RE: WitE vs. AE

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RE: WitE vs. AE

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RE: WitE vs. AE - 2/7/2011 1:39:25 PM

bjmorgan

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I'm waiting for WITPAE to include ALL officer training for both sides, not just pilot training. Gunnery, logistics, communication, engineering, the whole shebang. And not just manage supply, but the different categories of supply, Class I, II, III, etc. And, then I'll be totally ecstatic when I can manage individual plane repairs like I do for ships now, and .....

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Post #: 31

RE: WitE vs. AE - 2/7/2011 2:17:50 PM

SuluSea

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They are both great games for different reasons. As far as pilot training although I'm a fan of it I'd like to see a toggle option for those PBEM players that don't wish to use it. The way I'm looking at WITE and it's engine is kind of like UV to AE being more titles coming down the pike based off the engine.

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Post #: 32

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 3:33:06 PM

Canoerebel

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The contest continues....

P.S. My worthy opponent is faithfully sending a turn a day (well, almost every day), which is all I can ask for, so this post is meant in fun.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 5:43:09 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Another big difference. In the WitP AE game you will not see people asking for a Japanese invasion of the West Coast which will trigger an automatic surrender of the Americans therefore a decisive Japanese victory. The Japanese are DOOMED. We ALL know that

And you will never run out of Japanese players, soooo...

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Post #: 34

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 6:35:34 PM

jazman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I won't happy until we have a Grand WiTP+WiTE merger with the whole war in all theatres modelled with daily turns and every pilot, ship's captain and Divisional commander listed

But will it have small, playable scenarios? Such as "War in China 1937-45" or "War in Russia 1941-45"?

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Post #: 35

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 7:12:59 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Another big difference. In the WitP AE game you will not see people asking for a Japanese invasion of the West Coast which will trigger an automatic surrender of the Americans therefore a decisive Japanese victory. The Japanese are DOOMED. We ALL know that And you will never run out of Japanese players, soooo...

I didn't play AE, but in WITP "vanilla" there was an option for Japanese auto victory if the VP score went above 4:1 ratio if I remember correctly....

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 36

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 7:16:49 PM

TulliusDetritus

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I know, Oleg. Automatic Victory in AE as well. The problem is... to achieve this automatic victory you really should play against a Lab Chimp

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Post #: 37

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 8:00:48 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I know, Oleg. Automatic Victory in AE as well. The problem is... to achieve this automatic victory you really should play against a Lab Chimp

I got it twice IIRC (in vanilla not AE).... once playing vs a guy who simply accepted all fights like crazy right from the start, it was a crazy fun game, tons of fights, CVs, surface, air, you name it, every turn. He lost. We played another game, same strategy from him, but refined enough so that this time he kicked my ass.... if there was auto victory for Allies he would have got it.

Another auto vic was based on provoking Allied guy into a fight for something Allies can't afford to lose, and have to fight to defend. (That was historic Japanese idea behind Midway BTW). For him it was Noumea. He accepted to fight for Noumea, I brought Kido Butai Death Star, he lost, and that was that.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 38

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/5/2011 8:17:58 PM

TulliusDetritus

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These games are for the Allied player to lose, indeed

They are "crazy" games, as you described them. But if the Allied player cares about his forces...

In AE it's even more complicated (for both sides by the way). Less air support for example. And you can't base 200 B-17s in Port Moresby in let's say spring 1942.

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Post #: 39

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/6/2011 6:59:24 AM

Skanvak

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Japan hope to win the war with the US was a bit the same as Germany : They want to make them back off. Whereas the Japanese in China and German in Russia don't have peace plan. I think this is one of the big differences when comming to define peace condition. The other one, is that the will to fight of the American was not clearly establish, instead of waking the giant the japanese victory might have crumbled the US will to fight, thought more likely if the US have suffer defeat on both front at same time.

The other point about a Japanese landing in the US : I really don't see how it will trigger an automatic Victory? The US Army and Guards will be happy to slaughtered Japanese in mass and I believe that will have raised the will to fight of even a crumbling giant. No the real issue is on the sea.

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Post #: 40

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/7/2011 6:46:48 PM

Canoerebel

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Never mind.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/7/2011 7:46:58 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/7/2011 11:06:06 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I know, Oleg. Automatic Victory in AE as well. The problem is... to achieve this automatic victory you really should play against a Lab Chimp

Although it is my firm belief that the JFBs are getting closer to working out some set AV plans and we will see some in the future. QBall really had a chance in his attack on India has he perhaps chosen a few different options. He was sailing in uncharted waters though but the next attempt can build on his mistakes.

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Post #: 42

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 5:00:12 PM

Zemke_4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Well, I wouldn't call WITP a failure by any stretch. It's a great game, and I still think probably, in the end, better than this one. It's more 3 dimensional.

It is more complex than WITE, and it does take forever to play, unlike WITE.

I have to agree with Q-Ball. I'll tell you how good WitP:AE is, I consider myself an "Eastern Front" wargamer, and hoped that WitE would be the like WitP:AE in depth, but it does not come close. It is pretty, plays faster, but has no where the depth IMO.

I wanted so much for WitE to have the same detail or depth. I know that level of detail does not appeal to everyone, which is why more options switches should be included in WitP. I have said for some time if WitP:AE land warfare model was better or smaller scale some way, it would be almost the perfect wargame.

I have great hopes for WitE, but it has several issues which need to be worked out, and I am sure they will be sooner or later. Till then, I will continue to focus on WitP:AE.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 3/8/2011 5:14:32 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 5:13:44 PM

Zemke_4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Japan hope to win the war with the US was a bit the same as Germany : They want to make them back off. Whereas the Japanese in China and German in Russia don't have peace plan. I think this is one of the big differences when comming to define peace condition. The other one, is that the will to fight of the American was not clearly establish, instead of waking the giant the japanese victory might have crumbled the US will to fight, thought more likely if the US have suffer defeat on both front at same time.

The other point about a Japanese landing in the US : I really don't see how it will trigger an automatic Victory? The US Army and Guards will be happy to slaughtered Japanese in mass and I believe that will have raised the will to fight of even a crumbling giant. No the real issue is on the sea.

There seems to be this world wide assumtion that the US has some low will to fight, or will quit easily. This seems to be a mistake Japan made, and others today continue to make. I would say they really don't understand American very well or our history. As an example we have been in Afghanistan longer than the Soviet Union was now, and that is not gonig very particularly well, but we are still there. Won't be forever, and maybe not another 10 years, but still a long time bleeding, for good or bad depending on how you look at it.

So, I see NO WAY the US would have lost the will to fight in the time frame of WW II, not after Peal Harbor and the amount of blood already spilled. Americans were much more united then, than now. Americans during the war, wanted to end war to end it as soon as possible, which is why dropping the A-Bomb was not considered a terrible thing. It is only today that people second guess that decision, but the average American on the street during that time would have had no problem with dropping as many A-Bombs as needed to end the war. It was their sons who would have done the dieing in Japan if we had invaded.

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Post #: 44

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 5:32:44 PM

Adnan Meshuggi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Well, I wouldn't call WITP a failure by any stretch. It's a great game, and I still think probably, in the end, better than this one. It's more 3 dimensional.

It is more complex than WITE, and it does take forever to play, unlike WITE.

I have to agree with Q-Ball. I'll tell you how good WitP:AE is, I consider myself an "Eastern Front" wargamer, and hoped that WitE would be the like WitP:AE in depth, but it does not come close. It is pretty, plays faster, but has no where the depth IMO.

I wanted so much for WitE to have the same detail or depth. I know that level of detail does not appeal to everyone, which is why more options switches should be included in WitP. I have said for some time if WitP:AE land warfare model was better or smaller scale some way, it would be almost the perfect wargame.

I have great hopes for WitE, but it has several issues which need to be worked out, and I am sure they will be sooner or later. Till then, I will continue to focus on WitP:AE.

+1

WitE should be like WitP AE...

(in reply to Zemke_4)

Post #: 45

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 7:01:54 PM

fbs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I have to agree with Q-Ball. I'll tell you how good WitP:AE is, I consider myself an "Eastern Front" wargamer, and hoped that WitE would be the like WitP:AE in depth, but it does not come close. It is pretty, plays faster, but has no where the depth IMO.

+1

I understand where the designers came from on the design decisions on WITE, for example do not represent Divisional leaders and automated HQ support transfers. All these are, imho, aimed towards making the game faster and more playable to a wider base.

But I'm a grognard. I'd love to see WITE on daily turns, with leaders at all levels, and a more detailed implementation of some abstractions like air bases, aerial combat and support.

Perhaps Mr. Grisby would be enticed to make a "Pro" version or something :^D

ps: by the way, the most awesome scenario in TOAW ever is "Barbarossa Tactical" by Pierro Falotti. One of the few scenarios that I remember the designer by name. It has German units at Regiment level, Soviets at Division level, daily turns and 10-km hexes. Amazing scenario, although only a few people would go all the way to its end (300 turns or something).

< Message edited by fbs -- 3/8/2011 7:05:29 PM >

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Post #: 46

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 7:05:28 PM

cookie monster

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quote:

+1

WitE should be like WitP AE..

I dont think it would appeal to a large enough audience. The faster pace of WITE is better. To commit to a WITPAE PBEM and take 4 years is not for most wargamers.

You can see it in both games.

WITP Air & Naval Model great. Ground combat abstracted.

WITE Ground combat great. Air model abstracted. Naval model completely abstracted.

To have a 'complete' game would probably be too much game for most peoples computers.

Lets see what War in the West turns out like.

(in reply to Adnan Meshuggi)

Post #: 47

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 7:54:47 PM

alfonso

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Does anyone know how many copies were sold of WITP:AE? and of WITE in their 3 first months?.

And does anybody know what is the typical number of copies sold for a wargame? 1000? 5000? 25000? I have no idea...

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Post #: 48

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 9:05:21 PM

cookie monster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Does anyone know how many copies were sold of WITP:AE? and of WITE in their 3 first months?.

And does anybody know what is the typical number of copies sold for a wargame? 1000? 5000? 25000? I have no idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

(in reply to alfonso)

Post #: 49

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/8/2011 9:15:21 PM

flipperwasirish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Does anyone know how many copies were sold of WITP:AE? and of WITE in their 3 first months?.

And does anybody know what is the typical number of copies sold for a wargame? 1000? 5000? 25000? I have no idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

Since Matrix doesn't generally publish sales number I find it doubtful either of these would show up in a wiki article (though since much of wiki's info is unverified it's possible).

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RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/9/2011 4:27:36 PM

Zemke_4

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Wrong forum for this thought perhaps, but as the conversation has taken us this direction, I wish WitP:AE had tactical maps of the islands like "War in the Pacific", 2nd Edition has, a remake of the old SPI "War in the Pacific". With a tweaked ground combat model similar to WitE, (combat model is one of my issues with WitE, but not the major one), then WitP:AE would be the perfect massive Grognard game. What I hoped WitE would and maybe will be.

I also wish WitE used a smaller time and map scale. It would have been SO COOL to have 10k hex scale and 2 day turns, or something like that. The Eastern front is SO huge, but I think the people who play it, love it because it is so massive. I love how TOAW allowed you to alter the time and map scale and then increased or decreased the movement allowance of ground units automatically. I find it interesting how 2by2 and Matrix released a dedicated Eastern Front game that is only marginally better than some scenarios designed by hard core eastern front fans using TOAW, and in some way not better.

The solution may have to be from us the grognards, like the creation of WitP:Admiral's Edition, maybe we should start WitE:Field Marshal's Edition.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 3/9/2011 4:29:58 PM >

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RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/9/2011 7:35:22 PM

fbs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

Ah, so many games, so many memories.

Too bad they didn't include my favorite poker game of teenage years; what was that? Strep Poker? Stir Poker? Trip Poker? Oh no, I forgot...

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Post #: 52

RE: WitE vs. AE - 3/10/2011 8:25:43 PM

DivePac88

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As the esteemed Canoerebel once said; 'Never mind.'.

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Post #: 53

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