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RE: WINTER OF 41

 
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RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 1:46:12 AM   
tancred41

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Montreal, QC, Canada
Status: offline 		Here's my 2 cents worth from the cheap seats:

I bought WITE pretty much when it came out and have played 3 games against a buddy, each one up until December. These games spanned from the very first release right up to 1.05.

Yes, the winter 41 implementation needs further tweaking. But we noticed great improvements as Matrix and 2by3 listened to users and implemented incremental changes and fixes at a blazing pace, each one providing improvements. I work in IT and am amazed at the level of support these guys are providing.

They will get this game to where it needs to be to satisfy their customers - there's no doubt about it. But these things take time, and a large user base in order to spot the otherwise unspottable. (I recently put an app into pilot after months of testing with a team of 5. Days after we had broadened the base to 100 users, we had a list of 30 new bugs or improvements to deal with !)

WITE-wise, my opponent and I decided to take a bit of a break from redoing the opening moves of Barbarossa earlier this week. We fired up a 1942 campaign.

WOW ! Whole new situation, whole new set of challenges. It brought the first thrill right back.
And it still has 170-some turns ...

We're going to tinker with this a bit. It required a mindset change to forego the start of the campaign and "accept" a pre-set 1942 start, to be honest. But then, I harken back to my days of playing board games like Third Reich or World in Flames : One could start in 1939 (or even earlier with add-ons) and by mid-41 (or even earlier!), unleash one's own flavour of Barbarossa. Starting in 1941 with a pre-set Barbarossa in those games would have meant foregoing the ability to invade Russia "differently", and seemed like anathema. But our group eventually tired of invading Poland, France, etc. and we eventually came to 1941 starts.

Those historically-set-up 1941 starts were eye-openers, and skipping the "preliminaries" brought us to the crux of WWII.

I guess my point is that there's a tremendous amount of value in WITE for the price. Explore the other start points for a while if winter 41 has you down. It will get adjusted in good time.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 31
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 1:48:28 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4923
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
So of course our friend Oleg, with his vast experience of one whole turn of blizzard as the Axis chimes in and says "what about the AARs where the Axis have gone in in a better condition, and come out worse"?




I love you too Big, no kidding I truely believe you testers are doing a great job. Just don't give up yet, and don't let those tactless bastr'ds on the public forum sidetrack you with their "vast experience".....

I believe we all have one sensible goal, regardless of fanboyism, and that's to finally get the HvH 41 GC in *playable* (kinda realistic/historic) state in spring 42. I think you will agree so far in all AARs and player stories it simply didn't happen.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 32
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 1:54:26 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4923
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
I was just trying to point out that if you take Leningrad, sit on the outskirts of Moscow and fort up in Rostov after inflicting 3,000,000 casualties then you are in for a very rough winter. OTOH if you are holding the line Riga-Minsk-Vinnitsa-Odessa after slaughtering 5,000,000 then you should count on an auto victory NLT mid43.


That is correct, however it's incredibly hard to inflict that many casualties in HvH game.... so the game should find a way to "award" Axis players for territory not only casualties.

Common sense would suggest that Axis player is (sort of) awarded for the territory he took by the VP system, where he can retreat slowly, and, having more territory than historic Axis, may win on points in 45. However, that is not the case if in blizzard he loses all that he gained (and more).

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 33
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 2:33:27 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1555
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Oleg this continuos complaining about the blizzard is now mute until the developers unveil their modification. Joel has indicated that sometime in 1.04 they intend to mod the winter. We can safely assume it will benifit the German army/hinder the Russian army. So we may as well be patient now see what transpires.

As far as the Russian run away strategy goes it means that Russia will loose much industry and manpower against any competent German. The new rail costs make it impossible to get the bulk of it out in time. So Russia faces the decision of either loose army or loose teritory/industry/manpower. Either = Bad.

As for how that will play out in the post 1.04 world of blizzard no one can tell at this stage.



_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 34
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 3:48:00 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12069
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I bought WITE pretty much when it came out and have played 3 games against a buddy, each one up until December. These games spanned from the very first release right up to 1.05.


A post from the future!?!

Do tell us how things are in release 1.05!


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown


(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 35
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 6:46:00 AM   
Skanvak

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline 		Pom, what do you mean by winning? Gamewise or ideal?

As for the 2 waves of supermen. I report what have been written in other thread : isn't the low loses of the German a result of the Soviet Strategy? Historically the soviet counter attack a lot which in the end did damaged the German manpower. The corrolary point of view is that the ability to the soviet to launch lots of counter-attacks is linked to the fact that they save a lots of manpower (I do think the winter help a lots but to which extend?).

Before wanting to solve the 2 waves of supermen, one need to sort out the part due to strategy (which is fine and shouldn't be change) and the part due to the rules (that should be tweaked). The only way : try to mimic historical event.


_____________________________


Best regards

Skanvak

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 36
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 7:50:46 AM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
From: Center of the universe (Lippoldsweiler in Württemb
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xian

Well, how badly do you get mauled? Historically they had to take the front hundreds of kilometers back in some spots.


okay, i know i repeat myself...

IF the germans push to far they should get kicked in winter 41.
If they do better as the historical results, they should be better prepared.

Also - the germans were kicked back in CERTAIN areas, causing huge losses.
In the moment, blizzard say: it doesn´t matter how good the german player is, how prepared. Blizzard kicks him around and his army is shattered beyond any sense.

THAT is the problem.
Sadly it is hardcoded.... so no easy workaround.

I hope you unterstood the problem - untill know i do not belive you do - no offending words in this, just a plain answer to your comment

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy
dweebespit

(in reply to Xian)
Post #: 37
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 7:53:56 AM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
From: Center of the universe (Lippoldsweiler in Württemb
Status: offline 		+1

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy
dweebespit

(in reply to Skanvak)
Post #: 38
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 8:08:40 AM   
micha1100

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 12/26/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
I was just trying to point out that if you take Leningrad, sit on the outskirts of Moscow and fort up in Rostov after inflicting 3,000,000 casualties then you are in for a very rough winter. OTOH if you are holding the line Riga-Minsk-Vinnitsa-Odessa after slaughtering 5,000,000 then you should count on an auto victory NLT mid43.


That is correct, however it's incredibly hard to inflict that many casualties in HvH game.... so the game should find a way to "award" Axis players for territory not only casualties.

Common sense would suggest that Axis player is (sort of) awarded for the territory he took by the VP system, where he can retreat slowly, and, having more territory than historic Axis, may win on points in 45. However, that is not the case if in blizzard he loses all that he gained (and more).


I haven't tried it but I strongly doubt that killing 5,000,000 Soviets will result in an automatic German victory if the Wehrmacht only reached the mentioned line by the first winter. I could be wrong but I'd imagine all the production from the unconquered cities would make a Soviet recovery possible, especially given the time necessary to take the vast areas still held by the Red Army.

I also don't believe that common sense suggests that the VP system should automatically reward the German player for taking more territory than historical. If you overextend to take territory and get crushed because of that then there is obviously no reason to be rewarded for that. It's different, of course, if you only get crushed because of unrealistic game mechanics.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 39
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 10:54:50 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		V1.03 blizzard survival guide published in the War Room.

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 40
RE: WINTER OF 41 - 3/3/2011 12:37:59 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
From: Center of the universe (Lippoldsweiler in Württemb
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack
I was just trying to point out that if you take Leningrad, sit on the outskirts of Moscow and fort up in Rostov after inflicting 3,000,000 casualties then you are in for a very rough winter. OTOH if you are holding the line Riga-Minsk-Vinnitsa-Odessa after slaughtering 5,000,000 then you should count on an auto victory NLT mid43.


That is correct, however it's incredibly hard to inflict that many casualties in HvH game.... so the game should find a way to "award" Axis players for territory not only casualties.

Common sense would suggest that Axis player is (sort of) awarded for the territory he took by the VP system, where he can retreat slowly, and, having more territory than historic Axis, may win on points in 45. However, that is not the case if in blizzard he loses all that he gained (and more).


I haven't tried it but I strongly doubt that killing 5,000,000 Soviets will result in an automatic German victory if the Wehrmacht only reached the mentioned line by the first winter. I could be wrong but I'd imagine all the production from the unconquered cities would make a Soviet recovery possible, especially given the time necessary to take the vast areas still held by the Red Army.

I also don't believe that common sense suggests that the VP system should automatically reward the German player for taking more territory than historical. If you overextend to take territory and get crushed because of that then there is obviously no reason to be rewarded for that. It's different, of course, if you only get crushed because of unrealistic game mechanics.


+1

me too... the germans should have no chance (by points) to win in 1941. The russians had to much manpower left to roll over.
also it has the problem that a german player just do things that are silly (like the further advance in november 1941 in real live)


_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy
dweebespit

(in reply to micha1100)
Post #: 41
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