Swamp Test

[PeeDeeAitch]

For those of you German players, like me, who have woken up in the middle of the night screaming "SWAMPS!" after nightmares of huge stacks getting turned aside by Soviet defenders, I have a report.

I sent two corps (reinforced) of the 16th Army into the swamp/river region south of Lake Ilmen (don't ask me why I was there, I got lost...) and I have the following observations:

Newly arrived Soviet divisions, who once could hold out were being hasty-attacked out of position - I knew they were new divisions because such attacks led to routs.

Older divisions could be driven out by single (or in the case of the level 2 for) double german divisions doing deliberate assaults.

All in all, this bodes well for the attacks on Leningrad in PBEM. Swamps are still tougher than open ground, but no longer are they nightmares, at least at first blush.

[timmyab]

Just out of interest, has anyone ever noticed that unit's defensive CV's in swamp hexes only show a doubling of CV (like light woods), when they should be trebled (like heavy woods).It's never bothered me until now because they've always behaved more like permanent level 5 forts.Is this just cosmetic or are swamps now too easy for attackers?

[Tarhunnas]

I am a little concerned that swamps are too easy now. They are almost no problem at all, like light woods hardly noticeable to an attacker.

As for the defense of Leningrad, I think the right hook seems much too easy for the Germans already before the swamp change. After all, there was a reason the Germans didn't send their motorized troops into that terrain! I have a feeling the terrain in that area is too "nice". Not at all as many heavy woods as I would have expected in the area east of Leningrad. I admit that I haven't been to that particular region of Russia, though I have been to the areas east of Moscow, and I do live in Sweden, which has similar climate and vegetation. We are talking miles upon miles of forest here, with few and bad roads. You simply don't drive large motorized military units through such terrain just like that. And I did my military service as a tank commander, so I feel I know a little about the subject of tanks and terrain.

[ool]

I played a challenging level GC with the latest version 4 patch.In the first 14 turns the massive German panzer stacks just cruised through the swamps as if they were on the autobahn. Swamps should be a no go zone for anybody's mech forces. At the very least the movement penalties should be very severe. Swamps should have to be cleaned out by infantry, not massed stacks of tanks.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ool

I played a challenging level GC with the latest version 4 patch.In the first 14 turns the massive German panzer stacks just cruised through the swamps as if they were on the autobahn.

Oh dear, back to the drawing board.[:D]
Did you get any feel for whether swamps are defending at +1 or +2?
Perhaps someone with the new patch could do an experiment to compare the defensive value of swamps and heavy woods to see if they give similar results.If swamps really are defending at +1 then they're now possibly worse defensive terrain than light woods because of the slower entrenching times.Wouldn't want to defend Leningrad against that.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Thus the tenor of my initial post - nightmares have turned into...well, something better and almost simple. I am not sure if the defensive values is 2 or not, but when manned with fresh soviet divisions the defense faded rather fast.

[Encircled]

Hmmm, sounds like the movement and combat penalties for mech need to be looked at (again!)

Its probably right at the moment though for infantry (since the patch anyway)

[stormbringer3]

It looks like swamps are more and more a major issue. I have seen swamps in Florida, Gerogia and Louisiana, and perhaps Russian swamps are different, but I don't see a way for mechanized units to go through that kind of terrain. I lean toward prohibiting mechanized units from swamp hexes except on rail hexes or as an above post suggested, making the movement for mechanized units into swamps much more costly in MPs than we have now.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3
I lean toward prohibiting mechanized units from swamp hexes except on rail hexes or as an above post suggested, making the movement for mechanized units into swamps much more costly in MPs than we have now.

I wouldn't ban them altogether, just up the movement cost and seriously increase the risk of damaged AFV's.That combined with the halving of armoured CV should keep the armour away.

[ool]

Lets put it this way they ran over my divisions as if they were speed bumps, very small speed bumps. Obviously in winter swamps are passable to any mech as long as the weather rating 5+. In other periods mech should be restricted to the rr/roads laid out in the Prypet marshes. Other areas where there is only a swamp hex and no RR/road they should be prohibited. It seems to me the pendulum re: swamp difficulty has swung too far now to making them irrelevant, just some colourful hexes on the map. There is no real deterrent to going into them at all as far as I saw.

[Josh]

 
The early stage of the german-russian war: three russian T-34/76-tanks lost their way and got stuck in a swamp area near the town of Tolosjin.
 
Got to love armour and swamps: http://wn.com/t-34_russian_tank_recovered_from_the_swamp

[ool]

Well imagine maxed out stacks of German armour cruising around the swamps and the Pripet marshes in my challenging game. A tad unrealistic to say the least! Characteristics of the Marshes? http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... et-Marshes

Game developers note the first line statement about the marshes in particular! "vast waterlogged region" So how can you allow maxed out stacks of German armour to just roll through this region when not on RR/road hexes? Further how can armour units, unless it is winter, exert a zone of control in this area. Exception of course being mech infantry which can leave their mech on dry land and go into the marshes to pursue the enemy.

[gids]

so finnaly i can move through pripjet marshes with my panzers :p ,didnt try the new patch yet but im pretty sure they will adjust it to a level where most people will avoid marshes with mech stuff again ,the only problem i recall was the insane defence value of it,they prob were to enthusiastic ;still have to give a big high 5 to the people making the patch and are so on top of this game,1 of the best services i have seen for my money so far,keep it up :p
ps...dont forget to make new games

[veji1]

I suppose as others have suggested that the key should be in movement modifiers for mech units, rather than massive defense values... So the defense values have been toned down, just tone up the movement penalties...

[bloomstombs2]

Issues are movement of mechs in swamps,

But also , how can infantry survive in near freezing(but not yet frozen) marsh water as we see in that above picture.

[Tarhunnas]

I would like to dispel the idea that swamps suddenly becom dance floors in winter. There are often a lot of trees in swampy areas, and the ground is frequently uneven. Further, swamps don't froze solid like lakes (i suppose that is because the muck and ooze or some biological process or other), instead they become quite treacherous, as it is hard to see what is solid ground and not when it's covered with snow. I have driven a tank into what looked like a piece of woods and suddenly SLOSH!, we were in a one metre deep square hole in the ice, took hours to tow the thing out!

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ool
how can you allow maxed out stacks of German armour to just roll through this region when not on RR/road hexes? Further how can armour units, unless it is winter, exert a zone of control in this area. Exception of course being mech infantry which can leave their mech on dry land and go into the marshes to pursue the enemy.

Don't forget that armoured divisions have a lot of rifle squads as well as plenty of artillery.
I'm a big fan of the idea of treating rail lines as abstract superior roads.Admittidly even the best roads in Russia at the time were fairly awful, but it's also true to say that some were more awful than others.Not only in marshes either.It would give players more to think about, and also would create abstract bridges which is something I feel the game should have.If you gave players the option to blow and repair these bridging points as well you'd have one happy bunny here that's for sure.

[stormbringer3]

I think that the swamps need to be reworked. I think that there should be some meaningful attrition and/or morale drops for units sitting in a swamp hex for any meaningful length of time. I just don't think you can station any sizable units in swamps without a meaningful hit to their effectiveness. I hope that some of the posters that are affiliated with WitE and who are always so helpful will provide some comments in this thread. 

[ool]

Excellent point. Apart from insects there is a issue with water supply, rations etc. Especially if it is a hex with no RR/Road through it.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

I think that the swamps need to be reworked. I think that there should be some meaningful attrition and/or morale drops for units sitting in a swamp hex for any meaningful length of time. I just don't think you can station any sizable units in swamps without a meaningful hit to their effectiveness.

Realistically, that might be true, but would it add to the game? It would only lead to players shifting units in and out of swamps all along the front, which would only add a lot of hassle for no real gain. And I am not so sure about the attrition effect anyway. I think more severe combat and movement penalties to motorized units would be what's needed.

Edited spelling error.