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Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets)

 
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Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/16/2011 8:26:50 AM   
redmarkus4


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Placeholder to be taken over by the nominated OKH commander.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/20/2011 7:26:43 AM   
redmarkus4


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The Axis moves for Turn 1 have been completed and the turn sent to STAVKA. I am collecting Axis screenshots and will start the AAR in a short time.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 11:13:31 AM   
redmarkus4


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Turn 1 has been received back from the Soviet side and we are playing through turn 2 now.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 11:25:36 AM   
redmarkus4


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Some thoughts on the team format so far.

PHILOSOPHY

Approaching a team game at such an early point after the initial product release requires everyone involved to focus on the learning process. There's no point getting stressed because Minsk hasn't fallen on schedule - this is an opportunity for 360 learning (both up and down the chain of command) and team building.

If the process works, we might end up with a bunch of teams that can one day play a tournament against each other.

CHECKLISTS

A checklist of actions for each level of command would be very useful. It is easy to miss a task or to think that the other command level will be executing it for you.

I will give some thought to this and produce a draft.

ORDERS

There are two possible approaches to issuing orders:

1. Issue very detailed orders telling your team exactly which units to move where and at what pace/time, or;

2. Describe your overall intent and only list key objectives, allowing the players to interpret these orders as they see fit.

I regard the second approach as the better one. It takes longer to mature and will lead to confusion and even lost battles at the outset, but it's the only way to build up team skills and to ensure that everyone is having fun playing the game.

TURN SEQUENCE

After just one turn we found that sending the file back to OKH after every phase adds too much delay. We are now passing the turn around in the order OKH>AGN>AGC>AGS>OKH and then on to STAVKA. OKH is copied each time so that comments and suggestions can be made.

TEAM SIZE/STRUCTURE

Next time around I will probably go for 3 players per side instead of 4, with the OKH/STAVKA player also commanding one of the combat forces. The OKH role is really rather boring without a proper combat command as well, so I have been getting my rocks off by using security units to attack Soviet strays!

More to come as we gain experience...

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/23/2011 11:27:37 AM >


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 12:13:13 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

There are two possible approaches to issuing orders:

1. Issue very detailed orders telling your team exactly which units to move where and at what pace/time, or;

2. Describe your overall intent and only list key objectives, allowing the players to interpret these orders as they see fit.


I think in reality there's only one possible approach and that's number two.Who is going to put up with being told precisely what units to place where?I think the vast majority of people are going to say, "If you want those units there, then you move them there, I've got better things to do".

quote:


Next time around I will probably go for 3 players per side instead of 4, with the OKH/STAVKA player also commanding one of the combat forces.

I think this is sensible.I don't think the CinC's job would be boring in a purpose designed multiplayer team game.It just needs the right type of person to do it.Anyone who can't resist pushing counters around should command an army group.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 1:16:22 PM   
Harovan


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Of course the second approach is the right one. It's like at work, I can put up with being told what to do, but I absolutely hate to be told how to do it. So just give objectives and leave a bit room for creativity.

Concerning the high command role, I don't think this job has to be boring. After all it's the role of the strategist taking care of the greater good and seeing the greater picture. You decide what every subordinate has to do and you give or take away forces.

I'd even suggest to strip the army groups of a couple of corps for reserves at your disposal. Perhaps build up a strong 2nd army and a reserve mot. corps (perhaps the XXXX) and do NOT add it to any army group but leave it to yourself and move it, where you think the focus of battle should be in the upcoming turns. And then either allow the army group commander to play it, or even play it yourself.

When I get a bit more experience (perhaps after this game) I could think of taking this role myself.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 1:20:53 PM   
Harovan


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Happy Defender of the Fatherland Day to our Soviet counterparts, by the way. It was called Soviet Army and Navy Day earlier.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 3:42:43 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harovan

Of course the second approach is the right one. It's like at work, I can put up with being told what to do, but I absolutely hate to be told how to do it. So just give objectives and leave a bit room for creativity.

Concerning the high command role, I don't think this job has to be boring. After all it's the role of the strategist taking care of the greater good and seeing the greater picture. You decide what every subordinate has to do and you give or take away forces.

I'd even suggest to strip the army groups of a couple of corps for reserves at your disposal. Perhaps build up a strong 2nd army and a reserve mot. corps (perhaps the XXXX) and do NOT add it to any army group but leave it to yourself and move it, where you think the focus of battle should be in the upcoming turns. And then either allow the army group commander to play it, or even play it yourself.

When I get a bit more experience (perhaps after this game) I could think of taking this role myself.




Slightly opposing views in the two posts above, but both interesting. The idea of forming a strategic reserve and employing it as CinC is a novel one. I'll give it some thought, although it might be difficult to 'squeeze' a reserve army into line between the Army Groups without causing problems...

Now, Harovan, I would like you to move 1st Infantry Div to hex 55x67 and then move 2nd Div to 55x68 before moving your 3rd Div to 55x69. Any questions about my 'intent'? LOL

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 3:49:04 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I don't think the CinC's job would be boring in a purpose designed multiplayer team game.It just needs the right type of person to do it.Anyone who can't resist pushing counters around should command an army group.



You're probably right! And I should really be quiet on this point as I forgot to do a really important CinC activity this turn and had to delegate it!!!

However, I do think that STAVKA has a lot more to think about than OKH does in the early turns. When we get a 'Europa' version of the game, with the UBoat war and a better air war, plus other theatres, and (I hope) some basic strategic production/resource utilization decisions to be made, playing as OKH will really become quite challenging.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 4:16:32 PM   
Harovan


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It doesn't necessarily have to be the 2nd army, let's say 3 inf corps and 1 armored without army HQ will do too.

Concerning the "forgotten" recon, IMO the CinC can do some to see the greater picture and to determine where reinforcements may be in order, but if I plan a breakthrough as army group commander, I'd better do it myself and a bit more dense and deeper in the direction I'm going to move.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/23/2011 4:50:37 PM   
timmyab

 

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I think stratigic reserves should be controlled by the high command but I don't think they should control units once placed in the front line otherwise instead of two joins between commands you've now got three or four, making for more confusion and opportunities for error.If the OKH or STAVKA commander wants to command a front of their own as well, then that's fine, although most commanders will inevitably become preoccupied with their own front at the expense of the greater good.
I think it's important that when people take on the job of CinC that they understand that the job doesn't involve pushing counters.If strategy and logistics bore you then you should take an army group command or play single player.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 2/23/2011 4:54:16 PM >

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/24/2011 7:16:01 PM   
redmarkus4


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I agree with Harovan regarding the recon and Timmyab regarding command of reserve armies, etc.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/24/2011 8:36:57 PM   
cookie monster


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When will we see the screenshots of turn one?

I'm sure this AAR is highly followed.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/25/2011 3:33:53 PM   
redmarkus4


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We aim to please!

TURN 1.

Our team was able to create some good pockets on the first turn, with AGS managing to really surprise the enemy and pocket a large part of their forces south of the Pripyat. We destroyed 5,233 SU A/C on turn one, for the loss of 219 AX A/C.

Although Riga was not taken and the advance towards Minsk could have progressed further, the results in the south offset those small setbacks, so we remain confident that we will be in Moscow by September!




Attachment (1)

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 2:52:12 PM   
redmarkus4


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TURN 2

The pockets created during turn 1 have been rapidly eliminated. Riga has been taken and the advance by AGN has reached Pskov.

Minsk still stands, but recon reveals only weak resistance east of the city, so further advances and the fall of Minsk are anticipated for turn 3.

AGS has created the potential for a major new pocket SE of Lvov, created by 1st Pz Grp driving SE and 11th Army coming up from the Romanian border. This would mean the partial destruction of SW Front in only 3-4 turns, severely impacting the enemy's plans for the defense of both Kiev and Smolensk.




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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 6:42:43 PM   
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That's a very different looking first turn by AGS. Interesting.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 6:48:29 PM   
redmarkus4


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Yes, I am now re-naming Harovan "von Manstein". This was all based on his independent planning - all I do is outline the general direction of operations and allocate resources...

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 7:41:12 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:


That's a very different looking first turn by AGS. Interesting.


Yes if he can pocket the 6th and 12th Army in the next 2 turns.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 8:10:10 PM   
Encircled


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Cracking by Harovan, absolutely cracking


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 8:55:46 PM   
Harovan


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Don't exaggerate, I was just doing the best I could with the forces I was given. Not having the XXIV corps, a dash down to Romania is out of question. I hate this opening anyway, IMO it's the pinnacle of gameyness. And just going for Tarnopol pocketing nothing I didn't like either. So when I was confident, that I can take Tarnopol with 3 panzer divisions, sending the fourth a different way (through 17th) wasn't hard to decide. The only thing scary was to break down all four divisions, but I thought in turn 1 there is little danger for them.

I have no idea what I can or can not pocket in the next turns, turn comes and we'll see. I'm also not trying to compete with an opening, which was off the table for me.



< Message edited by Harovan -- 2/26/2011 8:58:27 PM >

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 9:33:06 PM   
redmarkus4


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I don't think it's gamey at all. Rushing to the Romanian border to 'unfreeze' those shivering troops - that would be gamey IMO ;)

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 9:53:22 PM   
Harovan


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That's what I was talking about. ;)

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/26/2011 10:12:18 PM   
redmarkus4


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Ah, right :)

I thought you meant "this opening", meaning the one you actually played... I was confused!

Lucky I didn't agree with you and say, yes, your opening was actually gamey!

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/27/2011 2:19:13 PM   
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That progress is really, really impressive. Especially in the South. I think playing in a team must take WITE to a whole new level as far as immersion goes. Must be time consuming though.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/27/2011 5:22:41 PM   
redmarkus4


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Actually, it takes much less time for each of the players as they are only focused on their section of the game. Obviously, the time between game turns is longer (about 3-4 days per turn so far) but we do have other things to do during that time, so we are not sitting around waiting ;)

The immersion is great and the challenge of having to agree strategy and communicate objectives, plus the need to coordinate the moves of three Army Groups and to allocate scarce support is very realistic. It's actually a great exercise in managing people (eight strangers from different cultures!) and social media comms.

What we can't show in the AAR yet are the planning maps and discussions we are sharing within the Axis team. Once the campaign is more advanced I will upload some of the early ones as examples.

A final point is that each of my generals has different strengths and weaknesses. I am slowly starting to allocate tasks such as 'please plan for operation X and share your operational concept with me'. They can then propose phase lines, support, Atts and Dets, etc. which adds a whole layer of realism.

I think that this is how the game is truly meant to be played...



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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/27/2011 6:46:59 PM   
Wikingus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Actually, it takes much less time for each of the players as they are only focused on their section of the game. Obviously, the time between game turns is longer (about 3-4 days per turn so far) but we do have other things to do during that time, so we are not sitting around waiting ;)

The immersion is great and the challenge of having to agree strategy and communicate objectives, plus the need to coordinate the moves of three Army Groups and to allocate scarce support is very realistic. It's actually a great exercise in managing people (eight strangers from different cultures!) and social media comms.

What we can't show in the AAR yet are the planning maps and discussions we are sharing within the Axis team. Once the campaign is more advanced I will upload some of the early ones as examples.

A final point is that each of my generals has different strengths and weaknesses. I am slowly starting to allocate tasks such as 'please plan for operation X and share your operational concept with me'. They can then propose phase lines, support, Atts and Dets, etc. which adds a whole layer of realism.

I think that this is how the game is truly meant to be played...




Sounds like an armchair general's wet dream. I think I'll apply the next time something like this is set up.


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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 2/27/2011 7:28:21 PM   
Encircled


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It certainly does add a load more realism to the game

Very tempted to apply myself next time as well

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 3/1/2011 4:59:39 PM   
redmarkus4


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Turn is 3 now in progress. I will post a screenshot when the Axis phase is finished.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 3/4/2011 5:57:06 AM   
redmarkus4


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Axis turn 3 is almost completed. I will send the turn to STAVKA either Friday night or Saturday.

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RE: Za Rodinu Axis AAR (no Soviets) - 3/5/2011 11:58:50 AM   
redmarkus4


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Turn sent to STAVKA this morning

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