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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

 
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/22/2011 10:56:04 PM   
Mynok


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That's a challenging situation. You are making me think. Stop that.


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Post #: 121
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/23/2011 4:27:34 AM   
2ndACR


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Yep, pocket held, but he sure got a bunch of units out of the pocket. He also has formed his next defense line.




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Post #: 122
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/24/2011 6:08:38 PM   
Q-Ball


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I remain convinced that the best solution is to borrow part of PzGrp2, and use those extra units to create a massive turn-1 pocket right to the Romanian Border. That, plus the "Kovel" pocket which can pocket a Mech Corps using nothing but Infantry (and Cav), should give a good head-start in the South. Most of the decent Tank Units this way end-up either pocketed, or partially battered.

Maybe someone should start a AGC Turn 1 thread. I would start it with the assumption that 46 Pz Corps is pointed SOUTH. I think there is less to look at in this area, and forming a Bialystok pocket is something that EVERYONE has caught onto. But we should give it a shot.

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Post #: 123
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/24/2011 6:29:49 PM   
2ndACR


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We can do that. AGC is pretty straight forward on the opening shot, same for AGN. I have seen where people are not grabbing the 2 ports on the west coast and cutting Riga off so that a large number of Russians cannot escape as easy.

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Post #: 124
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/31/2011 1:53:04 AM   
Krieg

 

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I dont know about these opitions. Everytime I play a human oppponent who does not fall back, the fighting in the South turns bloody quickly. I was contemplting pulling all armored units from AGS and chop then to AGC. I would assign the inf units recvd in the first few turns to make up some of the attack power. I my thought was to use the extra mabile units in the AGC's AOR then after Smolensk, swing south to attack Kiev from the East with the mobile units. In my opinon either the Soviet player would have to retreat to avoid an encirclement or fight on two fronts to hold the pocket. I know it is a gamble and would have to be complete by winter, but if the fighting is going to be slow anyways and likely manuerver forces will only get ground down would they not be better used in an AOR that is more conducive to them? Just a thought!

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Post #: 125
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/31/2011 2:54:53 AM   
2ndACR


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Heck no, AGS is your armor friendly front. I would move armor in rather than out.

Infantry blast the hole, armor pours thru.

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Post #: 126
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/2/2011 10:40:19 PM   
Q-Ball


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Check out my AAR, I used this opening in my first turn. It worked very well, and I am pleased with the impact of the extra Panzer Corps, which I made permanent and attached to PzGp 1. It's turn 4, and we've destroyed quite a few units, which was the priority down there. (Something like 40 divisions so far)

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Post #: 127
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/2/2011 10:49:41 PM   
2ndACR


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That extra Panzer Corps does make a big difference. I almost think it is much needed for this particular opening.

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Post #: 128
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/2/2011 10:52:24 PM   
Q-Ball


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I don't think the Lvov pocket is possible vs. a human without the extra Panzer Corps. Against the AI sure, but a human can break it too easily.

Forming a Lvov pocket has a huge payback; couple that with the Kovel Pocket, and that's more than half of Southwest Front off the board right away.

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Post #: 129
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/2/2011 11:00:04 PM   
2ndACR


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Yep, only takes about 2 weeks to really clear the Lvov pocket too. There will be some stragglers that have to get picked off, but the majority of your troops are on the road by turn 3.

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Post #: 130
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 1:36:54 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Not trying a thread necromancy here, but I have given some thought (and a couple turn playthrough against myself) to the "2nd-1st" Panzer Group switch, sending the XXXXVI Panzer south on turn 1, and sending XIV to the center on turn 2. 

My reasoning is that AGS gets more punch for the large encirclement on turn 1 (which keeps things from bogging down less, important on that front) in turns following the opening, and it does not diminish AGC as much - in fact, it gets the XIV corps to the line on turn 3, after moving full distance turn 2 (since all the hexes have been converted in the turn 1 encirclement), they might even have enough juice to do more near Mogliev/Dnepr than the already tired 2nd Panzer.

This allows the large encirclement in the South, and does not slow the center as much. Now, your mileage may vary, but it seems that keeping momentum in the south is vital.

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Post #: 131
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 1:46:57 PM   
BigAnorak


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I used "the switch" in most of my tests, using XIV to form an SS motorised Corps, filled with flammpanzers and nebelwerfers to dash for Mogilev/Vitebsk. However, in recent tests I sent the SS motorised corps all-out to break into the Crimea.

With the next patch and the "softer" swamps, I am going to send the SS corps to get across the Luga and unhinge the defences in front of Leningrad.

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Post #: 132
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 1:57:19 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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I played around with this too, eventually getting 4th Panzer Group a third corp (and for the first year the SS make a good fire brigade), I think the swamp modifier change will help this. One thing waiting for this patch has done for me is to look at the first few turns in different ways, hopefully helping my skills a bit.

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Post #: 133
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 2:23:00 PM   
Mynok


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Yep, I've been running practice rounds trying different things, since the swamp issue doesn't affect the first turn much.

Moving crap around and learning where all my support units are and figuring out where they need to be helps too.

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Post #: 134
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 3:44:04 PM   
Q-Ball


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I thought of "swapping" in my current AAR, but decided to keep some extra punch in AGS. After all, that's almost half the map and the best tank country. If Pz Gp 2 STARTED in the south, would everyone move it north of the Pripet, or do we send it there just because it's already there?

I imagine with the new patch that Leningrad in general will get alot more attention, because the swamp rule will open up the terrain there. In my opinion, taking it is better than Moscow, because it's more defensible, and frees the Finns. Taking Moscow without Leningrad makes the line longer.

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Post #: 135
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 3:50:26 PM   
Mynok


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I like the swap idea. Fact is, 2nd panzer almost always pulls a Guderian and ends up in the south anyway, but having it at full strength to breach the river is very helpful.


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Post #: 136
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 4:35:31 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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That is sort of my present thought - the XIV goes on loan to the center, and it hits the Dnepr right on its 2nd turn of supplies, when the rest of 2nd Panzer Group has run out of steam, it can do some fun that way. Eventually, 2nd should help south anyway, unless your opponant denudes the area in front of Moscow...well, one can hope...

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Post #: 137
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 7:45:43 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Not trying a thread necromancy here, but I have given some thought (and a couple turn playthrough against myself) to the "2nd-1st" Panzer Group switch, sending the XXXXVI Panzer south on turn 1, and sending XIV to the center on turn 2. 

My reasoning is that AGS gets more punch for the large encirclement on turn 1 (which keeps things from bogging down less, important on that front) in turns following the opening, and it does not diminish AGC as much - in fact, it gets the XIV corps to the line on turn 3, after moving full distance turn 2 (since all the hexes have been converted in the turn 1 encirclement), they might even have enough juice to do more near Mogliev/Dnepr than the already tired 2nd Panzer.

This allows the large encirclement in the South, and does not slow the center as much. Now, your mileage may vary, but it seems that keeping momentum in the south is vital.


Heck, I've been mixing and matching and it took me like 5 days to finally have something I'm real happy with.
I think I'll give this a go as I wait for the new patch, those boys on the hill (124 Rifle Division) fight hard for that hex

Thanks for the insight guys.

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Post #: 138
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/10/2011 8:06:56 PM   
Mynok


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They do indeed.

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Post #: 139
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 11:23:14 AM   
SuluSea


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I stitiched together a map of the first day Soviets in AGS if anyone will find it useful. Click on the pic and it will resize, copy and save for those who want it.




< Message edited by SuluSea -- 2/11/2011 11:28:35 AM >

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Post #: 140
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 5:45:24 PM   
Q-Ball


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The guys on that hill take 3 Divisions on Deliberate attack; no more, no less. I use 3 from the same Corps in 17th Army, so the 6th Army grunts save their MPs to close the Kovel Pocket, and create a little space for the Panzers.

There is a big difference in fighting ability in the south with the Reds; north of the Pripet, a stiff breeze routs every unit. South of it,though, is another story......

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Post #: 141
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 6:01:03 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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The Q-Ball Maneuver - using infantry to cut off and surround Kovel as well as the 2nd PzG corp to cut off the Lvov Pocket (like it or not, it is going to have your name on it!) - is, right now, the best opening. I am realist enough to know there may well be better options learned in the future, but for now creating these two pockets, having your armor for a good 2nd turn (do not underestimate this advantage to the Lvov pocket), all helps create some momentum in the south that is needed. Any chance to throw your opponant off balance a bit is good, and this has the benefit of trapping many divisions.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 142
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 6:18:20 PM   
cookie monster


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I reckon we should call it ''The Q-BALL GAMBIT''

An ode to the WITPAE ''MERSING GAMBIT''

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Post #: 143
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 7:49:04 PM   
Q-Ball


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Mersing is a place, though, not a person. And someone else had the idea first. Maybe not the using-infantry-for-Kovel pocket part, but certainly the whole concept isn't mine.

The Kovel pocket is tricky, you need to be very careful on not using the Infantry close to the border, you have to be careful on sequence, because you really have to push the Mot Div south of Kovel correctly when it retreats. If that doesn't happen, if it retreats east, you can't close it without a Mobile unit. That's the trickiest part of that pocket, is that Mot Div.

The trickiest part of the Lvov pocket is the two Mech Corps north of Tarnopol. Move those aside, and you're home free.

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Post #: 144
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/11/2011 8:33:02 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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You put it all into practice in a game first, so it is yours - like it or not. Now the PDH (no need to spell out my whole handle, it is just initials) Maneuver is to lose so badly on Turn 1 that I have to forfeit shortly thereafter.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

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Post #: 145
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/12/2011 1:03:22 AM   
SuluSea


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I'll be using Q-Balls Korvel Korner ® .

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Post #: 146
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/12/2011 3:31:10 AM   
Ketza


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It shall be forever known as "the Qball maneuver" but will not be related to "the dirty sanchez" or any type of well known "manuevers" that have been made popular though history.

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Post #: 147
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/12/2011 4:02:36 AM   
Klydon


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Qball maneuver sounds more like something Captain Kirk would use. 

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Post #: 148
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/12/2011 4:11:41 AM   
randallw

 

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Q-ball in the Kovel pocket?

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Post #: 149
RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 2/12/2011 10:40:18 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The guys on that hill take 3 Divisions on Deliberate attack; no more, no less.


Not now they don't, only 2.
Beta 3/4 be praised

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Post #: 150
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