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cutting off units - is it possible?

 
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cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/23/2011 4:01:50 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 951
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Sorry - might have posted this in the wrong sub-forum, so posting it again here - This may be a very silly question (and maybe I haven't read the manual very well) but in both COTA and BFTB there are a number of scenarios where I've tried very hard to let the enemy run towards the big objectives, then flank and surround him so as to cut off his supply. So, for example, I just played Greyhound Dash, let the axis take Soy, get bottled up against Hotton, then on days 5 and 6, came round behind him and took every available road that could supply him by taking choke points on the roads. I did the same in COTA for the Centaurs scenario (3 times, in fact, picking 3 different places to halt the Italian advance before coming around the back each time). In both games I monitored supply and supply lines etc and the axis units remained in supply right through to the end. Not a hint of them being in difficulty. Am I missing something? Anyone help?
Post #: 1
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/23/2011 5:19:09 PM   
johndoesecond

 

Posts: 873
Joined: 8/3/2010
Status: offline 		I'd say that the most appropriate sub-forum would be "The war room".

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 2
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/23/2011 10:58:34 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16458
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		One thing to remember is that cutting supply is not an instantaneous thing. Most companies can survive for 24 to 48 hours on what they carry. If they have access to their Bde Base ( who is also cut off ) then they could last for maybe four or five days.

Also remember that supply lines are only refreshed when a resupply event occurs. These generally occur at 0600 and 1800 each day, though it may be only once a day in some scenarios where the scenario designer has deemed a aside to be suffering from enemy air superiority. And further, you don't have perfect intel on the enemy so I wouldn't hold too much weight in any enbemy supply lines drawn. You could however, save the game, surrender and check out the actual state in the after action review. You can then reload the original save aqnd continue. But hey, that would be cheating!

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to johndoesecond)
Post #: 3
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/24/2011 1:30:10 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 951
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Dave. That's a good idea, to save surrender and check. I started up Greyhound Dash again today to try it, but the AI didn't, of course, act as it had in the previous two games, so didn't get bottled up as planned....(still making for an interesting fight though)

Whilst you're here, as it were, is it correct that this (running out of supplies because cut off) is better modelled than in COTA, where it seems to me it really is very hard to get anything to run out? And can you confirm what has been suggested by other members - that the supply routes WILL be routed across terrain other than roads, if necessary? The latter makes a huge difference to wether it's worth trying to let the AI run into a 'sealable' pocket because it's almost impossible to cut off all routes if you have to cover all types of motorised-passable terrain (at least in the short time available in most scenarios). Thanks.'

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 4
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/24/2011 10:35:17 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16458
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Because most units are not deployed on roads, a portion of any supply line must be off road. We don't at the moment put a limit on how l;ong that portion can be. There maybe an argument for restricting it. The question then is over what distance off road do we allow. Now in some of those COTA scenarios, especially the ones on the Albanian front, there are precious few roads at all and yet both sides fought there for months at a time without any supply delivery problems. If we placed a restriction of say 2 kms, then in these scenarios just about 90% of the forces would never get supplies. So it's not that simple.

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Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 5
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/24/2011 11:36:36 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		The minimum requirement would be to restrict the gradient capability of units (and more in rough than in clear terrain) to their correct values.

Add a limitation to the highest Base also requiring a LOC to offmap supply entering via a SEP (road), and it becomes possible to sever supplies.
While the engine isn't updated, replacing road SEP with Null SEP and adding Army Base Elements to provide the 'push' supply will also produce the minimum effect needed.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 6
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/26/2011 8:14:16 AM   
loyalcitizen


Posts: 172
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		I wish cutting off units mattered. But with most scenarios clocking in at 3 days, there just isn't time to see much effect.

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 7
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 2/27/2011 12:18:19 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		I'm playing with this a bit - do you have COTA? I'm modifying the small scenario I threw together to see what options can be used to constrain 'automagic' supply to more plausible values for an army either advancing as fast as it can, or falling back in disarray (neither of which are conducive to ideal supply lines).

I've just uploaded the test scenario, demonstrating the ability to restrict opening supply of bases according to the reinforcement schedules selected, plus the ability to cut off all supply from the SEP. I'll post links and explanations once it is approved.

It isn't BFTB, as I don't yet have this, but I'll continue the discussion in this thread rather than diluting it into a new COTA one, as the principles should apply equally.

< Message edited by Lieste -- 2/27/2011 2:26:56 PM >

(in reply to loyalcitizen)
Post #: 8
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 10/18/2011 10:14:25 PM   
Genghis Khan


Posts: 34
Joined: 10/18/2011
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Howdy Folks:
It's a good question. I tried it playing the American side in "Advance to the Sure".
I either captured, or coaxed the enemy to blow up, all the bridges along the Sure River, which is impassable to all
units. Yet at the end of the game, All the German sides supply lines were still intact and it's a 7 day (+) scenario.
As hard as I try to starve out those bypassed units, they just won't go away; they must be surviving on twigs and bark,
or something.

< Message edited by Genghis Khan -- 10/18/2011 10:50:04 PM >

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 9
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 10/18/2011 11:56:26 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16458
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Gengis Khan,

One of the things we have fixed in the second patch ( which hopefully will be out next week ) is to ensure that the supply lines as shown are properly refreshed. It may be that in your example the units are in fact without a line of supply but that the supply line drawn is an old one.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Genghis Khan)
Post #: 10
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 10/19/2011 3:55:19 PM   
Genghis Khan


Posts: 34
Joined: 10/18/2011
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks Arjuna:
I look forward to the new patch level.
It's not that I expect this information while the scenario is in progress, because realistically how could one
expect to know an enemy units supply disposition during the heat of battle, but after the AAR is issued, it is nice
to examine how well one's strategy and tactics worked. So I hope they don't mess with the realism of the game, because
I really treasure that aspect of this system.
Now, I'm new to Command Ops, so I'm still learning the ropes so to speak, but is there a way to determine a unit's
ability to receive orders from their superiors (after the AAR, of course). I also like to go after the "Command and
Control" of an opponent whenever an good opportunity presents itself, but I'm not certain how to gauge the
effectiveness of these tactics, or if I can gauge them at all?
And, while I'm off topic, do you think Panther Games will ever use this system (Command Ops) to do a "Squad Leader"
style of game? I'm an old "Squad Leader" fan and I think it would be an absolutely excellent platform for modelling
squad level tactics. Oh, if they did, I'd buy it in a heart beat.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 11
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 10/20/2011 1:13:44 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16458
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Re C2. Check out the staff load under the Commander's tab. If this exceeds its staff capacity then the force is overloaded and it will take significantly longer for that HQ to process orders.

Re Squad Level. We continually get requests to apply our engine to different levels. On the war-historical bews group the other day I was asked if we could up the scale to Bn sized units and covert he east front at that level. The military want us to drop scale down to Pl level for their purposes. Whatever level any change involves a lot of work and hence a lot of investment. To be frank, there is simply not the return on investment in this niche of niche markets to make it viable. So for now we are sticking with the Coy level.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Genghis Khan)
Post #: 12
RE: cutting off units - is it possible? - 10/20/2011 2:59:25 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4675
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		I remember heading off into the blue with 7 days rations/water on the Land Rover plus whatever people where carrying on their backs.
Once we got bogged and were out for 10 days, 2 meals a day instead of 3.   Drank horrible Artesian water.

Food and water can be made to last a bit longer.

However ammo/fuel are limiting factors, once used they cant be replenished so its vital to control usage and in game should make a unit incapable of movement or defending itself.

PS. I vote for Company level, in more battles on more fronts!!

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 13
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