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Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR

 
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Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 12:06:52 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
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I have finished my first PBEM GC. As Axis I managed to win game before blizzard, even before mud. My opponent offered surrender after turn 13 but I and others persuaded him to continue. For details about this and situation at Turn 13 see thread Does Soviets have a chance here?

After 4 more turns (at very beginning of Turn 18) he decided to surrender again, this time without any doubts. I can't blame him becouse, after losses he suffered in meantime, I'm also convinced that Soviets will not be able to recover anymore. Blizzard or not, this is probably lost cause for Red Army.

I'm not sure how proficient Oleg is as Soviet player in WitE comparing to others (no doubt he has huge grognard expirience in wargaming). He won GC against 2ndACR as Soviet (see AAR). Interesting is that there he also commented our game. He said:

"My current fear is that if the German player plays 'almost perfect insanely aggressive game' (APIAG) Soviet role is reduced to mere watcher, not player. APIAG is required to WIN, To achieve historic results something close to APIAG, but not as perfect, is required. I still have to perfect my own APIAG to be able to point the finger and blame the design. IMO in gaming terms there is nothing more frustrating than playing Soviets vs APIAG Axis player (I faced two) - simply nothing sensible to do."

So here is the end result of my APIAG:

Axis VP: 247 (Probably it would 260 before blizzard)

Soviet Losses
Men - 3.7 mil. (probably over 4 mil. after destroying already encircled units)
Guns - 49.106
AFV - 16.289
Airp. - 12.210

43 Armored Div.
21 Motorized Div.
226 Inf. Div.
22 Cav. Div.
10 Mtn Inf. Div.
12 Airborne Brig.
etc.

All in all, more then 300 hundred divisions! Plus 40 more isolated and doomed on turn 18.


Axis Losses
Men - 441K
Guns - 5.046
AFV - 1.853
Airp. - 1517

Other info: Random weather, Full FOW, played with 1.03 beta 2 untill turn 16.

Map situation with comments:






Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 12:36:27 PM   
alfonso

 

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Emir,
Wow!

Congratulations!

What do you think are the most important issues that differentiate your style from that of other Axis players who claimed that it was impossible to win against a decent human opponent?

Maybe this time Oleg did not play decently, as he did against 2ndACR?

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 2
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 12:56:57 PM   
raizer

 

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well played!  THE GERMANS ARE TOO STRONG!!!! WE NEED A NEW PATCH!

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 3
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 2:27:52 PM   
Pford

 

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quote:

Other info: Random weather, Full FOW, played with 1.03 beta 2 until turn 16.


Parameter #1 was most likely decisive. The Blizzard?

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 4
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 2:31:45 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1281
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From: Laramie, Wyoming
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They never got to blizzard.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Pford)
Post #: 5
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 2:36:52 PM   
cookie monster


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From: Birmingham,England
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Hi Emir

Thanks for sharing.

Did you make extensive use of the HQ BUILDUP for your panzers?

What defencive line strategy did you face, Linear/checkerboard etc?

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 6
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 2:48:39 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso
Congratulations!

What do you think are the most important issues that differentiate your style from that of other Axis players who claimed that it was impossible to win against a decent human opponent?

Maybe this time Oleg did not play decently, as he did against 2ndACR?


I played three Soviet PBEMs in parallel, they started pretty similar but soon diverged. In fact I'd say Emir started the worst of all three Axis opponents. That soon led to me probably placing bets on him failing, plus the fact I never played vs him before, and he's "my man" from Bosnia, we speak the same language in mails (I am from Dalmatia ie Croatia), and I thought I'd deal with this guy easily.

Well that was a mistake, and he steam rolled over my units.

ACR I stopped very easily, and how incredibly different those two games turned out to be, you can see in ACRs AAR and my final comments here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2699221

My third PBEM is vs Jamiam, that one is currently on hold, but it's pretty disastrous for Soviets as well.

So based on my observations, if Germans play near-perfect insanely aggressive game, Soviets are reduced to mere watchers. I barely ever "played" anything vs James and Emir, I just watched. If Emir and Jamiam can do this to me, I see no reason to nerf the game in pro-Axis direction. I think everyone who think Sovs are overpowered should play guys like Jamiam and Emir.

If you think I am simply a bad player, that's OK too I can only offer my game vs ACR as the proof that I do know a thing or two about playing WITE.

Comments?

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 7
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 2:51:57 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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To get the complete understanding of my two games vs ACR and Emir you should read couple of my final comments in ACR's thread, starting from this one:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2723104


< Message edited by Oleg Mastruko -- 2/13/2011 2:52:13 PM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 8
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 3:15:43 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
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From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Hi Emir

Thanks for sharing.

Did you make extensive use of the HQ BUILDUP for your panzers?

What defencive line strategy did you face, Linear/checkerboard etc?


I used HQ BUILD UP exactly two times. First one was during turn 12 around Leningrad. I was preparing to cut off Leningrad and at that point it was obvious where I was going to strike on next turn. As I didn't know what Oleg could put in my way, I used HQ build up just to be sure that I get enough mobility to links with Fins. Latter, I realized that I would probably link anyway, as only rail line which lead to Leningrad from East was cut off previously and he was unable to pump reinforcement from east. After that thrust Oleg surrender first time. The second occasion was around Moscow. It is worth to mention that we mostly played with patch 1.03 beta 2, so x2 swamp and heavy wood bonus was present. That caused me to losse at least one turn to encircle Leningrad.

Regarding his defence I would say it is probably combination of both, maybe more linear around key cities and strategic points.


(in reply to cookie monster)
Post #: 9
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 3:20:31 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
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From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

In fact I'd say Emir started the worst of all three Axis opponents.


Hmmm. What made you think of that? I am pretty sure that I had very good opening. Unfortunately I don't have screenshots to post.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 10
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 3:32:27 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

In fact I'd say Emir started the worst of all three Axis opponents.


Hmmm. What made you think of that? I am pretty sure that I had very good opening. Unfortunately I don't have screenshots to post.


It was just a feeling, based on nuances after first two turns.... it was obviously wrong.

You and Jamiam continued to do encirclements, while ACRs encirclements, which were fine in the opening turns, started to falter.

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 11
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 4:21:55 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Maybe this time Oleg did not play decently, as he did against 2ndACR?



If you think I am simply a bad player, that's OK too

Comments?



No, no, evidently I don't think you are a bad player. Mine was a rethoric question...

My point is that the Axis side is the more difficult to play in the 1941 campaign, and just on day 2 after release we had already complains of Axis players claiming the game was horribly unbalanced (even before Blizzards). My subjective feeling was then that when experienced Axis players begin to realize their potential, the general picture might be somewhat altered. And now it seems as if that subjective feeling begins to materialize.

A couple of bugs have been corrected which aparently favoured the Soviet. Had the developers included in the last patch just 50% of the design proposals to "balance" the game (more frozen Soviet units, Stalin directives, Soviet random movements, reduction of troop strategic movements, collapse if Moscow falls...), it could very well be that players like Emir Agic or Jamian had to offer some morale or AP bonus to their Soviet sparrings to entertain themselves when playing WITE.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 12
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 4:39:42 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4923
Joined: 10/21/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso
My point is that the Axis side is the more difficult to play in the 1941 campaign, and just on day 2 after release we had already complains of Axis players claiming the game was horribly unbalanced (even before Blizzards). My subjective feeling was then that when experienced Axis players begin to realize their potential, the general picture might be somewhat altered. And now it seems as if that subjective feeling begins to materialize.


I absolutely agree, that's what I've been saying all along (well, at least since I started playing Emir and Jamiam).

It's good people can compare my play vs ACR, ie use me as benchmark. Very small nuances made the difference between this disaster vs Emir and Soviet dominance vs ACR. Let me rephrase that - very small nuances in GERMAN play made the difference.

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 13
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 4:53:21 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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Oleg,

By the way, you have reports or screenshot od the situation at, let's say, turns 4, 6, 8?
When did Smolensk fall? Pskov? Novgorod? Kiev?

I have seen a lot of AARs where Axis players go behind the schedules proposed in the "Road to" scenarios, which I think are useful

Turn 3: Minsk, Vitebsk, Mogilev (from road to Minsk)

Turn 10: besides those above, Smolensk, Rzhev, Velikiye Luki, and probably Gomel, Bryansk, Vyazma (from road to Smolensk).

etc

Which were the milestones in your games against Jamian and Emir?

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 14
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 4:58:14 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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I don't have screenshots, and I am afraid Emir doesn't have them either. We played server based game, thus - no local saves to make screenshots a posteriori.

I would like to use this opportunity to AGAIN ask/suggest some improvements be made in the Slitherine multiplayer, that would enable us to better manage our games, make local saves after the turn is sent (for backup, analysing, not playing) etc etc. There were some threads with some good suggestions about MP improvements.


(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 15
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:14:03 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2133
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

well played!  THE GERMANS ARE TOO STRONG!!!! WE NEED A NEW PATCH!





(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 16
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:15:48 PM   
Emir Agic


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I have screenshots from turn 08, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17. Here is my planning map at the end of turn 08. Numbers besides lines of advance represent my expectation of where my forces will be 1, 2 and 3 turns ahead from t08). Also yellow marks - HI, VEH, RES, ARM - are positions of key resources and production centers.




Blue circles are positions of armor and motorized units.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 2/13/2011 11:38:35 PM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 17
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:16:17 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I don't have screenshots, and I am afraid Emir doesn't have them either. We played server based game, thus - no local saves to make screenshots a posteriori.

I would like to use this opportunity to AGAIN ask/suggest some improvements be made in the Slitherine multiplayer, that would enable us to better manage our games, make local saves after the turn is sent (for backup, analysing, not playing) etc etc. There were some threads with some good suggestions about MP improvements.




Then, what was your feeling during the game?. A juggernaut coming directly towards you, or plenty of annoying Panzer Divisions flying as mosquitoes around you?

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 18
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:18:12 PM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

I have sreenshots from turn 08, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17. Here is my planning map at the end of turn 08. Numbers besides lines of advance represent my expectation of where my forces will be 1, 2 and 3 turns in advance). Also yellow marks - HI, VEH, RES, ARM - are positions of key resources and production centers.




Would you be kind enough to post some of them?

EDIT: Ah, I see it now

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 19
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:18:41 PM   
Emir Agic


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Here you may see situation at the end of turn 13:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2718496

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 20
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 5:25:04 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso
Then, what was your feeling during the game?. A juggernaut coming directly towards you, or plenty of annoying Panzer Divisions flying as mosquitoes around you?


My feeling, same as vs Jamiam, was that I am not even "playing" this game. I was merely shovelling handful of 1=1 ants every turn, and watching the OTHER guy actually play.

I said that couple times already - if Axis player does almost-perfect insanely aggressive game there is nothing Sov player can do but watch. Putting half a dozen 1=1 units here and there I would not even call playing or "coherent strategy".

I invented an acronym for such Axis play: APIAG (almost perfect insanely aggressive game). It is my current goal to learn to play Axis APIAG, because being on the receiving end of that is just frustrating.

ACR, on the other hand, fell well short of APIAG, and the result - my Soviets holding Odessa and Smolensk firmly by Spring 42, south front in tatters... something that would prompt less stubborn Axis players to whine accross the forums here

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 21
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 7:10:11 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

Most of new WitE players, when they start playing, will play Axis and will play 1941-1945... that's a fact...

Since playing Axis is, let's be honest, harder because they have to attack and don't lose momentum most of those players will think that WitE is too hard on Germans.

And this is exactly what we had in public WitE forum - lots of calls for making Axis life easier, easing of 1st Winter rules etc. ...


At the same time certain players rather quickly grasped the concept of Axis playing and they become quite proficient!

Also at the same time, and as far as I saw, this is still not the case with Soviet side... I still haven't seen very proficient Soviet players based from publicly available AARs...


We, ALPHA / BETA played WitE much longer than you guys and, thus, have more experience. If there is to be some kind of "general" feel among us I would say that most believe that there is balance and that there is plenty of room for both sides to play the WitE!

The WitE allows both sides to develop their own strategies and tactics and both sides have possibility for action <-> reaction!



Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 22
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/13/2011 7:12:50 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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I agree completely. I think some of the calls, from winter to the "need" to make the German game easier is more based on lack of experience than complete understanding of the game.  Part of the problem is that many of us are want to be Guderians or Mansteins, and we somehow cannot get past that the problems might be of our own making rather than flaws elsewhere.

This mini AAR gives a good feeling of what can be done.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 23
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/23/2011 5:19:36 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Amazing achievement Emir! Just wondering about one thing. I have only played the Soviet side in a couple of PBEM , and in my experience there is often a possibility to isolate the Panzer spearheads of an agressive German and clutter them up with 1=1s. That will not destroy them, I will almost never have the forces to actually attack them and force a retreat, but it will hit their supply, and bog down the German offensive. How does the insanely aggressive German avoid this?

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 24
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/23/2011 7:41:38 PM   
Emir Agic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Amazing achievement Emir! Just wondering about one thing. I have only played the Soviet side in a couple of PBEM , and in my experience there is often a possibility to isolate the Panzer spearheads of an agressive German and clutter them up with 1=1s. That will not destroy them, I will almost never have the forces to actually attack them and force a retreat, but it will hit their supply, and bog down the German offensive. How does the insanely aggressive German avoid this?


There is couple of things which German player should have in mind.

First, don't go too forward with your armor spearheads. Usually, I use them in pincer movement to finish encirclement. After that, they are positioned in forward center with infantry covering flanks. If opponent try to use tactic that you described, it take risk of concentrating units on one spot, which could help me to easy do next encirclement on following turn(s). My opponent hadn't use your tactic probably because after my breakthroughs he had more important things in mind (such as forming new defensive line). Also, often pincer movement hadn't left him a lot of ready units to sacrifice in attacking one Pz Division.

Second, German player shouldn't left huge gaps among mobile units. I try to keep them as close as possible with preferably 1 hex among them. Or even without any gaps if opponent has large reserve force to counterattack (see situation around Moscow on attached screenshot).

Third, after completing encirclement with mobile units in forward center, I usally left them there for turn or two in order to rest them and faster replenish of fuel and supplies. Regarding this I wouldn't care much if he try to clutter them with 1=1s. My infantry is close anyway so if he like to risk encirclement so let it be.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 25
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/23/2011 7:44:25 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Another example - usual situation after pincer maneuver




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 26
RE: Emir (Axis) vs Oleg (Soviet) - Very short AAR - 2/23/2011 9:43:55 PM   
Tarhunnas


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I see, thanks for the explanation. In my next PBEM I will play the Germans and try to be insanely agressive. I always seem to end up playing the Soviets.. dunno why? I am agressive by nature (when playing wargames) !

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 27
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