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Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:05:04 PM   
Blind Sniper


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Hi all,

I'm playing the Operation Blue scenario with the last beta patch update.
It seems that is far more difficult to win a combat as German therefore I'm paying much more attention at combat resolution.

Looking my opponent attacks I found this resolution combat screen, although the combat modified value was the same for both sides I lost the combat with odds 2:1 for the Russian.
Someone can explain me why?





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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:15:01 PM   
Blind Sniper


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Moreover I noticed that the enemy defensive value is not correct if you are looking the pop up.

I moved an armored division close to the target, the pop up said me 48th Rifle division (1/1) det 10.
Then I attacked it with an Infantry Division and I lost the combat!
Now the pop up said me 48th Rifle division (1/4) det 10, what I'm doing wrong?

Also is normal that only 1 combat factor is moltiplied to 31?




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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:15:13 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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If the russian attack gets odds of 1:1 or better they get an automatic bonus of +1 to the odds.

So in the attack above the russian got 1:1 and then the bonus of +1 to give a final adjusted odds of 2:1 you retreat.

This is not free, it is bought by considerably higher casualty levels on the Soviet attack.  You can see it there where his losses are 830 men and your losses after retreat losses are figured in are lower (your in-combat losses were probably only half the total losses you suffered).  Also both sides in this attack got final odds adjustments due to leadership and so on...you got the double whammy in this case...CV adjustment triggering a +1 odds shift to change a battle that you should of held to one you retreated from.  Bad luck.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:24:01 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

If the russian attack gets odds of 1:1 or better they get an automatic bonus of +1 to the odds.

So in the attack above the russian got 1:1 and then the bonus of +1 to give a final adjusted odds of 2:1 you retreat.


Thanks, I though it was already calculated. Now is clear how to read it.
Anyhow this bonus is really huge, I'm wondering how the German can stop the Russian in the late war...


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:27:25 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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As for your second one...there are a lot of leader rolls in combat and they can wildly adjust the final CV value.  The russian's gain more often from this due to their units being lower in CV..though 1 to 31 is really, really hard to understand.

I can't fathom any of the values I'm seeing though.  The 126th has a CV of 24..ok that is halved from 48...  Is it in poor supply?  Out of ammo?  The damage you inflicted: 60 men is very very light.  It is like you didn't actually shoot at them, I would have expected a lot more fire on your part.  Your losses are also pathetic at 160 men, but his CV is so low I can't fathom it as the 48th Rifle looks in good shape otherwise (60% TOE should be 18-22 CV).  It must have problems of its own.

You need one of the developers to explain the 2nd example you posted I'm basically amazed by it.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:36:15 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

I can't fathom any of the values I'm seeing though.  The 126th has a CV of 24..ok that is halved from 48...  Is it in poor supply?  Out of ammo?  The damage you inflicted: 60 men is very very light.


I noticed several time different enemy defending value during my PBEM game (before the attack I read 1 than it was 4,5 or 6) therefore I run the big campaign and I made some combats test.
GC '41, first turn, it was the first combat for the Axis unit in the game.



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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:45:50 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

quote:

If the russian attack gets odds of 1:1 or better they get an automatic bonus of +1 to the odds.

So in the attack above the russian got 1:1 and then the bonus of +1 to give a final adjusted odds of 2:1 you retreat.


Thanks, I though it was already calculated. Now is clear how to read it.
Anyhow this bonus is really huge, I'm wondering how the German can stop the Russian in the late war...



It is paid for by significantly higher combat losses so the Soviet needs to mount attacks with much higher ratio of attackers to defenders or else overwhelming artillery else he won't be winning too many Pyrrhic victories before having to rest up. Basically the only thing that sort of equalizes the losses are if you win the retreat losses. If you don't win the losses on a failed soviet attack are very high. It is an advantage that comes at a steep cost.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:48:07 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

quote:

I can't fathom any of the values I'm seeing though.  The 126th has a CV of 24..ok that is halved from 48...  Is it in poor supply?  Out of ammo?  The damage you inflicted: 60 men is very very light.


I noticed several time different enemy defending value during my PBEM game (before the attack I read 1 than it was 4,5 or 6) therefore I run the big campaign and I made some combats test.
GC '41, first turn, it was the first combat for the Axis unit in the game.




The counter value of 1 translates into a combat screen CV of any value between 1 and 15 ish. So 1 on the counter is pretty much just saying "typical early war russian unit"...but if it is an average unit or a unit on its last legs you can't see from the counter value.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:49:59 PM   
BigAnorak


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I can't tell from the screen shot, but are the axis attacking across a river? And was the hex recce'd?

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 2:55:06 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

I can't tell from the screen shot, but are the axis attacking across a river? And was the hex recce'd?


Yes and yes, I put an armored division close to the enemy, the pop up said me det 10.
Anyhow if I get a malus crossing the river is fine, but why the Russian combat value is so high?



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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:00:06 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

It is paid for by significantly higher combat losses so the Soviet needs to mount attacks with much higher ratio of attackers to defenders or else overwhelming artillery else he won't be winning too many Pyrrhic victories before having to rest up. Basically the only thing that sort of equalizes the losses are if you win the retreat losses. If you don't win the losses on a failed soviet attack are very high. It is an advantage that comes at a steep cost.


Uhm...I see the point but what about the replacement ratio?

Moreover the losses was pretty even, everything with odds close to 1:1 is a Russian victory I think.
I'm just thinking about that, I don't have data therefore I can be totally wrong


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:06:14 PM   
BigAnorak


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quote:

but why the Russian combat value is so high?


It will need someone wiser than me to answer that. We recently had a fix for base CV's in swamps and rough being mis-represented, I don't remember light woods as having the same problem.



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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:08:26 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

The counter value of 1 translates into a combat screen CV of any value between 1 and 15 ish. So 1 on the counter is pretty much just saying "typical early war russian unit"...but if it is an average unit or a unit on its last legs you can't see from the counter value.


Ouch...but this range is not too large?
I mean if I read 10 and then is 12 is ok, but if I read 1 and then is 5 or 6 I have a problem because attacking with a 6-8 value in an hasty attack this totally change the outcome.


< Message edited by Blind Sniper -- 2/22/2011 3:10:00 PM >


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:10:24 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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The losses in this case are pretty even because they won.  But frankly that was a largely tank based attack and he lost 24 of his 160 tanks in addition to that.  Pure tank assaults have the advantage that they reduce "men" losses.  He still lost a goodly part of his infantry in that attack...830 men is around 80 squads destroyed or 40 squads destroyed and 80 squads damaged when he only had 160 squads per Corps I think.  That hurt his infantry.

A typical infantry attack will have much higher losses.  Much higher.  Upward of 20% of the total attacking strength (which is lot more of the front line infantry) can be killed in even a successful attack.

Also if you are attacking across a river in that second one then everything makes more sense.  River crossings are hard to force.  That is why your fire was so pathetic...don't do hasty attacks across a river in the future.  Bad idea all told.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:15:15 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

quote:

The counter value of 1 translates into a combat screen CV of any value between 1 and 15 ish. So 1 on the counter is pretty much just saying "typical early war russian unit"...but if it is an average unit or a unit on its last legs you can't see from the counter value.


Ouch...but this range is not too large?
I mean if I read 10 and then is 12 is ok, but if I read 1 and then is 5 or 6 I have a problem because attacking with a 6-8 value in an hasty attack this totally change the outcome.



You misunderstand me. The CV value printed on the counter is 1/10 (rounded) of the units strength that you will see in the combat window. So your units with CV of 7 have a combat window CV of 65-75 but the Soviet unit with a Counter CV of 1 can be anywhere between 1 and 15 in combat window CV value.

So you could end up in a fight with a starting odds of anything between 70:1 to 4:1.

The 1 on an early war soviet counter is pretty much meaningless since the range is so great, but a 2 on a single soviet division means it is above average and much more dangerous.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:19:24 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:


Also if you are attacking across a river in that second one then everything makes more sense.  River crossings are hard to force.  That is why your fire was so pathetic...don't do hasty attacks across a river in the future.  Bad idea all told.


Ok, that's fine, but why my modified value is 28 and the Russian is 31?
If I get a lot of malus why my value is increased to 28? It was halved and then doubled again for leader rolls?
But especially why the Russsian is 31?

Morevover three artillery battalions involved in the battle and only 60 enemy losses?

Anyhow thanks to both that are trying to explain me how the game works


< Message edited by Blind Sniper -- 2/22/2011 3:20:09 PM >


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:26:48 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

You misunderstand me. The CV value printed on the counter is 1/10 (rounded) of the units strength that you will see in the combat window. So your units with CV of 7 have a combat window CV of 65-75 but the Soviet unit with a Counter CV of 1 can be anywhere between 1 and 15 in combat window CV value.

So you could end up in a fight with a starting odds of anything between 70:1 to 4:1.

The 1 on an early war soviet counter is pretty much meaningless since the range is so great, but a 2 on a single soviet division means it is above average and much more dangerous.


Ok now I understand, but now my question pop up again.
Looking the above example:
Why the recon said me 1 before the combat (that means 1-15 ok) and after the combat it said me 4 (that's means 35-45)? The detection it was 10...


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:39:40 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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Ok my first advice is to turn the message level up to 4 on any "interesting" attack you make then you can watch the fight in some detail and see what is going on.

There are a lot of leader rolls, if you make the leader rolls your CV is increased.  How much it can be increased is a good question, I've seen up to around 4x but in the example above it is boosted from 1 to 31 which is extreme.  Your CV starts at 48, is halved for a hasty attack to 24 which is the value at the start of the combat.  Now since you are doing a hasty attack most of your artillery doesn't fire as often as it should...so your 3 battalions of guns were pretty much wasted in this attack.  Next since you are "disrupted" by the river crossing your only real fire power (your infantry squads) is significantly reduced due to the fact that it is a hasty attack (probably this reduces the number of them that fire, reduces their accuracy or some combination of the two) and then due to the fact that this is a river crossing a large number will be disrupted so your actual fire power drops to virtually nothing.  Your final CV is boosted slightly to 27 so apparently you made some rolls.

The enemy barely exists to fight...your losses of 160 men are largely from artillery fire and some final fire but that is very light.  His casualties come from a bit of artillery, mortar and rifle fire.

At the end 60 men is not enough to trigger a retreat so you loose.  In this case you need to inflict around 800 men losses (10%) to get a retreat.  Though this is not sure and certain but seems to be what happens most of the time I see a retreat.

The reason you see his CV increased to 31 from 1...frankly I haven't got the foggiest clue how that can have happened. 

CV has nothing to do with combat.  Combat is entirely between devices (tanks, squads, guns, etc) and the CV is just a mathematical value to help you rate your units.  It isn't like in a board game and the unit has an attack value of 3 and the other has a defense value of 1 so the odds are 3:1 and you roll on the 3:1 line in the chart...the CV is only a calculated value and nothing more.  What happens in the fight depends on the state of the formations devices not on the CV value of the counters.

How a fight is resolved...if it is an win or loss...here my experience is that CV doesn't play a roll but that contradicts what is written in the manual, and quite frankly I don't understand why I see what I see.  What I see is that the way a retreat is determined to happen or not isn't as written in the manual.  The only thing that final adjusted odds seems to matter for is determining if a shatter or rout occurs.  But this is speculative on my part.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:42:25 PM   
Paul McNeely

 

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I can't tell you why the counter went from 1=1 before to 1=4 after combat.  You need to pester the developers for an answer to that one.  I also don't know why the combat window CV jumped from 1 to 31...that is too extreme I'd think.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 3:44:30 PM   
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This is a really informative thread.  Thanks McNeely, especially!

I asked a question in another thread in the War Room, and I want to repeat it here:

If CV is a meaningless indicator because combat is decided by the outcome of device-on-device firing, then what are CV modifiers doing to that device combat algorithm?

If a fort 'shifts' CV, how does that impact the device resolution?
If a river shifts CV, how does that impact it?

My guess is that it affects things like range, who shoots first, and maybe some kind of accuracy enhancement, but who knows, and how do we determine?

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/22/2011 3:52:06 PM >

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 4:06:01 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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quote:

I can't tell you why the counter went from 1=1 before to 1=4 after combat.

I can't either but I can say I have occasionally seen it, I think it is a 'visual bug' that I have been unable to reproduce enough to warrant reporting. I have occasionally seen a unit listed as 1=1 for example, then later even with nothing happening (maybe I moved a unit adjacent?) note that it might now be 1=4.

The problem is I notice this usually as an afterthought such as. "Okay this is a 1=1 infantry unit, let me find some low morale Inf unit close to get the easy morale upgrade.. Hrrrmmm yeah lets attach this Motorized flak company.. oh dang I forgot I needed to move this mountain division over here.. okay that's done.. where is that infantry division.. okay.. let me move him into place.. okay everything looks good, is he close enough to his HQ to get arty support.. is he going to do anything else really or should I deliberate attack since I won't need the MP's.. wait the target is a 1=4 now wtf?!"

And its rare enough I haven't been able to collect enough bits to try and piece together a pattern

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/22/2011 4:15:05 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

I can't tell you why the counter went from 1=1 before to 1=4 after combat.  You need to pester the developers for an answer to that one.  I also don't know why the combat window CV jumped from 1 to 31...that is too extreme I'd think.


Unfortunately I don't have the save, I load again the CG to do other test. I will pay more attention in the next PBEM turn.

quote:

I can't either but I can say I have occasionally seen it, I think it is a 'visual bug' that I have been unable to reproduce enough to warrant reporting.


I think so too, I ran the same game 7-8 times (CG '41) and this damned unit is always 1-4, no more 1-1.

quote:


And its rare enough I haven't been able to collect enough bits to try and piece together a pattern


Not so rare, in my Multiplayer game it happened several times. I have to save the game before hit end turn.


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 5:48:31 PM   
Blind Sniper


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Sorry guys but I still have some problem with my game.

Someone can explain me how is calculated the combat resolution?
Several times I noticed that the modified combat value is about 4x also in clear terrain.

The first two are just an example of several combat resolutions in the last turn that I played.
The last one is obviously a bug that I'm going to report in the Tech Support.





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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 6:20:42 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

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The common factor I see in the above 3 combats is that the attackers hardly did any damage to the defenders, especially in the last battle. I'm really starting to think that in a situation where you happen to hardly do any damage, the modified combat val will get inflated quite a bit. After all, it doesn't make sense for 4.5k guys to retreat after losing only 11.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 6:48:06 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

I'm really starting to think that in a situation where you happen to hardly do any damage, the modified combat val will get inflated quite a bit. After all, it doesn't make sense for 4.5k guys to retreat after losing only 11.


I think Paul is right saying that unit does not retreat if the losses are < 10%, that's fine and I agree with you.
What I'm trying to understand how is possible get a 4x, I have to check more closely because I never see a similar bonus when I attack.



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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 7:31:27 PM   
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I would be having a close look at the ammo levels of the attackers - you could be throwing rocks.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 8:09:55 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

I would be having a close look at the ammo levels of the attackers - you could be throwing rocks.


All my units are within HQ range and the railhead is rather close. My Panzer divisions have 40 MP therefore I think I'm in good shape.
Look the first result, the base combat value 56 is grown up to 70, anyhow my ammo level does count for the Russian value?

My concern is the 4x Russian value, but I repeat I'm aking here because surely I'm missing something and I want to know what I'm missing.

Next turn I will check all the values before launch an attack and I will report here


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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 8:15:08 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

My concern is the 4x Russian value


It is a bit more complex. First you don't see real static CV, second static CV and modified CV are calculated in a totally different way and there is no linear relation between them. You can derive your linear multiplier, but this is not what's going when those values are calculated. In other words, saying I see x4 is not entirely correct.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 8:16:04 PM   
BigAnorak


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I don't get involved in CV discussions - it can cause me to stop playing the game

The low casualty figures must have a cause other than just an incredible series of bad die rolls.

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RE: Combat Resolution - 2/23/2011 8:38:31 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:

It is a bit more complex.


I'm pretty sure about that, therefore I'm asking

quote:

In other words, saying I see x4 is not entirely correct.


Right, what I can check before launch an attack? Because in this game a lot of my attacks have been stopped in this way.

I have to admit that is the first time that I get all these results, for whatever reason I'm really behind my objectives.

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