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Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia?

 
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Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/27/2011 9:06:04 PM   
Dora09

 

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I am in a PBEM and it is mid 43.
I am planning my fighter production for early to mid 44. The Ki44IIc comes in March of 44 and the Ki84Ia in April. Of course the Ki84 looks like the obvious choice at first glance but considerig what I have learned about air combat in this game is it worth a reconsider?

Given that altitude is the most important stat, speed is the second most important with manuver being way down on the list particularly when altutude is the ruling stat, the Ki44IIc may be a better choice. The Ki44 is slower than the Ki84 (but since the Ki84 top speed is nerfed due to the assumption that Ki84s always get poor fuel regardless of how your fuel situation is in the game it is marginal), but the Ki44IIc has a higher ceiling (38k as oppessed to 34 og the Ki84Ia) and at the top Alt. band which all combat occurs in AE the Ki44 is a few points lower as far as the near useless manuver rating. The Ki44IIc has less firepower but it has a better service rating (1 as oppossed to 3 of the Ki84). Service rating is a very important thing to consider, in that you could likely get more Ki44s in the air at one time than you can Ki84s.

So do any of you Japanese players have any real experience with the Ki44IIc and/or the Ki84Ia or do you all just go for the Ki84?
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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/28/2011 12:16:06 PM   
EUBanana


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Service rating 3 makes a fighter useful only for infrequent sweeps, pretty much. I find P38s totally unsuitable for CAP, they are just on the deck the entire time. And it has serious issues in sustained combat as well, one hard fought fight where the entire wing becomes damaged will mean you can't use them for a week or two.

One of the big reasons why I'm liking the t-bolt is that it has service rating 1. Makes it way way way better than a Corsair IMO.

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/28/2011 4:21:41 PM   
crsutton


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I don't think many JFBs are very happy with the Ki 44-2c. Apparently the 40mm guns never hit anything. Pretty much reflects how they worked in real life.

You are sort of stuck with a delimma (as well you should be). In game terms the tojo is the best fighter in the game from mid 42 to mid 43 and you should build plenty. However, any 2nd generation Allied fighter will tear it up. Problem is that even later versions just don't go fast enough and speed seems to be the key asset for a fighter in AE.

Then you have the Frank which is much faster but can not climb very well. In air to air combat it does much better vs Allied fighters but is still slower than most. However, you have to deal with the pitiful service rating. As EUbanana states a plane like the P38 is very useful in certain roles (sweeps and long range escort) but It would be a sad situation if all of my Allied fighters were P38s. Franks are the clear better plane but I suspect that a lot of them will die on the ground.

One last thing in favor of the Frank. As an Allied player, I won't hesitate to fly my heavy bombers into any number of tojos. But Franks, Georges, Tonys, Jacks and such can shoot down big bombers, and that is important.

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/28/2011 6:40:32 PM   
FatR

 

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Ki-44-IIc actually has 4x12.7mm armament. But its biggest asset is the ease of acceleration through the use of research facilties conversion from earlier models in the line to the latter. I fully expect to accelerate it by at least 6-7 months in my first Japanese PBEM, a feat that is hardly possible with Frank. Availability in late summer of 1943 suddenly makes it very attractive. Save for Thunderbolts, most Allied fighters still will be an equal match or inferior to it.

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/28/2011 7:15:38 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Ki-44-IIc actually has 4x12.7mm armament. But its biggest asset is the ease of acceleration through the use of research facilties conversion from earlier models in the line to the latter. I fully expect to accelerate it by at least 6-7 months in my first Japanese PBEM, a feat that is hardly possible with Frank. Availability in late summer of 1943 suddenly makes it very attractive. Save for Thunderbolts, most Allied fighters still will be an equal match or inferior to it.



Sorry, I had the wrong tojo. Does this version have armor? That is big in my opinion. I am an AFB soley but find that my hellcats, lightnings and bolts really handle any tojo very well. Biggest surprise was the hellcat but the hellcat although not faster has a good rate of climb-and armor.

However, based on my own experiences I would think you would want to have a certain number of service rating (one) fighters around at all times, even if they are inferior. So if it were me, I would work for a mix.



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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 2/28/2011 11:55:51 PM   
Dora09

 

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Thanks guys,
The Ki44IIc does have armor which I forgot to mention. The other thing is that I actually have had good results in my last with the Ki44IIb with the 40mm against both fighters and bombers. I think they have got a bad rap, you have to have good pilots though. Also, I have had very good sucess with Ki44IIa (and A6M3a)against Hellcats as long as I have above average pilots and I am fighting defensively (CAP or LR CAP).

As for the Ki44IIc with the 4x12.5s I plan to use against fighters (ki61Ic, Ki45 and J2M as bomber killers).


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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 12:20:37 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I won't hesitate to fly my heavy bombers into any number of tojos.


Does that include the Tojo IIc model? 4x 20mm cannons with decent accuracy ratings ought to (at least on paper) be bad news for Allied bombers.

ETA: Never mind. I'm wrong. Sorry, guys pretty sure I've got the wrong airframe here.


< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 3/1/2011 12:21:40 AM >


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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 12:24:45 AM   
stuman


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For what it is worth, I thought this was sort of interesting :

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_1.htm

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 6:15:15 AM   
crsutton


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Yes, interesting but does not really measure the Frank vs other aircraft. Excellent design as many Japanese fighters were but Japanese industrial limitations could not match the design. I doubt that veteran Japanese pilots would dare fly it to the edge of it's envelope as it was so prone to critical part failures that it would only serve to fufill a death wish. In combat it could not match any Allied 2nd generation for this reason as Allied pilots felt more comfortable pushing their aircraft to extremes. A very sexy beast though with a lot of potential.

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 7:41:30 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I don't think many JFBs are very happy with the Ki 44-2c. Apparently the 40mm guns never hit anything. Pretty much reflects how they worked in real life.

You are sort of stuck with a delimma (as well you should be). In game terms the tojo is the best fighter in the game from mid 42 to mid 43 and you should build plenty. However, any 2nd generation Allied fighter will tear it up. Problem is that even later versions just don't go fast enough and speed seems to be the key asset for a fighter in AE.

Then you have the Frank which is much faster but can not climb very well. In air to air combat it does much better vs Allied fighters but is still slower than most. However, you have to deal with the pitiful service rating. As EUbanana states a plane like the P38 is very useful in certain roles (sweeps and long range escort) but It would be a sad situation if all of my Allied fighters were P38s. Franks are the clear better plane but I suspect that a lot of them will die on the ground.

One last thing in favor of the Frank. As an Allied player, I won't hesitate to fly my heavy bombers into any number of tojos. But Franks, Georges, Tonys, Jacks and such can shoot down big bombers, and that is important.



the time when lots of aircraft die on the ground has passed when radar was fixed with the latest official patch. No matter which service rate, I have hardly destroyed any fighters on the ground because they all get airborne. If they fail to get airborne then it´s a "player fault" because they were at a base without radar. With radar, you have to all damage them before they are sitting on the ground.

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 4:25:28 PM   
crsutton


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This is true but a couple of rounds of combat even with 1-1 loss ratio will put a good number of broken service rating 3 fighters on the tarmac where even radar will not help them. Then you hit them with bombers. This works well if they are at a base without a rail line out. If there is a rail line then it is a waste of time.

This drives me crazy that somebody can rail damaged aircraft out of a hex immediately. (Course, I do it all the time )

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RE: Ki44IIc or Ki84 Ia? - 3/1/2011 4:41:25 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
This drives me crazy that somebody can rail damaged aircraft out of a hex immediately. (Course, I do it all the time )

Yes, I also agree that is borked, but we've got to adapt to our opponent's practices, neh?

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