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Why are allied crews so terrible at night?

 
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Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 8:49:43 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 621
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Title says it all. Why are allied surface TF crews so damn terrible at night compared with their Japanese counterparts? I suppose it has something to do with the doctrines of both sides, but I was just wondering what the upper echelon decision was like to willfully NOT train the ship crews in night warfare...

No Jim, we'll never fight when its dark!

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RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 9:30:19 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

Title says it all. Why are allied surface TF crews so damn terrible at night compared with their Japanese counterparts? I suppose it has something to do with the doctrines of both sides, but I was just wondering what the upper echelon decision was like to willfully NOT train the ship crews in night warfare...

No Jim, we'll never fight when its dark!


The IJN was an outlier in its realistic training and in its emphasis on night torpedo attacks. Eventually, the USN learned and radar helped a lot.

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Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 2
RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 9:31:30 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3887
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		The Japanese were experts in the manufacturing of night vision instruments and night targeting
systems with absolutely no match on the Allied side.
This technical advantage was old enough to influence Japanese surface combat doctrine and training
which emphasised firepower, surprise and decisive battles.
Developing an effective night combat doctrine based on these requirements was only natural. The Allies
held on to daytime battles where firepower played only an equal role to armor and numerical superiority. 

While I agree that the difference in night exp is a bit large this is to emulate the initial brutal
defeats of the Allied fleets in night engagements, so I can live with it.
Later radar sets eliminate this advantage largely (the lower night experience of the Allies should
be compensated by the better detection levels they have of the enemy TF in an engagement)
in concert with the number of better Allied weapon systems increasing over time.

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S**t happens in war.

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RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 12:25:02 PM   
d0mbo

 

Posts: 569
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline 		The japanese just ate more carrots. SImple as that.

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RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 12:55:27 PM   
LoBaron


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Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

The japanese just ate more carrots. SImple as that.



Is this correctly abstracted into supply consumption? If not it might be a bug.

On the other hand, damn, ships don´t consume supplies...

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S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 5
RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 1:12:48 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3234
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

The japanese just ate more carrots. SImple as that.



I heard a story that you could spot an RAF pilot in a London pub by the color of his skin. Seems the RAF fed a lot of carrots to get the slight edge you would get in night vision by having high levels of carotenes on board

I think in general one thing that is overlooked as far as the USN experience levels go is the effect of the Depression. USN budgets were pretty tight. The ships only had so many hours at see per year. With that limit on them, commanders leaned hard on what fleet doctrine prescribed - day time gunnery.

The Japanese on the other hand were at war with China since 1937 and knew that a war with the Western powers was a distinct possibility. The viewed the advantages gained by being prepared to fight at night as a force multiplier. They were right initially.

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Post #: 6
RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 1:47:58 PM   
bjmorgan


Posts: 2905
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

The japanese just ate more carrots. SImple as that.



The ships only had so many hours at see per year.


Clearly an unintended pun.

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 7
RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 3:39:28 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 3658
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline 		Japanese cruisers and destroyers practiced night combat. The Kirishima's practiced night combat. But IJN doctrine was for the main battle line to engage "the remnants" of the American Fleet the day after the cruisers and destroyers damaged the USN severely with their night torpedo attacks.

Although IJN CAs/CLs/DDs did achieve some good results in 1942 and 1943 the IJN Battleline's record was uniformly poor when compared to that of their lighter ships. Neither Hiei and Kirishima distinguished themselves in the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal other than to become the first and second IJN BBs to get sunk. The odds were terribly long against Yamashiro and Fuso at Surigao Strait and they accomplished nothing at all. And then there is the main Battlefleet's engagement against Taffy 3: just plainly a miserable performance.

The USN didn't go out to shoot in the weather but apparently doing so didn't help the IJN BB's shooting either.

IMHO the IJN's crop of "Battleship Admirals" were a pretty conservative and unimaginative lot. They did nothing to justify the higher ratings in naval combat or aggressiveness than their American counterparts.

(The airdales and some of the more junior admirals were good ones though. Just like the USN the IJN Player ought to have to pay PPs to sideline the senior "Duds").



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Post #: 8
RE: Why are allied crews so terrible at night? - 2/9/2011 3:56:35 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3234
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		Until late in 1943, having an admiral's flag flying over the flagship in a USN SCTF was almost a certain sign that a defeat was coming. The USN DD captains leading DesDiv's and DesRons caught on much more quickly. Even Ainsworth and Merrill had their moments of less than stellar performance. Mooseburger, Burke et al meanwhile had perfected their skills such that the IJN could barely get a shot in before the USN DD's overwhelmed them. Not to take anything away from Olendorf but he had ample warning and almost a full day to prepare. Still by late 1944 it was the USN that was the masters of the night. I doubt it is even possible for the game to model this

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Post #: 9
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