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RE: Merchant Ships

 
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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/20/2011 9:02:55 PM   
Buck Beach

 

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I am going to try to upload a couple of my files showing my research. They are my wps150 showing the add-ons starting at 16143. I have included my wpc150 only for reference to sizes of the new classes I create, These new classes are for those ships that were acquired by Japan prior to the War or captured. Other that these new classes are a figment of my immagition based on general information provided by JWE as to size comparisons.

The ship data as to Name, location of construction (after start of war), build date, and sinking are from my main source and vetted in many cases with other sources. Sizes and classes were based on ship LPP and approximated to a LOA comparison. There are many ships in the data where they are still being researched and of course errors from my incompetence.

For those interested you may want to view my new Allied ships starting I believe at line 15000. There are a considerable number of Esso tankers that were 2 or three trip ponies and a slew of new APs from an old published source. There is also a whole bunch smaller ships that I have been working on.

Remember everyone that this info was for me and a sure wouldn't warrent how correct it is. However, it sure can be used as a starting point for any further research you may pursue.

If you have any specific questions you may PM or email me.

Buck

Oh BTW I am not finished with my searches.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/20/2011 9:21:25 PM   
Brady


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I always woundered just how many of the Allied ships in the Pacific were actualy used on the run to the USSR and theirfore not realy in our war???

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 1:35:47 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I always woundered just how many of the Allied ships in the Pacific were actualy used on the run to the USSR and theirfore not realy in our war???


It's been a while, but I though I remember reading that most of the ships on that run were Soviet flagged. I will try to look it up. BUt it's been a long day so I make no promises

Ok, see this ( short but sweet ) :

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/L/e/Lend-Lease.htm

" The North Pacific route accounted for twice as much Lend-Lease tonnage as any other route. It consisted of two parts. The sea route extended from U.S. West Coast ports, such as Seattle, through Alaskan ports to Vladivostok. Ships on the western part of this route were under Soviet flag and were treated as neutral vessels by Japan, which was anxious not to disturb its non-aggression pact with Russia. The air bridge extended from Great Falls through Edmonton, Whitehorse, Galena, and Nome to Uel'en, Markovo, Iakutsk, Kiernsk, and Krasnoiarsk to Novosibirsk. Over 8000 aircraft flew this route during the latter part of the war. Aircraft were picked up at Nome by Russian pilots, were marked with Soviet colors, and were left unmolested by the Japanese on their flight to Siberia. "



< Message edited by stuman -- 2/21/2011 1:40:06 AM >


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 2:47:56 AM   
Brady


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quote:

Lend-Lease reached Russia through four routes, two of which were within the scope of the Pacific War. The Persian route ran through the western Indian Ocean and through Iran (Persia) into south Russia. It would have been susceptible to attack had the Japanese seized Madagascar or even Colombo, and did suffer some losses from far-ranging German and Japanese submarines


It was my understanding that these ships were not Rusian flaged, and that the ships on the Alaska run were not Russian entirely.

That Russian ships picked up material in Alaska, the vast bulk of which was sent their from the US west coast on US ships, the Alcan did come on line untill later and then did not move as much as the seaboarn rute.

Sometime ago I spot checked some ships and while I was looking for "other" things I noticed that many were on runs to Alaska for most of the war.

Howeaver I dont know how many actualy serviced this route.



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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 3:30:50 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

Lend-Lease reached Russia through four routes, two of which were within the scope of the Pacific War. The Persian route ran through the western Indian Ocean and through Iran (Persia) into south Russia. It would have been susceptible to attack had the Japanese seized Madagascar or even Colombo, and did suffer some losses from far-ranging German and Japanese submarines


It was my understanding that these ships were not Rusian flaged, and that the ships on the Alaska run were not Russian entirely.

That Russian ships picked up material in Alaska, the vast bulk of which was sent their from the US west coast on US ships, the Alcan did come on line untill later and then did not move as much as the seaboarn rute.

Sometime ago I spot checked some ships and while I was looking for "other" things I noticed that many were on runs to Alaska for most of the war.

Howeaver I dont know how many actualy serviced this route.




Right, per the above quote the majority of Lend Lease to Russia went via the N. Pacific. The ships that docked in Russian ports were almost all Russian flagged ( if memory serves there may have been some other neutral ships involved). Sometimes Russian ships went to the West Coast itself, other times they picked up stuff in Alaska. It's been a while since I looked at all of this.

A bit more :

" War-time Minister of the Soviet Navy, Admiral Nikolai Kuznetsov, wrote in his memoirs: “Transport vessels loaded at the ports on the west coast of the United States arrived in Vladivostok, Nikolayevsk-on-Amur and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, in the Soviet Far East. As a rule, the time at sea ranged from 18 to 20 days — plus the time it took to deliver the cargoes by rail, first, in the United States and then on Soviet territory. Although the Soviet Union strictly observed neutrality, the Japanese interfered with the passage of ships in the Pacific and sometimes sank our vessels…” "



< Message edited by stuman -- 2/21/2011 3:41:09 AM >


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 4:05:12 AM   
Brady


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I beelave it was in Thunder Below that I recalled reading of the USS Barb setting up on a convoy, only to stop at the last second as it was a Soviet Convoy while she was in the Sea of Otousk (sp?). Its posable that the ships sunk were by US sub's I suspect in part.

When I was doing some stuff for WiTE I came across an article that sugested to me a lot of the material was carried on US flaged ships to Alaska, I nead to try and find that.

The ships to Indian Ports though were not Rusian Flaged ships afik.



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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 4:14:28 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beelave it was in Thunder Below that I recalled reading of the USS Barb setting up on a convoy, only to stop at the last second as it was a Soviet Convoy while she was in the Sea of Otousk (sp?). Its posable that the ships sunk were by US sub's I suspect in part.

When I was doing some stuff for WiTE I came across an article that sugested to me a lot of the material was carried on US flaged ships to Alaska, I nead to try and find that.

The ships to Indian Ports though were not Rusian Flaged ships afik.




You have made me start looking at some of my old sources, I will now be up all night !

I am sure you are right about the Indian ports routes. I have one quote from a Russian source that states that all ships docking in Russian Pacific ports were Russian flagged,
Russian crewed. And I seem to remember that most were direct Russian to West Coast convoys. But I also think you are right in that other times there were US ships unloading in Alaska, and Russian ships then picking the stuff up.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 4:55:52 AM   
vettim89


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To take this is a different direction, perhaps our problem lies in capacity not numbers. In WiTP my one PBEM that went into 1945 was a BigB 1.4 game. My discussions with Brian (who is stalking these Forums again these days) revealed that one of the things he did in the mod was to alter capacilites. I don't think this was 100% a work around to make the mod work. I think he felt that ships capacities were overstated.

You have so many ways of looking at tonnage/capacity. The standard seems to be GRT with its each ton = 100 cubic feet of volume. Then there is NRT which is probably a better measure but rarely available. GT is probably of little use.

Wiki Definitiions

Perhaps the problem is no more complex than the formula for converting GRT/NRT to AE based cargo capacity is just off. I obviously don't have the methodology that was used, but it really does make sense. Would love to hear from JWE or other people in the know on this matter

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 1:53:52 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89
To take this is a different direction, perhaps our problem lies in capacity not numbers. In WiTP my one PBEM that went into 1945 was a BigB 1.4 game. My discussions with Brian (who is stalking these Forums again these days) revealed that one of the things he did in the mod was to alter capacilites. I don't think this was 100% a work around to make the mod work. I think he felt that ships capacities were overstated.

You have so many ways of looking at tonnage/capacity. The standard seems to be GRT with its each ton = 100 cubic feet of volume. Then there is NRT which is probably a better measure but rarely available. GT is probably of little use.

Wiki Definitiions

Perhaps the problem is no more complex than the formula for converting GRT/NRT to AE based cargo capacity is just off. I obviously don't have the methodology that was used, but it really does make sense. Would love to hear from JWE or other people in the know on this matter

Things are very different in AE. GRT/NRT don’t mean a thing. If you look around you will occasionally see a “Bale Cubic” or “Grain Cubic” for a ship. That is its actual, physical, volumetric cargo capacity – how many cubic feet of boxes (bales) can you put in the holds. Grain is the same, but includes filling in all the little nooks and crannies between frames, around supports etc.. Either of these are going to be way different from Register Tons. So .. the numbers in AE have nothing whatever to do with GRT/NRT, so there’s no conversion factor because we didn’t care anything about GRT/NRT.

Since everything in the game is in “Tons” of weight, so is the ship cargo capacity. You can fit 444,000 cu feet of toilet paper in a C2-B, but 444,000 cu feet of steel would sink it. What we tried to do with cargo capacity is use “Cargo Deadweight – Design”. Sometimes, we could get the values directly, sometimes we had to calculate it. Design (not maximum) Deadweight minus fuel, stores, water, people, ‘stuff’, comes pretty close. Average industry breakbulk cargo densities factored against Bale Cubic also comes pretty close.

Totals are also lower than they could be, because values are Design values, not Maximum values. Some ships could “overload” by up to 20 weight % (others only by 7 weight %). It was rather extreme allowing some classes to overload while others couldn’t, so everybody uses Design: one big, happy, consistent family, across the board.


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 6:42:31 PM   
vettim89


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JWE,

I did not mean to say you guys were mistaken in assessing the RL capacity on the merchant shipping. Looking back at my OP I can see how you might think that was what I meant.

What I meant was what the game calls a supply point we consider to be a ton, but a supply point may actually represent more than a ton of goods. So even though you guys did a bang up job figureing out the tonnage of all the cargo carrying vessels in the game, we load points not tons. So if the points to tons ratio is off, the capacities are off.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/21/2011 11:53:00 PM   
treespider


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For Brady's benefit...

Register of Ships received by Soviet Union as per Lend-Lease Agreement

(can't believe I took time to look for this...)

On average during the "peak" period (the final 26 months of the war) of Soviet Far East Shipments an average of 36 ships per month visited Soviet Far East ports.

I'm not certain, but my guess is, these ships are not included in the Allied total as Brady would like to suggest. On to other conspiracy theories...




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< Message edited by treespider -- 2/22/2011 12:03:25 AM >


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 12:39:11 AM   
Brady


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US ships were chartered under the Soviet flag:

http://vn.vladnews.ru/Arch/2005/ISS462/News/upd13_1.HTM




American aid to the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1945 amounted to 18 million tons of materiel at an overall cost of $10 billion ($120 billion modern) and 49 percent of it went through Vladivostok, the major Pacific port of Far Eastern Russia, Tuyll reported.

Vladivostok was a valuable port for this program because Russia’s northern ports of Arkhangelsk and Murmansk were attacked by Nazi Germany and many of the lend-lease shipments were lost.

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag. When lend-lease shipments arrived at Vladivostok they were stored both in port terminals and in warehouses on Portovaya and Verkhne-Portovaya streets, then they were conveyed by train along the Trans-Siberian Railroad to points west. During the war the port of Vladivostok handled four times more cargo than Murmansk and Far Eastern railroad traffic was four times greater than the rest of nation.

(from a post by Peter H, axis history forum)



< Message edited by Brady -- 2/22/2011 1:51:36 AM >


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 4:16:31 AM   
stuman


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More stuff:

In Print
Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II,
by Albert Weeks



" The ships proceeded in convoy, the Japanese were informed by the
Soviet government of the size, makeup and route of the convoy

> Was it all Russian shipping?
A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms. Four of the
46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the 46 ships were loaded by
Dodge (presumably with trucks). One ship was loaded by Westinghouse
(presumably with communications gear).

They carried:
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney "

There seems to be conflicting info. Some sources state that the crews operating the shipping docking in Soviet ports were always Russian, which makes sense to me. But others imply maybe some were crewed by Americans. I will keep poking around.

Not sure any of this affects our game. But interesting anyway.

You guys are slowly turning me into a ship fanatic
I am starting to accumulate a nice stack of books, articles, web sites.......

< Message edited by stuman -- 2/22/2011 4:29:56 AM >


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 4:20:28 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

For Brady's benefit...

Register of Ships received by Soviet Union as per Lend-Lease Agreement

(can't believe I took time to look for this...)

On average during the "peak" period (the final 26 months of the war) of Soviet Far East Shipments an average of 36 ships per month visited Soviet Far East ports.

I'm not certain, but my guess is, these ships are not included in the Allied total as Brady would like to suggest. On to other conspiracy theories...




quote:

< Message edited by treespider -- 2/22/2011 6:03:25 AM >


First of all thx, I love this kind of stuff.

Second, since all of the ships used in the N. Pacific run to the USSR were Russian flagged, they shouldn't be in our game. I see no Russian ships floating around

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Post #: 104
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 4:22:33 AM   
vettim89


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Stuman I think there are convoys that arrive at Vlad ala Cape Town periodically that represent this. WIthout a code change, it would be impossible to stop the USSR flagged ships from being attacked

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Post #: 105
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 4:29:05 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Stuman I think there are convoys that arrive at Vlad ala Cape Town periodically that represent this. WIthout a code change, it would be impossible to stop the USSR flagged ships from being attacked


I did not know that.

Actually I was talking literally. That I don't think there are any " free floating " Russian ships in our game. Not that there should be.

It is interesting to think that while the the Pacific War was in full roar, hundreds of ships were plowing back and forth between the West Coast and Russia.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 5:03:45 AM   
Buck Beach

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

More stuff:

In Print
Russia's Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II,
by Albert Weeks



" The ships proceeded in convoy, the Japanese were informed by the
Soviet government of the size, makeup and route of the convoy

> Was it all Russian shipping?
A typical convoy left Seattle for Vladivostok in Jan 1944.
It was composed of 46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships); built by
McCormack Ship Yards that were Soviet flagged and Soviet crewed.

Six of the 46 ships were loaded with ammunitions and small arms. Four of the
46 ships were loaded with foodstuffs. Two of the 46 ships were loaded by
Dodge (presumably with trucks). One ship was loaded by Westinghouse
(presumably with communications gear).

They carried:
20,000 tons of steel provided by U.S. Steel.
3,000 truck chassis, by Ford (the Soviets also assembled U.S. trucks from
parts).
3,000 truck differentials from Thornton Tandem Co.
2,000 tractors by Allis Chalmers Co. (agricultural and military use)
1,500 automotive batteries from the Price Battery Corp.
1,000 aircraft provided by the North American Aviation Co.
612 airplanes from the Douglas Aircraft Co.
600 trucks from Mack.
500 Allison aircraft engines.
500 half-tracks from Minneapolis Moline Co.
400 airplanes from Bell Aircraft
400 electric motors from Wagner Electric Co.
400 truck chassis by GM (see Ford above)
310 tons of ball bearings from the Fafnir Company.
200 aircraft provided by the U.S. Navy
200 aircraft engines by Aeromarine
100 tractor-trailer units by GM (trucks)
70 aircraft engines by Pratt & Whitney "

There seems to be conflicting info. Some sources state that the crews operating the shipping docking in Soviet ports were always Russian, which makes sense to me. But others imply maybe some were crewed by Americans. I will keep poking around.

Not sure any of this affects our game. But interesting anyway.

You guys are slowly turning me into a ship fanatic
I am starting to accumulate a nice stack of books, articles, web sites.......


I have been buying like crazy and reading nothing.

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Post #: 107
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:55:42 AM   
Brady


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quote:

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag





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Post #: 108
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 7:35:18 AM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag







It seems it was Russian flagged ships, crewed by Russians:


"As a matter of fact the Pacific shipping was carried out only by vessels under Soviet flag with Soviet crews. As it was said in the Report of the People's Commissariat of External Trade: "EXCLUSIVELY SOVIET STEAMERS" (External Policy Archives, fund 'Comrade V.M. Molotov's Secretariat', list 4, file 104, page 96). There were no convoys. The vessels sailed across the ocean one by one without close escort, although a lot of historians and officials tell about Pacific convoys in their articles and documents. "



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Post #: 109
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 7:48:35 AM   
Brady


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It would seam our sources differ in this, though they agree their American ships. From a practile stand point it would seam  likely the crews were American as finding and traing enough Soviet crews to man 170 ships might of not been expedient.

I will see if I can someting to back up the claim they were American crews.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 12:39:05 PM   
treespider


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To what end? Point of the matter is the ships are not in the game..and that's the way it should be...unlike your implication that the US has ships in game that were on the Soviet Far East milk runs.

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Post #: 111
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 3:47:31 PM   
Nikademus


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Here's a shot in the dark.


Been thinking this for a long time. So much effort has gone into crunching the numbers based on certain absolutes....mainly that the supply point represents a "ton" of supply of some measure....and hence we get all the calculations for shipping and air transport etc etc not to mention burning of said supply at bases and for industry.

However......a supply point is itself...an abstract. It is simotaniously everything a base needs save for "Fuel" for ships. Its a bullet....an arty shell....a bedbunk....and medical supplies...oh and SPAM!

Since supply levels and it's ready availability and ease of transport have been oft commented on.....what about the idea of taking the base calc and then reducing it on a % to account for this abstraction? I did something similar years back in my mod for air transport....reducing the "tonnage" figure that they could carry by over 50% to account for the fact that they could really only transport one type of supply at a time in any sig numbers.

A similar thing could be done for shipping and even supply usage if the % level were kept consistant based on a number to account for supply point abstract-ness.


Just a thought. It would be a massive undertaking but i always felt that it was the abstraction of supply itself, not the accuracy of any particular carrier that was the root problem.

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Post #: 112
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 5:30:44 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 5:34:59 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2254
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.


Oh fine, make it that simple

Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?


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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 5:38:07 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25305
Joined: 5/27/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Oh fine, make it that simple

Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?




Only Gary Grigsby knows. I would 'speculate' it was done that way for simplicities sake. The game is enough of a micromanagement nightmare as it is. (sometimes called...."Quartermaster in the Pacific")

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:00:02 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.


Maybe avoid using the "word" and instead substitute the symbol for delta or sigma?

Alfred

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Post #: 116
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:16:27 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14657
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Here's a shot in the dark.

Yes. There's two (actually 7) things happening.

There's the idea that some form of resources and oil need to be transported to Japan for processing into useable components, and then there's the other 5, which is distributing the resource and oil inputs to the end-users as supply and fuel, and providing input to the factories.

It is practically impossible to differentiate between a "point" or a "ton", or anything like that, or even determine what a "point" or a "ton" actually means. By using a "word", it allows all the whackos to ping on the "word". But the "idea" is the game premise: this is several steps up the conceptual ladder. The game works at the top couple rungs of the conceptual ladder; the "words" are just chrome.


Maybe avoid using the "word" and instead substitute the symbol for delta or sigma?

Alfred


Like "The artist formerly known as Prince"? -> "The concept formerly known as Supply."






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Post #: 117
RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:20:26 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45
Just wondering out loud, why didn't they seperate fuel and av gas as an end product?

Because they should be transported on ships, and ships have small flags, and their pentacles aren't big enough to keep the evil spirits away

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:29:54 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Only Gary Grigsby knows. I would 'speculate' it was done that way for simplicities sake. The game is enough of a micromanagement nightmare as it is. (sometimes called...."Quartermaster in the Pacific")

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GG, and the Word was GG. It was in the beginning with GG. All things came into being through GG, and apart from GG nothing came into being that has come into being. In GG was life, and the life was the Light of gamers. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not comprehend it

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RE: Merchant Ships - 2/22/2011 6:33:27 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3321
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
Back to the merchant issue directly, it occured to me that there is a bit of phantom Japanese merchant shipping in the game that is used but unseen. Because HI is pooled and not physically shipped, those HI points that are generated outside of Japan are for the most part used in Japan without ever having to be loaded onto a ship. In RL, a portion of the merchant fleet wa tasked to moving the industrial output associated with those HI points to Japan

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