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Fast transport problem - 1/22/2011 9:24:53 PM   
Tomasek

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		I use extensively fast transports (typically combination if 3-4 CL and 6DD) to keep my bases in Australia supplied. I move in and out troops as well. I have noticed several times that the ships just stopped in the port and stayed there all the day. The settings was OK - no refuel, retirement allowed... It happen quite regularly - almost every second transport stops...
The ships otherwise behave normally - they move in cruise speed to a spot distant 9 hexes (full speed distance). Then they move toward the target, but the aften do not come back. Any suggestion?
Post #: 1
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/24/2011 11:47:13 AM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 1609
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Atlanta, GA - USA
Status: offline 		It probably has the most to do with remaining operations points to unload.  Shorten up your final turn distance to port, and this problem should go away.  I tend to set an intermediate final destination (remain on station) at a distance 6-7 hexes out.  The set to retire, full speed into the destination port.

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Andy M

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Post #: 2
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/25/2011 9:36:34 PM   
Tomasek

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		Well, suggested way probably works, but only in case of moving supply or troops to base. When you want to pick up some troops, then there is no way to put remain on station, since it cancels the load of troops (pick up unit). My experience is really bad - about two thirds of transports picking up trrops stay in the port over day phase full load. If they move at least some hexes (explaining some ops missing), but they are just there. Of course they have Not refuel and I tried as well full speed...

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 3
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/25/2011 9:56:18 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3257
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Not entirely clear what is the problem you are experiencing.

Read s.6.3.3.2.4 and s.6.3.3.4 of the manual and pay particular attention to the embedded comments on Fast Transport TF.

Alfred

(in reply to Tomasek)
Post #: 4
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/25/2011 10:23:40 PM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 1609
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Atlanta, GA - USA
Status: offline 		+1 on Alfred comments.  6.3.3.4 denotes fast transport pickup.  make sure you are targeting only one unit per TF.  The shorter your final leg into the hex, the more troops you will be able to pick up.

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Andy M

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 5
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/26/2011 6:48:49 AM   
Rainer79

 

Posts: 603
Joined: 10/31/2008
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Trying to evacuate these troops via flying boat is probably the better solution.

My experience with fast transport missions is several patches out of date as I stopped using them because sometimes the TF just wanted to die (waiting 1 hex off their objective in daylight during the inbound leg was a favorite). It had been getting better though.

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 6
RE: Fast transport problem - 1/26/2011 10:58:33 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer79
My experience with fast transport missions is several patches out of date as I stopped using them because sometimes the TF just wanted to die (waiting 1 hex off their objective in daylight during the inbound leg was a favorite). It had been getting better though.


It's also my impression that fast transport still not working as they should even with the latest patch.
But it's not easy for developers to find a reason for it without saves and problems described in black & white. So, guys, do something for the game to be better and describe your problems!

There is some funny behavior that IMHO needs to be closely analyzed because it looks like the game engine kind of... trying to cheat itself.

Michael, please take a look at the attached save, find two examples of routine working against the wishes of a player...
Find TF 27 from Shortlands to Rossel Island.
This is currently a fast transport with 250 OPs and 9/4 moves.
Switch the TF to change it's mission to surface combat. Get it? It now shows 6/3 moves, so no wonder that it ends up the next day at the destination. It shouldn't be there at dawn. Switch back to fast transport... again 9/4.

Something strange has also happened to TF 182. It finished at Gasmata that is 4 hexes away even though it should make 8/8 this turn. The only unusual thing about this one is that I had choosen the different path for the TF placing a waypoint on route.

My conclusion is that the fast transport moving routine is either cheating itself (1) showing the impossible distance or it is broken IF there are waypoints assigned (2).




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/1/2011 11:43:16 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline 		bump

(any comments?)

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Post #: 8
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/14/2011 10:17:19 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline 		bump again.
I'd gladly hear your comments on setting waypoints and problems with ft movement, Michael.

I also noticed that it may link with the bombardment cruises as well.
Had in range bombardment group 9/9 with sufficient fuel that ended in the target hex (distance 8) well after daybreak (also with waypoints assigned).

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Post #: 9
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/14/2011 10:27:02 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8197
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer79
My experience with fast transport missions is several patches out of date as I stopped using them because sometimes the TF just wanted to die (waiting 1 hex off their objective in daylight during the inbound leg was a favorite). It had been getting better though.


It's also my impression that fast transport still not working as they should even with the latest patch.
But it's not easy for developers to find a reason for it without saves and problems described in black & white. So, guys, do something for the game to be better and describe your problems!

There is some funny behavior that IMHO needs to be closely analyzed because it looks like the game engine kind of... trying to cheat itself.

Michael, please take a look at the attached save, find two examples of routine working against the wishes of a player...
Find TF 27 from Shortlands to Rossel Island.
This is currently a fast transport with 250 OPs and 9/4 moves.
Switch the TF to change it's mission to surface combat. Get it? It now shows 6/3 moves, so no wonder that it ends up the next day at the destination. It shouldn't be there at dawn. Switch back to fast transport... again 9/4.

Something strange has also happened to TF 182. It finished at Gasmata that is 4 hexes away even though it should make 8/8 this turn. The only unusual thing about this one is that I had choosen the different path for the TF placing a waypoint on route.

My conclusion is that the fast transport moving routine is either cheating itself (1) showing the impossible distance or it is broken IF there are waypoints assigned (2).





Ops point usage affect the ship moves displayed.

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Michael

(in reply to viberpol)
Post #: 10
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/14/2011 10:48:45 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

Find TF 27 from Shortlands to Rossel Island.
This is currently a fast transport with 250 OPs and 9/4 moves.
Switch the TF to change it's mission to surface combat. Get it? It now shows 6/3 moves, so no wonder that it ends up the next day at the destination. It shouldn't be there at dawn. Switch back to fast transport... again 9/4.


But why does the same task force with the same number of OPs shows different values of movement?

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Post #: 11
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/14/2011 12:20:11 PM   
michaelm


Posts: 8197
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		A Fast Transport TF uses a different 'max ship move' calculation to a non-FT one. One uses ops and the other not.

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Michael

(in reply to viberpol)
Post #: 12
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/18/2011 10:23:49 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
A Fast Transport TF uses a different 'max ship move' calculation to a non-FT one. One uses ops and the other not.


Ermm... Michael, there's really something odd with waypoints and fast transport.
Don't know what. Maybe the waypoints are coded to be reached at cruise speed and that's why arrival at the destination is after the daybreak?
Or maybe there is some mismatch in calculations if you load the supplies without stating the (base) target, and then, in turn, you change the destination to small (0/1) port hex?

Load the turn, go to TF47. It ended at Tassafaronga again although it should make 9 hexes per phase.

Second issue: TF26 unloaded at coastal hex even though it had "do not unload" orders.

SAVE BEFORE: (it's under "c" patch)

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/18/2011 10:27:29 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline 		SAVE AFTER:


Attachment (1)

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Post #: 14
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/19/2011 3:39:08 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8197
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Found "Second issue: TF26 unloaded at coastal hex even though it had "do not unload" orders."
The TF didn't have the proper load controls.
Should be fixable.


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Michael

(in reply to viberpol)
Post #: 15
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/19/2011 5:22:26 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8197
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I think putting the last waypoint too close to the destination seems to have an adverse effect. The code is delaying the TF at the waypoint (most likely the first one) for night before the run in.

I tried putting that waypoint further back (114,134) to allow the effect to happen before trying a run in. And changed it to Direct so that it didn't try to back up around the islands.

It did the run in, unload and was almost back to Buka by the end of the turn.

The code is very complicated around TF movement and unloading TF, so trying any changes could have servere unintentional impact at the moment.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 2/19/2011 5:24:06 AM >

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Michael

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Post #: 16
RE: Fast transport problem - 2/19/2011 2:39:10 PM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
I think putting the last waypoint too close to the destination seems to have an adverse effect. The code is delaying the TF at the waypoint (most likely the first one) for night before the run in.

(...)

The code is very complicated around TF movement and unloading TF, so trying any changes could have servere unintentional impact at the moment.


Thanks for looking into it. Just glad to hear I am not a paranoiac...
...and there are some issues concerning the movement/waypoints of fast transports.
I lost (too) many ships that were waiting to unload/do not unloading even after the daybreak to think it's just occasional/natural.

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Post #: 17
Waypoints and TF movement borked? - 2/22/2011 9:32:16 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I think putting the last waypoint too close to the destination seems to have an adverse effect. The code is delaying the TF at the waypoint (most likely the first one) for night before the run in.

I tried putting that waypoint further back (114,134) to allow the effect to happen before trying a run in. And changed it to Direct so that it didn't try to back up around the islands.

It did the run in, unload and was almost back to Buka by the end of the turn.

The code is very complicated around TF movement and unloading TF, so trying any changes could have severe unintentional impact at the moment.


But the waypoints seem to spoil other TFs movement/functioning as well, so it's not limited to FT TFs.

Here's an example of bombardment TFs that not only didn't show as it should, meaning at night, but also "forgot" to bombard at all! This is really weird.
Safe before (please take a look at TF47 and TF200).

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 18
RE: Waypoints and TF movement borked? - 2/22/2011 9:34:59 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 796
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline 		Save after.



Attachment (1)

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Post #: 19
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