACR


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Did not say it would not be better.

I have been in a foxhole during -20 temps with I have no clue wind chill in Alaska. Of course we also had arctic gear. But I still unzipped gear when in the hole because I got warm enough to sweat and that is a bad thing.

The rule is why some of us want some options.



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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 5:22:19 PM   
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Good point - I can just imagine the Germans saying, "sure, its -30 below on the Eastern Front, but let's make sure we send all of our reinforcements in with their summer gear instead, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?"

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 7:44:26 PM   
NinetyNine

 

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I'm pretty sure that the entrained concept is an abstraction of transportation, and is working as intended.

Also, the phrase "Let's put half the eastern front on trains to protect them from the elements" was probably never uttered by the O.K.W. staff.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 8:44:33 PM   
squatter

 

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Well, the current abstraction of being entrained allows a unit to travel, what, 1000km in a week.

The first conclusion from that abstraction is that the unit must be considered on a train for most of that time.

The second point about the current abstraction is that as far as first winter rules are concerned, the unit is considered for attrition depending on its final hex. So if you travel those 1000km, and end that trip in a city, you are clean. Even if as far as game time is concerned, you spent about the final five mins of your week in that location. No matter, you're protected. Or if a unit enters as reinforcement on the western edge, trains to one hex inside the blizzard area, he wakes up next turn with frostbite, despite having spent five minutes in the blizzard.

Not a very pleasing abstraction, really.

Admittedly, there would be scope for abuse if the Axis can use entrainment as winter cover. So thinking about it, I have no perfect answer.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/9/2011 8:53:12 PM   
Zort

 

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Well I think one solution would be not to allow troops to move by train east of the start line until spring 42 when the rail lines could move more people.  As I understand it the rails were reserved for supplies for 41 and early 42.  

< Message edited by Zort -- 3/9/2011 8:54:07 PM >

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 7:25:43 AM   
LiquidSky


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German trains didnt work too well in the cold weather.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 9:54:21 AM   
ool


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Actually you are wrong about bringing their own winter gear. One unit was transferred from France and came with their summer wear. They fought so well near Leningrad that Russians expressed high praise for their valour considering they were dressed in summer gear. Others may have come with some winter gear but overall the Germans didn't believe they would need any that they didn't plan for it. Instead once the reality hit that they wouldn't win quickly and winter hit they started a nation wide request for winter clothing donations to hastily come up with some winter wear to outfit the troops.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 3:27:57 PM   
barkman44

 

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that unit was the 81st infantry division which was transported by train and went almost immediatly into combat south of lake ilmen with absolutly no winter gear.from the atlantic coast to the russian front in the midst of winter thats tough!!!
also the jouney took 13 days 2 weeks in game time.

< Message edited by barkorn45 -- 3/10/2011 3:30:13 PM >

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 4:09:09 PM   
ool


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They were tough alright. Impressed the hell out of the Russians. Very hard thing to do that winter.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 4:37:09 PM   
marty_01

 

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My two or three cents…I think giving entrained German units some sort of immunity to winter effects is immensely gamey. Yes it’s a game, but I’m for reducing gamey aspects of the game when possible. Otherwise I might just as well be spending my time playing monopoly rather than a wargame dealing with the East Front. call Boardwalk the Kremlin and Park Place can be Leningrad. I can only speak for myself, but my expectations are a bit higher in terms simulation vs. game. Obviously abstraction can't be avoided but I don't see there being anything gained in a simulation by giving Axis uints protection from the cold by keeping them permenatly entrained during winter months.

As someone already suggested, we would start seeing the standard axis tactic for the winter of 41-42 of reserve troops kept in uber-cramped box cars for weeks at a time. I don’t think we are typically talking about Amtrak and Pullman cars and comfy sleeper cars transporting large formations around Russia. This isn’t to say that this didn’t occur, but I’d hazard to guess that a lot of troop transport involved packing simple box cars with men and equipment. In terms of larger equipment and larger weapons remaining permanently entrained during cold weather, what advantage is gained by a Panzer that’s sitting in the open on a flat car and suffering from extreme cold, vs. the same vehicle sitting out on the steppes in the same extreme cold? Aren’t the lubricants and such just as likely to freeze up in either case?

I’d be more inclined toward looking elsewhere for possible ways to “realistically” reduce cold weather effects on the Axis during the winter of 41-42. Perhaps cold weather effects should be somewhat reduced as a function of units being hunkered down in prepared positions; ala units within built-up areas – urban, city, etc. But how to implement in terms of the existing game code? How is the current system modeling units within urban areas – do they get a break from cold weather effects – if yes can this set of routines be extrapolated to units within prepared positions? In addition, do you make it such that the unit has to be in the entrenchment the entire turn – zero movement -- in order to gain the benefit of reduced cold weather effects? Or do you require the unit be set to STATIC mode while in an entrenched position in order to reduced cold weather effects. If the latter, that means lotz of Admin points to pull the like back out of static mode once the winter passes.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 5:01:11 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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hm, german trains (transport trains) were at last closed - so the wind chill was low. Also so many people at so less room kept em warm

but why bother with it  some people "know" hat the german troops in the rails (yes, they were MOSTLY in the trains) need to be frostbiten as the guys out in the open terrain... yeah!
And don´t forget, that the whole russian army was winterized, had no frostbite and no ill suited soldiers

One question spring to my mind: why did the russians suck so deeply by having such (in gameplay) ultimate better situation? I think, if the game is true, the russian winter offensive should have crushed the axis troops with ease and should throw back the frontline to the oder... right?

For the "gamey" aspect... as long as normal gameplay cause not historical frontlines and historical results, maybe the game is gamey?
Sure, nobody should move all the axis troops in trains... but at last in the first week (and with some historical research) or the whole blizzard (if the troops were winterized, and yes, some should be) the troops should have "original" combat efficency...

same should be true if you withdraw troops in better climate zones, rest and move back.
At last it sound not too stupid, that your troops after resting 3-4 weeks in normal climate, resupplied and with winter cloths should have better combat values... but who em i...

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 5:55:41 PM   
squatter

 

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"I think giving entrained German units some sort of immunity to winter effects is immensely gamey... I can only speak for myself, but my expectations are a bit higher in terms simulation vs. game."

I'm sorry but this just doesnt make sense. The suggestion is to make the game MORE realistic as a simulation by reflecting the fact that troops on trains - like these guys shipped out from France in a two week trip - would NOT arrive at the front completely wrecked and combat unready, in just as bad a shape as those units who have spent those same two weeks p*ssing icicles and literally freezing to death in a wind-swept trench somewhere east of Kharkov.

This is not a suggestion aimed at addressing perceived imbalances in the Axis First Winter rule, just as simple observation of one tiny detail that I for one would suggest the game is not representing realistically.  

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 6:12:02 PM   
Mynok


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The devs time would be far better spent correcting the balance of the first winter rules.

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RE: Winter on the Orient Express - 3/10/2011 8:06:28 PM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Nope, I hate the current blizzard rules. If I am not mistaken, historically, the units that arrived during the winter months brought winter gear.

Foxholes are okay, be surprised at how warm you can get once you get below ground out of the wind. That is the killer, the wind.



That's true, but it doesn't help win it is filled with snow or water.

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