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Picket line's - 2/23/2011 6:58:22 PM   
5thGuardsTankArmy


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/23/2011
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Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?
Post #: 1
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 7:27:48 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Variing.

Both sides used small trawler sized ships to get elint or visual reports against naval and air targets in the war.
We don´t have this type of ships in game in the ammount they existed, so using AKLs for such tasks is a viable tactic in my opinion.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to 5thGuardsTankArmy)
Post #: 2
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 7:35:54 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Briz Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

(in reply to 5thGuardsTankArmy)
Post #: 3
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 10:23:47 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17831
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.

_____________________________


(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 4
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 10:31:18 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?


What you're suggesting is technically spying.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to 5thGuardsTankArmy)
Post #: 5
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 11:53:21 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12786
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...



You mean like the Pueblo class AGI's? Formerly known as---you guessed it....AKL's!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 6
RE: Picket line's - 2/23/2011 11:58:39 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12786
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.



So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 12:20:12 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Briz Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...



You mean like the Pueblo class AGI's? Formerly known as---you guessed it....AKL's!


Steve, wasn't she an ELINT ship in the late 60s? Her original hull was an AKL built as a US Army light freighter in 44. Also, she was not an xAKL, though the point is pretty fine.

Looking for examples where the USN or RN took small civilian freighters and positioned them along likely enemy naval avenues of approach as early warning....

< Message edited by Wirraway_Ace -- 2/24/2011 12:24:36 AM >

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 8
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 12:25:33 AM   
Capt Hornblower


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Joined: 10/29/2010
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I agree with Wirraway and Chickenboy: seems gamey.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 9
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 12:47:23 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9770
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Absolutely not gamey. Totally sensible, and the Allies would have done the same if operating under the conditions we do in the game.

In real life, the Allies often knew where the KB was, and when they didn't they usually had a pretty good idea where it wasn't. This allowed the Allies to commit carriers and invasion TFs with relatively little risk of wholesale destruction. Also, the Japanese didn't mass six or eight carriers at a time, which also limited the extent of destruction.

In the game, the Allies have very little information to go on - much less than in real life. It would be folly to send a big carrier TF, battleships, or major invasion TF into hostile waters not knowing where enemy carriers were. To do so would have gotten you sacked in real life. You'd be a joke of a commander. So you instead you use our version of "fishing trawlers" as pickets and flankers. Perfectly sensible and I can't imagine why somebody would object.

Had the Allies in the real war operated under similar conditions, I'm sure they would have used rusty buckets to serve as a picket line. In fact, I bet they did so.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/24/2011 12:49:09 AM >

(in reply to Capt Hornblower)
Post #: 10
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:12:56 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17831
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.



So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.

_____________________________


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 11
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:43:04 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
The Western democracies did not press gang civilians into fighting on/in front of the frontline. The maritime unions and the public of voting age would have given short shift to any such compulsory press ganging.

In game, devs have clearly stated xAK or xAKL ships are civilian merchantmen. They are not the same as AK ships let alone AKA, as evidenced by their different characteristics in Amphibious TFs.

Military vessels, crewed by military personnel and thus fully subordinated to the military hierarchy, is one thing. Civilians with no appropriate training or equipment, intentionally put in harms way, is another thing entirely.

Particularly for the Allies, there are more than sufficient military assets available for picket duty.

Alfred

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 12
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:50:17 AM   
Zigurat666


Posts: 246
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline
Let them do it...its a useless tactic anyways. There's always cake behind the icing you know so just go around them.
Its another way of saying I got some action going on behind this picket,so please Mr. Tojo dont go looking...
Also it builds ship experience for your destroyer fleet running around killing the little roaches.

_____________________________

***Schulzstaffen SS***

(in reply to 5thGuardsTankArmy)
Post #: 13
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:57:35 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12786
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.



So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.



The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:58:29 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2053
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
I use low value ships in a picket line all over the map until the shipping lanes are secure, I've never viewed the tactic as gamey. The allies need to do it to secure lines. Spring '42 will  have  many pickets on my map keeping all shipping lanes secure for troop transport. As the air unbrella gets larger in combination with threats dimming in certain areas around the map certain lines will fold . I'd would however call splitting up task forces and overwhelming hexes with single ship targets as gamey but the use of pickets to guard or secure something is fair game. My pickets are spaces minimum 5 hex's. I'll also send out pickets ahead of a big landing if I think it may be carriers about.

_____________________________


”How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!” ~ Samuel Adams

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 15
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:37:57 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17831
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.



So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.



The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

Steve, knock it off. I know it's unlikely that you will ever agree with anything I say or suggest online as a potentially gamey workaround with the same 'it's unenforceable' response. I don't intend to settle the debate with you now. I'm responding to the OP's question about my opinions on the game. Full stop.

Don't agree? Fine. If I see that your behavior in the game differs from our core principle founding our game ("Don't be gamey!") then I'll call you on it within our group. Until then, I'd prefer if you not icepick me in the skull about our differences of opinion in this open forum.

Do I trust my opponent? Yeah, generally. Until I get dumped on a bunch of times or repeatedly hounded for 'proof' of illegitimacy on anything I suggest is off color.

_____________________________


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 16
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:55:48 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12786
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?

has a gamey feel to it--although the Japanese used fishing boats as pickets IRL. I feel strongly that players should have to pony-up with a naval crewed vessel vs a merchant crew to provide pickets along convoy routes or (worse yet) invasion TFs. The Japanese can convert xAKLs to PBs to do the job of picketing off the home islands.

The Allies have it harder. AMs, SCs, old DDs, KVs and AMCs seem to work versus handing a xAKL captain a high powered radio, aircraft recognition guide and lots of cans of shark repellant and telling him to provide an early warning for the USN or RN just in case the IJN shows up...

Agree. It should be limited in practice and, where used, should incorporate a 'regular' naval crewed vessel versus a rusted garbage scow with a crew of three Philipino / Indonesians and an Ecuadorian wondering what those specs are in the sky...

Also, this picket line of ships is just for early identification of incoming air attacks and the like. Using a 'picket line' of xAKs, xAKLs, etc. to charge into a waiting SCTF force in order to expend the latter's ammunition? Gamey as hell. Again, gamey is in the intent.



So because the game doesn't allow us to swap out the crew, we can't use AKLs? And further more, you just said "a picket line". A picket line is just that, one ship every so often in a line . By it's very defination a picket line's not a "so-called sponge". Ships that wallow at 10kts don't charge into anything.

I'm also assuming you've never heard of either "the hooligan navy" or use of Tuna boats as a picket line? Both were used. A form of the Tuna boats was used by the USN till 1991.

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.

The act of converting the xAKLs to the other auxiliary class is meaningful enough for me. You can assume that you would be swapping out the crew as well, if that makes it easier for you to rationalize.

I don't have an issue with a picket line / early warning line. It was done IRL to an extent, so go ahead. I just try to keep it as realistic and reasonable as possible.

Looks like we're both on the same page re: the 'ammo sponge' xAKL gambit.



The "Tuna boats " of the recent usage (80's) were part of the Coop program (Craft of opertunity program) which used tuna boats, captured drug boats, trawlers, or anything else that was cheap. The sensors were "bolt on" , generally passive sonar arrays.

The problem with the "Intent" criteria is that it is unenforceable. The other problem is that it gives inherent legitimicy to a concept that is clearly very much in debate. If I wanted to do an "ammo " sponge , I could drive a group of ships at you that you'd hit instead of say my CV's.How do you prove it's not a convoy? If it were AKL's you'd say "gamey". What if it were subs? PTs? BB's? CVE's instead of CV's? What it all comes down to is 1) do you trust your opponent? And 2) does your opponent agree with you?

Steve, knock it off. I know it's unlikely that you will ever agree with anything I say or suggest online as a potentially gamey workaround with the same 'it's unenforceable' response. I don't intend to settle the debate with you now. I'm responding to the OP's question about my opinions on the game. Full stop.

Don't agree? Fine. If I see that your behavior in the game differs from our core principle founding our game ("Don't be gamey!") then I'll call you on it within our group. Until then, I'd prefer if you not icepick me in the skull about our differences of opinion in this open forum.

Do I trust my opponent? Yeah, generally. Until I get dumped on a bunch of times or repeatedly hounded for 'proof' of illegitimacy on anything I suggest is off color.

Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't "icepicking you" as you so colorfully put it. I was disagree with you. Clearly you don't want to hear disgreements from someone that your engaged in a PBEM with. Fine. I'll stay off "your" threads.

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Post #: 17
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 6:06:13 AM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Gentlemen! Gentlemen! The President called for civility......oh..never mind.

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Post #: 18
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 6:14:58 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Since this isn't the War Room, I guess that they're allowed to fight... 

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Post #: 19
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 7:43:09 AM   
Panzerjaeger Hortlund


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Using civilian ships as pickets = very gamey
Using military ships as pickets = completely ok

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Post #: 20
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 7:44:38 AM   
d0mbo

 

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I don't really think it's gamey per se, but more a question of the game engine handling and prioritizing what TFs to attack with carrier forces. Would KB launch an attack on a lone AKL it has spotted whilst it was on its way to ambush an allied invasion somewhere?
(The same goes for the other side of course).
KB sure a shell launches in game when it has a naval strike mission set.

So it's not a question whether both sides used picket/patrol ships in the war as they did. IRL.
The game just doesn't handle this practice well so I think using small ships to attract incoming strikes on purpose isn't gamey, it's plainly abusing game mechanics in my opinion.

I intend not to play this way, but if your opponent is okay with it, that's totally fine.

My 0.02 cents.

d0mbo.


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Post #: 21
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 8:13:17 AM   
CV 2

 

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Japan can convert xAKLs to PBs. Same crews. Same ship. But its "gamey" to use them as pickets unless you convert them. Not EVEN going to comment.

Where would the allies use "picket" xAKLs? 2 places come to mind. Between India and Oz - sending single ship TFs through there is certainly not out of the question, and between the Aleutians and Hawaii - same notation.

So, to avoid being "gamey" send a "supply ship" every other day or so between the 2 and this argument is over. Both sides should be happy. Nothing "gamey" here. Move along.

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Post #: 22
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 9:11:20 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 5thGuardsTankArmy

Whats the opinions on use of Picket line's of Merchant ships?


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Variing.



See?

Although in these discussions I think there is a very divergent understanding of what actuall means "picket line"

From the involved parties the difinition ranges from a hex-by-hex stack of chapships to the occasional picket ship
patroling potential entry points of major fleets.



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Post #: 23
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:16:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Can't you convert most of your "AKL" (I presume you meant xAKL) to something of a military craft-e.g., xAKL to ACM, PB, AMc or other military auxiliary? I would envision those to have more legitimate military purpose. IIRC, the 'x' prefix designation is a tip of the hat to a more civilian / civil maritime origin. Those 'tuna boats' weren't really tuna boats, were they? More akin to EW ships, gathering ELINT. Using an xAKL would be, literally, putting a tuna boat as is out there. Wouldn't really work very well. Convert them to another auxiliary craft? Now we're talking.



This may be the source of some of the disagreement. The Allies cannot convert large numbers of small merchants to military use in the same way the Japanese can. Later on the Allies get a lot of AM and KV-type ships for ASW, but most have shorter legs than would be needed for true picket duty.

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Post #: 24
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:34:08 PM   
obvert


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As I understand it most gamers want to improve on strategies used in the actual war. As this strategy was definitely used, why should it be 'gamey' or somehow unfair to improve upon it?

It's no different than creating a more effective Japanese economy, or choosing not send to send force Z to the bottom (based on knowledge the actual decision makers did not have in ITRW) under the Netties, (and much less important to play, as well).

We're not really playing to give an accurate rendition of how things could have gone if you'd just moved things to different places. We're playing to creatively use the tools available to us to attempt to outsmart, outplay, and outshoot our opponents. This is not taking advantage of some quirk of the game mechanism, but a historical strategy seen to be effective and expanded for new and different purposes.

(As another example, coastwatchers were actually much more effective ITRW than in AE. They gave vital information to the Allies about ship distribution and movement, air strikes, and troop movements, in close to real time).

If someone wants to sacrifice ships for information, let them. It's not that big a deal.

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Post #: 25
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 1:42:51 PM   
obvert


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Also, a pretty hair-raising site on US destroyer pickets at Okinawa. When it needed to, the US did send guys out there on ships knowing it was a one way mission, but in order to savve more behind them.

http://www.apacheclips.com/boards/showthread.php?3119-WWII-%91pickets%92-paid-heavy-price-to-Kamikazes

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Post #: 26
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:09:20 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

As I understand it most gamers want to improve on strategies used in the actual war. As this strategy was definitely used, why should it be 'gamey' or somehow unfair to improve upon it?



While I agree with you on the ahistory front, I think Alfred made an excellent series of points yesterday concerning merchant crews being sent out as sacrificial lambs. The Allies did not do this, nor would they have. To me this crewing difference is the key variance with the older debate in CR's old AAR concerning sending a DD on an around-the-island recon of Borneo. That wasn't done either, but that was a military crew and the intel they could gather was probably worth the risk. It wasn't done historically either, but I think US admirals woudl have considered it if other intel-gathering not present in the game had not been available.

I think when we get into the loaded word "gamey" these threads usually turn from their course. I wouldn't sit a lone xAKL out in the middle of an invasion route for the reasons Alfreed stated. I would sit a KV, and figure out how to get her fuel if it were that important to have her there. But I also think opinions can differ on intel-gathering between players of good will. The game doesn't reflect true Allied code-breaking prowess, as CR said, nor does it fully model submarine intel gathering. Allied players may want to work with what they have. But it's a close call.


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Post #: 27
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:12:35 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Absolutely not gamey. Totally sensible, and the Allies would have done the same if operating under the conditions we do in the game.

In real life, the Allies often knew where the KB was, and when they didn't they usually had a pretty good idea where it wasn't. This allowed the Allies to commit carriers and invasion TFs with relatively little risk of wholesale destruction. Also, the Japanese didn't mass six or eight carriers at a time, which also limited the extent of destruction.

In the game, the Allies have very little information to go on - much less than in real life. It would be folly to send a big carrier TF, battleships, or major invasion TF into hostile waters not knowing where enemy carriers were. To do so would have gotten you sacked in real life. You'd be a joke of a commander. So you instead you use our version of "fishing trawlers" as pickets and flankers. Perfectly sensible and I can't imagine why somebody would object.

Had the Allies in the real war operated under similar conditions, I'm sure they would have used rusty buckets to serve as a picket line. In fact, I bet they did so.



Good point. How many times were the Allied surprised after Pearl Harbor? But, the Allies were able to pull of a few surprise attacks vs Japan. Yet, in the game with the way surface combat works and the spottyness of air recon, you are too vulnerable to surprise raids. Japan too. I try to limit it to small warships. Both sides have enough for this purpose.

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Post #: 28
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:31:10 PM   
Nikademus


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Air raid pickets such as at Okinawa were largely "in-hex" in regards to distance and were tied specifically to the amphib op at hand vs. air attack. (a small # of them would exceed a single hex in WitP terms....more so in AE with the reduction in hex size) Besides the distance, these small groups of ships (1-6 depending on the patrol area) were integrated with air CAP's present overhead to help protect them and FDO officers were assigned aboard key picket ships to help co-ord with the carriers providing overall protection to the invasion fleet. They were NOT sacrficial lambs though the mission could be highly dangerous.

They are like an Apples and Oranges comparison whenever the controversial issue of "pickets" comes up in the game. Players tend to use pickets at multi hex distances to give instantanious (and i do mean instantanious) warning of enemy assets in the area due to the nature of the combat report phase as well as draw off attack strength to eliminate them.

If two players are ok with it then have at it. I don't do it in my games as i consider it too exploitive and absolute and neither do any of my regular PBEM opponents. Again it comes down to preferences.

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Post #: 29
RE: Picket line's - 2/24/2011 2:34:35 PM   
Canoerebel


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There have been alot of good points made in this thread. Somebody (Alfred?) pointed out that we are often talking about different things when we refer to "picket ships." Here's what I mean (and don't mean):

1. I used scattered, independently operating, low-value, single-ship TFs for picket and flanker duty. For pickets, I generally use xAK and xAKL, though others may fit the bill. For flankers, I usually use DDs. Pickets serve as an early-warning detection force usually set in place to warn of an oncoming raid. Flankers are the ships that accompany or preceed my carriers into hostile waters. Sometimes, I'll use picket ships as flankers when they are already out front of an invasion TF or carrier TF that's moving into enemy country.

2. I do not send out scads of low-value ships to draw strikes from enemy carriers in hopes of lowering sortie levels. In fact, when I know or strongly suspect that enemy carriers are present, I try to get my pickets/flankers out of the way.

3. I never "flood the zone" trying to create consternation amongst enemy carriers, combat TFs, or bombardment TFs, soaking off their attacks and ammunition levels.

4. Before beginning my current game, I cleared my use of pickets/flankers with my opponent.

5. In the game, there are no merchant men on merchant ships; and no Navy men on naval ships. The best way I can approximate what the Allies were able to do in the real war is to employ ships in this fashion. It doesn't matter one whit what kind of ships I use. They are all pretty low value, so the designation doesn't mean much from a victory point standpoint. And I am absolutely certain that the Allies would have done exactly the same thing had they been in my shoes.

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Post #: 30
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