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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 11:40:22 PM

Q-Ball

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Here is one solution: Use the Panzers to hit those Mechanized Corps right now, Turn 1, when you have all those bonuses, and when you can get easily re-supply for next turn.

This is unbreakable by the Soviets.

All of this without borrowing any AGC Panzers.

I think I like this one so far, any others?

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Post #: 61

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 12:40:11 AM

2ndACR

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Only thing I dislike about hitting all those armor units is they tend to rout if you hit them hard enough and they come back to cause problems. I prefer to isolate when I can. I did not think I could grab them in my AAR, but I am slowly bagging them. He is up to 12,000 afv losses now turn 9. Even though he gets them back, I want him to have to re-fill them from scratch.

But it is a very nice opening move. Especially how far you got with just infantry.

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Post #: 62

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 12:49:58 AM

ComradeP

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quote:

Why are all those hexes in the pocket but outside of Soviet ZOCs showing as under German control now?

Hexes outside ZOC flip to enemy control if the units in the area are isolated.

-

Some of the strategies displayed here are interesting. I remain a fan of the "big solution", but these "small solutions" are nice, maximizing gains with the limited initial units of AGS.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 1/21/2011 12:51:01 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 1:42:16 AM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Hexes outside ZOC flip to enemy control if the units in the area are isolated.

Interesting. Very interesting.

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Post #: 64

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 1:47:33 AM

Sabre21

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Making the Rumanian linkup on turn one isn't all that tough to do. But there is risk involved on a strategic level. The German player must decide to either deny key forces to the center (part of 2nd Panzers) or have a very pourous frontline that the Soviets can easily get through.

The pros obviously of doing the Rumanian linkup is the entrapment of a large number of Soviet units. Even if not solidly trapped on turn 1, typically by turn 3 they are all dead meat. But there is more to this strategy than just cutting of Soviet units. You want to maintain the strategic initiative by keeping pressure on the Soviets and keep him from building any type of credible defense. This means your panzers must be constantly on the move and kept refueled. You can't do this if your units get tied down, surrounded, and/or denied fuel.

A skillful Soviet player can cause a lot of grief and tie down a large number of Germans for several turns if this, or any pocket, isn't sealed tightly.

It all boils down to what strategy the German player wants to emphasize. If you make your main effort down south, then making the linkup with extra armor makes sense. On the other hand, if you want Moscow before winter, moving even part of 2nd Panzers south could mean all the difference.

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Post #: 65

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 1:59:30 AM

cap_and_gown

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Question: I see some people (like Q-Ball) committing the 17th Army to combat in a straight forward plunge towards Lvov, while others just leave enough to guard the frontier without committing to combat west of the Bug. Wouldn't it be best to not commit to border battles with units that are going to be pocketed? (This applies in the AGC area as well.) Why fight them when they are strong? Why not wait until they are weaker in following turns?

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Post #: 66

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 2:28:01 AM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Question: I see some people (like Q-Ball) committing the 17th Army to combat in a straight forward plunge towards Lvov, while others just leave enough to guard the frontier without committing to combat west of the Bug. Wouldn't it be best to not commit to border battles with units that are going to be pocketed? (This applies in the AGC area as well.) Why fight them when they are strong? Why not wait until they are weaker in following turns?

Hey, another AE brother over here! Love your AARs C and G, no lazy carriers over here though.....

If you don't send 17th Army down that Mountain chain straight-off, all the units along it are going to get away. You really need to cut that rail line, or they'll just jump on the nearest train and get away. The more I think about this, the more I think you need to plunge 17th Army South/SouthEast to block retreat for alot of the Soviet forces, or they live to fight another day. Better to attack Turn 1 and take them out.

In AGS, you really need to prioritize killing units, particularly Tanks, as the Reds start with a surplus down there. Failing to address that will get you bogged down.

In the shot I sent, they are not yet isolated, so earliest is turn 3 before they are liquidated. On the flip side, you can probably finish them off with OKH Reserves or the Slovaks, which are perfect clean-up troops.

To COMRADE Ps point, the stuff I posted assumes a "AGC FIRST" strategy; only using the limited stuff in AGS. It's a "Bare Minimum" start move. I also didn't use air support, though I also didn't bother nuking the Red airfields first, so that might make a difference in the positive, if there is no Red air support.

2nd ACR: One of the Tank Divs I hit DID rout. Not as good as isolation, but puts that unit firmly out of it for awhile. It lost a pile of tanks, and probably is UNREADY for a couple turns. A Mot Div also routed.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 1/21/2011 2:33:31 AM >

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Post #: 67

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 2:57:58 AM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Question: I see some people (like Q-Ball) committing the 17th Army to combat in a straight forward plunge towards Lvov, while others just leave enough to guard the frontier without committing to combat west of the Bug. Wouldn't it be best to not commit to border battles with units that are going to be pocketed? (This applies in the AGC area as well.) Why fight them when they are strong? Why not wait until they are weaker in following turns?

I think it depends on what type of attack you plan on. If you are doing the "Rumanian border dash", then 17th army does not need to make a deep penetration on its front. (In my experiments, I have pulled much of 17th army over to the left side and had it open the way for 6th army to make a deeper penetration). If you do a smaller solution (like I outlined for example), then you need penetration on both sides because you can't get the mountains cut off.

There are other issues/reasons for attacking. First, the first turn surprise rules are in effect. Among the big things for the Germans is that each attack costs 1 movement point, so your units can get more done on turn 1 than at any other time of the game. At the very least, you should absolutely clean out every fortified zone you can find because they will surrender. Given the higher moral of the units in the south, you can usually attack them once and they won't rout. With careful attacking, you can sort of herd them in to make the pockets smaller (and make it easier to guard and clean up the following turn). At the same time is the idea that you cause the enemy some losses and a moral drop, so that means it will be easier to kill them the following turn rather than if you just left them alone. Finally, most of the Soviet units on the border are typically in level 2 forts. Depending on the terrain they are in, that isn't exactly a gimmie to attack them with a single unit and get them to surrender where if you kick them out on turn 1, they are not usually in a fortified spot (especially if you also go through and wipe out the forts with movement/zocs). This also makes it easier to kill them.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 3:24:43 AM

cap_and_gown

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Here is my contribution to the AGS 1st turn. The idea here was to use the 46th Pz Corp MPs to fight with and use the AGS tank MPs almost strictly for movement. Also, with the 46th Corp I basically stacked the entire corps in one hex and made hasty attacks with the entire stack against the large tank divisions to make sure they would retreat (which they did). I find that in some case having a large stack do a hasty attack may be better for saving movement points than to use fewer units and a deliberate attack.

I haven't tried the Soviet side to see if this will hold, but it is a wide corridor and it should prevent them from breaking the encirclement and it should also prevent them from isolating any of my own units.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 4:51:24 AM

Mynok

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He can break that down south, so they won't be isolated next turn. But they sure aren't going to escape. Still, like others have said, that's a lot of AGC firepower diverted down south.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 5:01:31 AM

Klydon

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Yeah, it can be broken in a couple of spots down south without an issue. The panzers could be in trouble as well because I don't know that the GD can hold in a counter attack. Don't get me wrong, they are not going away, but if the Soviets force a retreat, then the rest of the panzers to the south are cut off.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 5:37:14 AM

Magnum88

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I use the western-most elements of 17th Army to clear the border north of Lvov because that frees up 1-3 MPs for the units there (no +1 MP moving out of ZOC and a straighter path) to use swinging east and do the initial hole that 6th Army and then the panzers expand. Also, like Kyldon said, attacks are cheap and in doubt I use deliberate attacks because they only cost 3 MPs and if they route north of Lvov they will route further into the pocket.

I also set up future pockets Turn 2 with this. The Mech Corps by the border to the north of the hole is not isolated but cannot escape and will be next turn. Against the AI the next Mech Corp by Rovno never moves to escape (I guess they do not feel threatened) and some the infantry and panzer swing north to Rovno and catch them also. After that the Soviets have too few units to effectively slow me down without risking getting isolated again.

This keeps the strategic initiative with me and allows me to move that much faster to Kiev and that much faster linking with AGC east of the Pripyat Marsh.

< Message edited by Magnum88 -- 1/21/2011 5:38:44 AM >

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 12:52:31 PM

2ndACR

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It is important to distinguish your first move as versus a human or AI. Against the AI, you can really stick your neck out.

Magnum, I think your move looks like a versus AI. But against a human, that mech unit will move. Along with all the other armor units.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 2:39:01 PM

cap_and_gown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Here is my contribution to the AGS 1st turn. The idea here was to use the 46th Pz Corp MPs to fight with and use the AGS tank MPs almost strictly for movement. Also, with the 46th Corp I basically stacked the entire corps in one hex and made hasty attacks with the entire stack against the large tank divisions to make sure they would retreat (which they did). I find that in some case having a large stack do a hasty attack may be better for saving movement points than to use fewer units and a deliberate attack.

I haven't tried the Soviet side to see if this will hold, but it is a wide corridor and it should prevent them from breaking the encirclement and it should also prevent them from isolating any of my own units.

In playing around with this a little more, I found the following:
1) The Soviets cannot get enough MPs to deliberate attack GD. Even with the two biggest stacks I could form the hasty attacks accomplished nothing. GD had a CV of 13 and a fort level of 1. So there is no danger of the panzers being cut off.
2) The southern most Pz division still had 4 MP left. So I moved it one hex SW and hasty attacked the NKVD regiment. With this movement and attack, the Soviets were left with no units with enough MPs to break the encirclement.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 2:48:10 PM

Klydon

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I would probably look to do something with the 17th army for C&G's opening. Not to attack at all on the first turn is wasting time. I would probably look to punch through to hug in around Lvov to keep units from moving too much there and also to pin the guys along the mountains. This also gets 17th army into better position to follow up against the pocket on the second turn.

I am just about to post this at some point as soon as I get one more detail worked out, but I have a campaign version with 1st Panzer units fixed and able to move on the first turn, so in most plans, it won't be necessary to take motorized units from PG2. Obviously the 2 infantry and 1 cav unit are likely to be involved, which is fine and probably needed to seal that northern pocket.

Essentially, the two motorized divisions by the border are attached to two panzer corps instead of PG1 HQ (as they were historically). LSSAH remains attached to PG1 HQ (as it was historically at the start). I also moved up one of the panzer divisions that was pretty far from the border.

Here is a screen shot of the changes:

*Edit* 14 Panzer corps shows 0 movement. I got that fixed, so it will be able to move on turn 1.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 3:42:26 PM

Q-Ball

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Here is a "Big" Option that is Human-Proof. This is tricky to pull off and took a couple tries, but the basic elements:

1. Bring over several divisions from 17th Army to 6th Army sector, and use them to smash the border defenses, including that unit on the Rough (3 Divisions should be enough for that one)
2. 6th Army exploits the gap; move as far west as possible, and knock back some units to clear lanes for Panzers
3. While you are doing this, you can use Infantry/Cav to close the pocket around KOVEL; no mobile forces needed for this one, so kind of a no-brainer. You will need to bend back a couple units to accomplish this, particularly that Mot Div SE of Kovel.
4. Send PzGP 2 Mobile forces into breach, and work on those Mechanized Units that give everyone trouble. This is the trickiest part; I think you have to Deliberate Attack both Tank Divs to get them retreated and begin to weaken them. A couple more hasty attacks to push them aside, and create a lane.
5. Make sure the PzGp 2 Mobile forces have enough MPs remaining to get to good blocking positions. Body-up on CAV and Mobile units outside the pocket.
6. Make sure you save the 2 Pz Divs from PzGp1 that are closest to the border for last; move the other two to help reduce/move the Mech units. You probably need them to do so.

7. The last 2 Panzers run for the border. Make sure they widen the lanes on their way down; if you do that, the Russians can't close it, even if there are no units there.

So, I think it's very possible to surround a huge pile of units Turn 1, and make it human proof. Should you?

1. IS THIS GAMEY? Is releasing the Romanians like this Gamey? I tend to think not, but some do.
2. CAN YOU DIVERT THAT MUCH FROM AGC? Once you divert 46th Corps, you probably should HQ it to Pz Gp 1, and make that permanent. Is this wise?
You could balance that turn 2 by giving AGC the 14th Pz Corps (1 Panzer, 2 SS Div). The net result would be that AGC has about the same strength, just some of the mobile units would be a turn behind, and need to catch-up.

I think the temporary diversion of strength from AGC is worth it.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 3:50:24 PM

2ndACR

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That one looks good Q-ball.........nice and strong. Those blasted dice rolls are a pain. Nothing is sure fire. And that is why I love Gary's games so much.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 4:12:56 PM

cap_and_gown

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You have one additional Pz Division you can use west of Lublin. This would allow you to strengthen the corridor.

Also, you don't need a deliberate attack if you stack your guys three to a hex. 3 Pz divisions can easily clear any blockers with a hasty attack.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 4:17:37 PM

Flaviusx

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Q-Ball, one problem I'm seeing with the pocket: you are leaving a number of your HQs exposed to displacement on the Soviet turn.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 4:19:17 PM

2ndACR

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Yep, missed that one, alot of HQ's are exposed.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 4:42:16 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-Ball, one problem I'm seeing with the pocket: you are leaving a number of your HQs exposed to displacement on the Soviet turn.

This was a TEST, I hadn't moved them. That's easy enough to fix. I just didn't bother since this was not for the long-haul.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 5:43:40 PM

Klydon

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Looks good, although I think you transfer 10th motor division (one next to Das Reich) into XXXXVI panzer and bring the stack down. This allows the use of hasty attacks and win against the tank divisions further south.

What happen with the border guard down on the Rumanian border? That sucker usually retreats, but has enough movement/moral to cause issues in breaking the pocket.

Could be more effective to show who owns what territory after your move, but I think most everyone gets the idea.

I also think you get the rest of 17th army started on the right, pushing those units out of their fortifications and moving up a bit. They will make the pocket smaller, thus requiring fewer MPs to clean out units next turn along with being closer to moving to the main front to the east. Even if you lose a Russian or two due to where they route, I still think it is worth it. Now, if you plan on that, but didn't do it because you were working on the breakthrough, then that is fine (Sort of like not moving HQs).

One last point is the rail repair guy. Where are you working on your rail head at? If you go east, the Soviets can zoc a rail hex (if they haven't already) which will slow down progress. If you wait for Lvov to be cleaned out, it is a bit of a risk that you can clean everything out there and it will also delay the rail head. I think you try to park a unit next to the tank division south east of the rough and that should be good.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 6:57:43 PM

Magnum88

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As I said the AI does not move the Mech Corps around Rovno and I am sure a human player would move them out of harms way. However, even against a human the Mech Corps next to the border cannot escape. Not pocketed on Turn 1 but only 2-hex wide mouth that they cannot clear (ZOC-ZOC move eats up their MPs) and Turn 2 they get pocketed. Perhaps the units further west could set up a defense by to allow them a small chance to escape on Turn 2 but than they set themselves up to be pocketed.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 7:17:29 PM

Mynok

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Here's an example of doing the railroad cut operation instead of the full encirclement. I used only AGS units.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 7:21:05 PM

Mynok

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This is post-Soviet move 1 (which I did myself). I did everything possible to extract units and bust the panzers. One did get isolated but I moved it badly as the German. It should have pinned the units near the Rovno mountains.

In the German turn following, I had no trouble isolating everything as well as making excellent progress to the southeast towards Proskurov and to Rovno. Many, many Soviets were isolated in the north and south. (Which makes me suspect my Soviet moves were none too wise and possibly a bit aggressive, but that wouldn't be surprising as I've never played them.)

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 9:38:10 PM

Q-Ball

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That is very interesting, because it uses only the AGS guys. I didn't think it would work because of that RR Line by the Romanian border, but that RR line is closed. This prevents anyone from RR-ing out.

Going south like that does prevent any westward movement. And no reason you couldn't have closed a pocket around KOVEL, and isolated that Mechanized Corps.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 9:41:48 PM

Flaviusx

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Mynok, I think this opening is problematic and opens the Germans up to some unpleasantness in turn 2.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/21/2011 10:24:45 PM

Mynok

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Well, I actually played turn 2, and isolated the entire bunch west of the Tarnopol line, plus some of the units up north. I'll post some shots later. Of course, it is quite possible a good Soviet player could have done far more damage than I did.

My key point was that you do not have to completely isolate the Lvov area to preclude massive Soviet rail evacuation. You simply have to get to 2 hexes SE of Tarnopol.

I can do this better and more solidly. I will attempt it and post some shots this evening.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/22/2011 3:56:30 AM

Mynok

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Ok, here's how it looked after the German turn 1. A nice, wide area of control, everything pinned possible, especially the nasty armor, and nothing in danger of isolation.