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Time table - what should i capture and when

 
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Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 1:06:38 PM   
cavalry

 

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JAPS PBEM SCN 2

Its now Feb 42 , what should I have captured and what should I soon capture to ensure keeping the allies on the back foot.

I have Manilla and thats it but Singapore is besieged. Lat bit of moping up going on in Malaya and Phillapines.

What next??
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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 2:02:19 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

JAPS PBEM SCN 2

Its now Feb 42 , what should I have captured and what should I soon capture to ensure keeping the allies on the back foot.

I have Manilla and thats it but Singapore is besieged. Lat bit of moping up going on in Malaya and Phillapines.

What next??


Your strategic goal is to capture and exploit the resources of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. Your next target is the Dutch East Indies.

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to cavalry)
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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 2:18:23 PM   
cavalry

 

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OK , it seems like I am already a good two weeks behind over the whole map - boy they must have moved fast

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 2:48:34 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

OK , it seems like I am already a good two weeks behind over the whole map - boy they must have moved fast


Historically, one of the most important examples of a successful economy of force operation. (I suspect that's why JWE is interested in replaying it.)

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 3:06:03 PM   
Canoerebel


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In Scenario Two, an experienced IJ player can essentially ignore Luzon while focusing on Singapore and the DEI. By February 1942, he'll be ready to launch a big invasion of India or Australia (or possibly Hawaii, though I'm not certain that would be worth it). Japan can use surplus forces to wear down the Allied army on Luzon, finally wiping it out in April or May or June, when it's out of supply and worthless.

I think that's what you'll see in Scenario Two in the future, and it will lead to a tense and interesting game through 1942.

Of course, newer players don't have the experience to draw on to pull off such an aggressive and ambitious plan, so you wouldn't expect them to be aware that such a plan is possible or to be able to keep to it even if they were.

In my game with Q-Ball, he followed this plan and has done very well, though ultimately he fell a little bit short of conquering India in 1942. He was serving as the ice breaker, so he didn't have the benefit of watching other players pursue such a strategy. Other players will have the benefit of what he demonstrated and learned - including Bullwinkle's very helpful analysis of the "reinforcement triggering threshholds.

I can't wait to follow the next Scenario Two games in which an experienced and reasonably aggressive Japanese player takes the helm. Of course, a resonably experienced and aggressive Allied player may put up a more effective defense than I did, but it will be fun viewing the show.

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 3:39:26 PM   
cavalry

 

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These plans look very ambitious

I am playing the Japs !!


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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 3:47:14 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

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Well, I am in Jan 42 in one of my games and have taken all the southern port cities of China, everything except Bataan in the Philipines and Maliasia expect for Singapore. Have taken Tavoy and on the way to Rangoon. Won't talk about the southern part of the map or the rest of China as it is still early in my games and my oppenents read this. lol

Yes, it is a good strategy to bypass the Philipines and Malasia as the Allied ground troops will eventually starve to death anyhow through lack of supply making it easy for the Japanese to take it. Why knock your head up against a brick wall when if you wait it will turn to butter? :-)

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 3:48:21 PM   
Alfred

 

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Before you can determine where you should be by February 1942, you need to have previously determined an anti-Allied strategy. There are many different strategies open for Japan at the beginning of the war. Each is different and has different benchmarks.

Suggest you read some AARs to get a feeling for the different possible strategies and how they can be implemented.

Alfred

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/7/2011 10:08:22 PM   
crsutton


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You got to take territory but you main purpose in life is to find and sink at least some of the American Carriers before late 1942. It is all about those carriers......so I would say go for something that he has to defend and go for it early.

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 12:00:13 AM   
jolly_pillager

 

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Your bottom line strategic priority is to secure the resources required to run your economy.

To do this you first need to seize the resources.

Then you need to keep the SLOC's between the resources and Japan open for as long as absolutely possible.

Anything you do that does not assist one of those two goals is wasted effort.

Any loss you take that does not impact one of those two goals is irrelevant.

Every military loss you take directly affects your ability to defend further, and therefore all military losses need to be weighed against the gain derived from their expenditure.

So there really is no such thing as "how far should I be by x date". What you need to ask is "Has my force expenditure to date been worth the gains made?" and "How long will it take the Allies to cut my SLOC's from the current game position?". Try to keep the answer to #1 as "worth it" and the answer to #2 as "as long as I can possibly make it".

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 1:06:24 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager

Your bottom line strategic priority is to secure the resources required to run your economy.

To do this you first need to seize the resources.

Then you need to keep the SLOC's between the resources and Japan open for as long as absolutely possible.

Anything you do that does not assist one of those two goals is wasted effort.

Any loss you take that does not impact one of those two goals is irrelevant.

Every military loss you take directly affects your ability to defend further, and therefore all military losses need to be weighed against the gain derived from their expenditure.

So there really is no such thing as "how far should I be by x date". What you need to ask is "Has my force expenditure to date been worth the gains made?" and "How long will it take the Allies to cut my SLOC's from the current game position?". Try to keep the answer to #1 as "worth it" and the answer to #2 as "as long as I can possibly make it".

Very nice post, Jolly Pillager!

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 1:53:17 PM   
cavalry

 

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Yes thanks

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 2:28:49 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In Scenario Two, an experienced IJ player can essentially ignore Luzon while focusing on Singapore and the DEI. By February 1942, he'll be ready to launch a big invasion of India or Australia (or possibly Hawaii, though I'm not certain that would be worth it). Japan can use surplus forces to wear down the Allied army on Luzon, finally wiping it out in April or May or June, when it's out of supply and worthless.

I think that's what you'll see in Scenario Two in the future, and it will lead to a tense and interesting game through 1942.

Of course, newer players don't have the experience to draw on to pull off such an aggressive and ambitious plan, so you wouldn't expect them to be aware that such a plan is possible or to be able to keep to it even if they were.

In my game with Q-Ball, he followed this plan and has done very well, though ultimately he fell a little bit short of conquering India in 1942. He was serving as the ice breaker, so he didn't have the benefit of watching other players pursue such a strategy. Other players will have the benefit of what he demonstrated and learned - including Bullwinkle's very helpful analysis of the "reinforcement triggering threshholds.

I can't wait to follow the next Scenario Two games in which an experienced and reasonably aggressive Japanese player takes the helm. Of course, a resonably experienced and aggressive Allied player may put up a more effective defense than I did, but it will be fun viewing the show.



Canorebel, this is not a qualitative rating of your and Q-balls strategy, you both play top league, but would you agree
that the your understanding of how to best play the Allies and the Japanese (your tendency to fall back and play very patient, to
some degree relying on a japanese overextension, and Q-Ball who is for sure one of the very aggressive Japanese players)
lead to the massive Japanese territory gain in your PBEM?

Just interested if you see it the same way because thats the conlusion I came to from watching your war.


Andy Mac vs. PzB is another example but I think the "no withdrawals" setting there made it absolutely unique compared
to the other AARs.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 2/8/2011 2:29:58 PM >


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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 4:58:00 PM   
dr.hal


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Jolly Pillager, that really did sum up the Japanese objectives succinctly and realistically. Great post. Hal

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/8/2011 6:47:46 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

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It is all very nice to say sink some American Carriers early but what if he decides to leave is Carriers on the West Coast USA for the first year or two of the war?

Sinking those American Carriers early are not the be all end all strategy available. If the Americans just sit back and watch then they might find the only land they still own is America come 1943. Even with all their Carriers they would be hard pressed to even get to Japan as they would first have to take back Australia or India or both. lol

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/9/2011 12:03:23 AM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
...would you agree that the your understanding of how to best play the Allies and the Japanese (your tendency to fall back and play very patient, to some degree relying on a japanese overextension, and Q-Ball who is for sure one of the very aggressive Japanese players) lead to the massive Japanese territory gain in your PBEM?

Just interested if you see it the same way because thats the conlusion I came to from watching your war.


Yes, my soft defense certainly enabled Q-Ball to make extraordinary territorial gains. My defense was based in part upon my concern that Q-Ball was aggressive, but moreso on the fact that I think he is at the "elite" level in that he has played both sides in AE PBEM games. He's a pretty rare bird in that regard.

There's no question that a stronger defense could pose big problems for an aggressive, experience IJ player in Scenario Two, but such a player also has the ability to essentially force the Allies player to commit his carriers to defend Oz or India. If an Allied player doesn't commit his carriers (IE, plays the way that I did), there's a pretty good chance his opponent will take one or the other and achieve auto victory. If the Allied player does commit his carrieers, odds are he will lose the battle, stave off auto victory (because he would do better than a 1:4 points ratio even in losing said battle), but would have a really tough time coming back without the carriers.

Scenario Two against a good IJ player in which the Allies doesn't have carriers is going to be awful well into 1944. At least that's my opinion. I'd very much like to see some matches of that sort.

(in reply to LoBaron)
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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/9/2011 5:14:12 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

It is all very nice to say sink some American Carriers early but what if he decides to leave is Carriers on the West Coast USA for the first year or two of the war?

Sinking those American Carriers early are not the be all end all strategy available. If the Americans just sit back and watch then they might find the only land they still own is America come 1943. Even with all their Carriers they would be hard pressed to even get to Japan as they would first have to take back Australia or India or both. lol



I'm not sure what you are getting at. You just answered your own question. If the Allied player parks his carriers on the East Coast then any skilled Japanese player will have a free reign to set up an very tough and extended permeter. Without a commitment of carriers then the Allies are ceeding to the Japanese player just about any base he wants to take short of Hawaii in the Pacific. There is a time when good Allied play dictates a commitment of the carriers. The Allies can just hope for a decent match anytime after July 1942 but never before. (for a period, the Allies have 9 fleet carriers) And, can look to fight anytime after Jan 1943 especially if working in conjunction with LBA. So, in my opinion, good Allied play would not consist of hiding carriers after late 1942.

If the Allies do a total Sir Robin then the Japanese player need to make the most out of it. Obviously, sinking carriers is not part of the game plan. If I am the Japanese player my hope is to fight Allied carriers early, but I think I can make do if I never see an Allied carrier for a year....

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RE: Time table - what should i capture and when - 2/9/2011 9:25:03 AM   
Tullius

 

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quote:

The Allies can just hope for a decent match anytime after July 1942 but never before. (for a period, the Allies have 9 fleet carriers)


I am considering an other idea but have not really found a solution. It seems to me that an Allied player should try a matchup much earlier in the war and even when he has no numerical superiority (1:2, 2:4 or 3:5). It is clear that an Allied player will have in such a match a big disadvantage and he risks to sink or damage his carriers but on the other side CAP is always holey and there is big chance that japanese carriers are at least damaged and out of play for some months. From a tactical point of view such a battle will win the japanese player but on long term i think every damaged or sunk IJN carrier pays much more dividends for the Allied side. In the first stage of the war many japanese player are very aggressive (because they have still have the bonus) and have to take risks. They need every air cover to achieve theire aims so any not available carrier hurts and leaves much more chances for counterplay. The loss of an american carrier is not nice but does not really change the overall picture.

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