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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

 
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/4/2011 7:25:47 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

When you say bombproof, do you mean the Soviet cannot reconnect?


Yes, I tried to get the Soviets to break the pocket maybe a dozen times to account for the variable movement allowances and they just can't get through the ZOC. The key is to have one armor unit with enough movement to reach that rail line west of Stanislav.


Is it not possible to place a Soviet unit (from outside) just in the hex south (well, SW) of that PanzerDiv west of Stanislav?

< Message edited by alfonso -- 3/4/2011 7:27:44 AM >

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Post #: 181
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/7/2011 7:04:08 PM   
carnifex


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I tried a bunch of times to punch through and the Soviets just didn't have enough MPs.

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Post #: 182
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 12:01:56 AM   
majeloz

 

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It probably doesn't matter that the pocket formed by the dash to the Rumanian border is 'broken' - the troops west of it usually get caught anyway because they still can't escape fast enough if you get the pocket right on turn 2, using the late-arriving Panzers.

I don't try to seal the pocket with troops - I use 11th pz (the one with the most MP, closest to border) to get all the way down to Rumania - has 1 MP left to push out the Security Regt and link with the Rumanians. My recent opponent happily broke the pocket but still got badly mauled on turns 2 and 3. A side benefit is that the 11th PZ then gets to play nasty down south

Maybe I am just naive?

Matt

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Post #: 183
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 12:32:38 AM   
2ndACR


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Lvov pocket is risky, if you fail to close it, you can be in for a nasty shock. But you always have to think turn 2-3. If you cannot securely close it, pull up short, just make sure you cut all the rail lines so he is forced to walk out. Then on turn 2-3 you can pocket them again.

I just had a nasty shock in my AAR, but luckily it worked out.

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Post #: 184
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 1:33:03 AM   
cap_and_gown


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If you want to be sure of getting the pocket, then make sure that tank division closest to the border is stocked up with support units and doesn't need to do any fighting before it encounters the NKVD regiment down on the Romanian border. You can assign both an pioneer battalion and a MG battalion to it at the start. In fact, you should use your initial set of admin points to assign pioneer battalions to all your panzer divisions, particularly the ones used to take Riga and to clear the path down to the Romanian border.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 185
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 2:33:51 AM   
Ridgeway

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

If you want to be sure of getting the pocket, then make sure that tank division closest to the border is stocked up with support units and doesn't need to do any fighting before it encounters the NKVD regiment down on the Romanian border. You can assign both an pioneer battalion and a MG battalion to it at the start. In fact, you should use your initial set of admin points to assign pioneer battalions to all your panzer divisions, particularly the ones used to take Riga and to clear the path down to the Romanian border.


Personally, I like to use the PzK support units in the Mot divs -- otherwise they get too weak in their attacks. And it is a shame to waste their movement as purely flank security.

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.

Interestingly, if you clear the hexes west of Tarnopol, you can leave the area south to Rumania almost unguarded (other than the guys at the base). One unit in the Pros area should suffice.

I do agree about the pioneers, though, -- they work well in the Pz Divs. The AFV support goes best in the MOT divs, I think.

(in reply to cap_and_gown)
Post #: 186
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 2:47:22 AM   
cap_and_gown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.



There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 187
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:03:16 AM   
Ridgeway

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.



There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:






Obviously, I haven't tried to break that position, but it looks pretty dicey for the Krauts. The INF DIV to the east should be able to move one hex directly west. Then the rest of the guys to the west can move east (hitting a Rum Cav to clear the way).

My understanding of the isolation rules is that once the pocket is broken, all the ISO penalties go away (other than some movement and attack capabilities based on supply). IOW, if you make a big pocket that breaks, you wasted your time, and might have well just concentrated on cutting rail lines.

(in reply to cap_and_gown)
Post #: 188
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:15:24 AM   
2ndACR


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Pocket not secure and will go back into supply next turn. If you try the Lvov pocket, you better think what do I do on turn 2-3 if he does this, or you will have to spend time saving some armor units.

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Post #: 189
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:30:13 AM   
Mynok


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Here is my most recent experiment. Not perfect by any means, as the panzer south of Rovno will almost certainly be isolated. They will be easily relieved by 6th army though.



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Post #: 190
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:39:18 AM   
Klydon


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Yeah, that is somewhat close to what I was doing in the early going except I didn't do anything with Rovno. I like doing the double penetration east and west of Lvov to get things going, but unfortunately you have to be careful about 17th army attacking down that way because the Russians can link up there and break the pocket. (Such an issue exists in that screen shot with likely the anti tank unit moving south next to that single 17th army unit and something from the south moving up to establish contact).

I need to spend some time on my opening German strat, but only so much time. :(

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 191
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:40:34 AM   
2ndACR


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OOH you pulled a bunch from AGC. I have toyed with the idea of sending half of AGC armor to the south.

Looks like you could get Rovno and the southern panzer isolated. But you are correct that you have help close by so it is only a minor set back.

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Post #: 192
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:55:36 AM   
Mynok


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I'm pretty sure that the western side is safe. Those units closest towards the Hungarian border were well-waxed during my attack. The infantry will only be able to move one hex due to ZOCs, leaving a hex of my control to maintain the pocket. One thing I like about this is the gap that 17th army makes is much closer to where the AGS panzers start and they can move a long way through there making a nice, wide corridor to hinder those powerful units down by Stanislav from incursion.

I pulled one Pz Corps and one extra Pz Div from AGS. It did not hurt my AGC pocket at all. It does cause some issues with 2nd Panzer getting to Gomel, but the south moves along very nicely with them there, and they turn north at Kiev to help out (and switch back to AGC at that point).


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Post #: 193
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:58:36 AM   
Mynok


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I really like having the AGC cav in the swamps there to clean out crap trying to regroup and threaten my northern flank. It does a banner job at that. I send the AGC infantry back north to help at Gomel/Mogilev.

Biggest lesson learned in all my experiments: blast everything you can in the first turn. Use that advantage to the fullest to destroy/rout Soviets.


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Post #: 194
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 5:33:55 AM   
2ndACR


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I have been toying with sending 2 of AGC panzer Corps to the south until after Kiev and then sweeping them north. Seems to work pretty good against the AI, not sure about a human but I also blow the entire front wide open and route just about everything. That leaves AGC with 3 Panzer Corps to advance with.

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Post #: 195
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 11:39:34 AM   
cap_and_gown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.



There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:






Obviously, I haven't tried to break that position, but it looks pretty dicey for the Krauts. The INF DIV to the east should be able to move one hex directly west. Then the rest of the guys to the west can move east (hitting a Rum Cav to clear the way).

My understanding of the isolation rules is that once the pocket is broken, all the ISO penalties go away (other than some movement and attack capabilities based on supply). IOW, if you make a big pocket that breaks, you wasted your time, and might have well just concentrated on cutting rail lines.


Well, I have tried to break it and it can't be done. There is no way for the Russians to reach the hex just north of the cavalry units which will convert to German control during the logistics phase. And no one has either the movement points or the strength to take out those cavalry units.

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Post #: 196
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 12:12:39 PM   
CharonJr

 

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The only potential weakness to me seems to be to the north of the 2 panzer divisions, but it is unlikely that the Soviets will have enough MPs to move 2 and 3 hexes.

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Post #: 197
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:02:06 PM   
mikemcmann

 

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Cap and gown

It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.

I think that the Romanian move is fine, but it requires a 2nd par group Corp to seal securely

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Post #: 198
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:24:06 PM   
Mynok


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Yes, the panzer div needed to move SE to the border, then attack the Soviet infantry. Then the pocket would be secure down there, barring a successful attack of some nature.

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Post #: 199
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:25:39 PM   
cookie monster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

Cap and gown

It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.

I think that the Romanian move is fine, but it requires a 2nd par group Corp to seal securely


He said the isolated hex flips to axis control during the logistics phase.

quote:

Well, I have tried to break it and it can't be done. There is no way for the Russians to reach the hex just north of the cavalry units which will convert to German control during the logistics phase. And no one has either the movement points or the strength to take out those cavalry units.


Therefore it doesnt matter if the two units move one hex. There will still be one hex short of breaking the isolation.

EDIT

added quote

< Message edited by cookie monster -- 3/8/2011 3:26:47 PM >

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Post #: 200
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:28:10 PM   
EntropyAvatar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann
It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.


No, the space between them reverts to Axis before the Sov player starts his turn. The only way any units would have the movement to reach that space is to take out the romanian cav and they just finished saying that it can't be done.

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Post #: 201
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 3/8/2011 3:28:17 PM   
cap_and_gown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

Cap and gown

It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.

I think that the Romanian move is fine, but it requires a 2nd par group Corp to seal securely


The hex in between will convert to German control during the logistics phase.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 202
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/8/2012 6:03:37 PM   
gregorit

 

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If you build out the rail network from northern Romania, as many sharks do, you will need to OCCUPY those two rail hexes. (Next to the RCav units in the previous diagram.) German FBDs will lack the MPs to do this and, if you're trying to maximize supply network construction, you've just fallen almost a full turn behind.

(in reply to cap_and_gown)
Post #: 203
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