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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 1:34:14 PM

Bletchley_Geek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Two things became much clearer for me doing this interesting exercise: pinning Soviets is critical, and regiments are brittle for pocket holding. Controlling space in conjunction with pinning units is the key to holding pockets.

Those two points are key indeed (and that's from the perspective of the Soviet player).

Pinning can be done either directly (getting units adjacent to Soviet units) or indirectly (by converting hexes). Hex conversion is cheaper and almost guarantees that the encircling forces will be getting hasty attacks on them, due to the very high MP costs involving entering enemy hexes for Soviet units.

Regimental/KG breakdowns are very brittle but nonetheless may be able to weather several hasty attacks from MP starved Soviet RDs and TDs. Using a KG/Breakdown to pin directly Soviet units allows the Soviet to launch deliberate attacks - which may well push around your KG as a rag doll.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 1:34:48 PM

ComradeP

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In my game with notenome, the pocket didn't hold, but that was predictable because units routed to an area where there are normally no units and because my mobile units were not employed ideally near Tarnopol. My goal was to keep the units from escaping, and that worked as they were all doomed on turn 2, even more units were doomed than normal because the units trying to break the pocket were in turn pocketed.

However, if you don't also go for Rovno, it's perfectly doable to create a good pocket. I do try to take Rovno because there's no combat unit in it and it secures your northern flank. With the swamps and the hills in the area, the Soviets can put pressure on your northern flank if you don't clear that area (and encircle the forces in the hills too as a bonus).

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Post #: 32

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 1:40:11 PM

Q-Ball

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Klydon's move certainly produces good results, that takes alot of Southwest Front's Mobile Forces off the board. The key questions is it worth the diversion from AGC?

The Infantry are committed, you could "swap" the Frozen PzGp I units and send them north of the Pripyet on turn 2. This swap would cost a bunch of APs of course. Someone would have to play a before/after on AGC to see the effect.

It might be worth the diversion, because AGC isn't going to run into solid resistance until probably at the Dnepr on turn 3 at the earliest.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 1:58:15 PM

Magnum88

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The only divison I break down is 13th Panzer and they are south of Tarnopol and far away from the strong Soviet mobile units and have 2 friendly hexes inbetween to eat up any Soviet MPs. They are the only ones that need to spread out to avoid the Soviet ZOCs from meeting up and breaking the pocket. The closest unit to 2nd Mech Corps (strong Soviet mobile units by the Romanian broder) is 11th Panzer Divison and he is the strongest I have and more than their match (remember they can only do hasty attacks so no more than three units at half CV).

GD Regiment is behind the rest of XXXXVI Panzer Corps and holding back the mobile units inside the pocket with no CV to be a threat.

< Message edited by Magnum88 -- 1/19/2011 2:01:39 PM >

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 2:19:29 PM

Altaris

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In my experience, the SS Mot divs are the best to break down, as their high morale means the smaller units have better movement. I'd break down that one that's west of Brest-Livotsk (Wyking?) and move it south, should accomplish the same goal and be easier to reform on turn 2 or 3 (or leave it broken down as flank protection).

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 2:59:58 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Thought I mentioned that I did not bother moving HQ units as I was in somewhat of a hurry and it was rather pointless for a 1 turn opening.

Makes sense.

quote:

As far as pinning those two mech corps (especially the two tank divisions), you just can't get to them to pull it off. They will get away. I have not tried it yet, but I also wonder how they would do against a infantry division near them (as in attack it and see what happens). I may have to give that a try for giggles.

I always pin them with 6th army infantry. Works just fine.

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Post #: 36

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 7:16:30 PM

Klydon

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I would be interested to see Magnum's Rumanian dash. I played with it on several attempts and could never get it to work unfortunately. (By work, meaning the pocket held so that on turn two, I could attack units in the pocket and force surrender vs having them rout out of the pocket).

Command can be somewhat of an issue. I am still trying to work all that out, but the two commands way overloaded are AGC and AGS, so switching panzer corps around at start does not make a ton of sense quite yet. Some of the things I have been looking at are putting the Rumanian units under German control in the Rumanian GHQ and I am also considering putting 11th Army there as well. For AGC, some measures I have been playing around with is moving at least 1 infantry corps to 4th PG and also filling in some infantry in the other two armies. This should work out even if not making Leningrad a main effort objective from the standpoint that it just means AGN's border goes a bit further south than normal. The Germans typically find themselves very thin on troops south of Lake Ilmen, in front of the Valdi Hills and down to Velikiye Luki.� A lot of this stuff is just ideas I have been kicking around, but have not had time to play around with in game yet. (Sort of the "sounds good in theory, but in practice ??" ).

My current idea is to leave those PG2 units in PG2 and use them along the south side of the swamp. I have played a couple turns of test and so far there have not really been any supply issues, although I have been fairly aggressive in clearing out the swamp and cutting supply lines in there.

One last note in trying to trash all those mech/tank units in the Lvov pocket. I know I have been highlighting a lot about the amount of T-34/KV tanks such and such a formation has, etc and it is important from my view (knocking out a tank division with 150 T-34's means 4-5 less tank brigades later). One other wrinkle I was thinking about today as well is there are an absolute ton of trucks in there as well and that is something that will make a big difference. (I need to spend some time going through and counting trucks in those formations just for giggles).

< Message edited by Klydon -- 1/19/2011 7:21:02 PM >

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 9:15:11 PM

Klydon

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Ok, following up my previous post on the truck comments, here we go:

22nd Mech (around Kovel) 65 KV tanks, 3407 vehicles
4th Mech (east of Lvov and should be nailed by just about any encirclement plan). 113 KV, 300 T34, 4008 vehicles
15 Mech (SE of Lvov). 125 KV, 29 T34 3685 vehicles
8 Mech (bit more to the east of 15 mech). This is not counting 34th tank div, which under my plan gets attacked a couple of times, but gets pushed away from the forming pocket. The other two divisions of the corps have 63 KV and 97 T34 tanks along with 2357 vehicles. 34 tank division has 10 KV tanks and 1770 vehicles.

Totals not including 8 and 15 mech:

178 KV 300 T34, 7415 vehicles (this includes bagging both 22nd mech, which not everyone does in their open and also 4th mech)

Total for my encirclement plans:

366 KV 426 T34 and 13457 vehicles. The vehicle count does not include totals from non-mech, non-tank divisions. (I wonder how many vehicles the Germans will actually capture and use).

Difference:

188 KV, 126 T34, and 6042 vehicles.

Just for some other info purposes: The two mech corps further east have something like 10 KV/T34 tanks between all their units. 16 Mech corps down by Stanislav (at least the two tank divisions as no plan will get the mech division sitting in the rough that I am aware of) have a grand total of 3 KV and 4 T34 tanks and 1610 vehicles between them.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 10:38:22 PM

Q-Ball

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How did you get that unit off the Rough, Klydon? It takes something like 3-4 Divisions on Deliberate. That unit is a b***h.

Although, do you really NEED to get it off the Rough in your plan, since you blew away all the units north of it anyway?

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 10:46:09 PM

CharonJr

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This was my move for AGS on turn 1 vs. the AI for my current AAR:

Especially the weak link in the north would have most likely been penetrated by a human with all this Soviet tanks around. I am not sure if I could have done anything to strengthen this point.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/19/2011 10:46:45 PM

Zebedee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I would be interested to see Magnum's Rumanian dash. I played with it on several attempts and could never get it to work unfortunately. (By work, meaning the pocket held so that on turn two, I could attack units in the pocket and force surrender vs having them rout out of the pocket).

I've yet to see the AI break an encirclement which has a divisional+ wide lane down to Tarnopol and to the Romanian border. In fact, you can get a division down to the border and into supply and as far as I can tell, the Soviets just don't have the MPs to do much of anything which makes it problematic for a human player too - 16th or 17th panzer is more than capable of doing it. Gamey, meh, perhaps but not anywhere as like as gamey as the whole Lvov salient taking up residence behind a riverline further east on turn 2. Trying to hold the pocket with troops would be silly as the SU does have sufficient movement points to cut off isolated or poorly positioned units north of Tarnopol.

re. your encirclement. If you're pulling that much from AGC, you may as well try for a much bigger encirclement on the AGC/AGS boundary. Leastways you've then got the armoured force to have some fun driving east quickly. Course, it weakens AGN ultimately (assuming you're trying for the Minsk encirclement in AGC) but better to go big and bold than fiddle about with half-measures all over.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 12:02:59 AM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

I've yet to see the AI break an encirclement which has a divisional+ wide lane down to Tarnopol and to the Romanian border. In fact, you can get a division down to the border and into supply and as far as I can tell, the Soviets just don't have the MPs to do much of anything which makes it problematic for a human player too - 16th or 17th panzer is more than capable of doing it. Gamey, meh, perhaps but not anywhere as like as gamey as the whole Lvov salient taking up residence behind a riverline further east on turn 2. Trying to hold the pocket with troops would be silly as the SU does have sufficient movement points to cut off isolated or poorly positioned units north of Tarnopol.

re. your encirclement. If you're pulling that much from AGC, you may as well try for a much bigger encirclement on the AGC/AGS boundary. Leastways you've then got the armoured force to have some fun driving east quickly. Course, it weakens AGN ultimately (assuming you're trying for the Minsk encirclement in AGC) but better to go big and bold than fiddle about with half-measures all over.

I know the "dash for the border" works against the AI, but I have run several tests with both players on "human" and despite everything I have tried, I can break the encirclement. I figure I am missing something, but I have not seen a AAR yet that used that that I could not break and I was wondering what Magnum had cooking. One of the things on my opening move was I tried to be careful and "player proof" it so that it was a legit opening vs either AI or another player.

The diversion from AGC is not small, but it isn't the entire PG2 either. At least 3 of those non motorized divisions would be helping anyway, so my total diversion is 3 panzer/motorised infantry divisions, 1 motorized infantry regiment and 3 infantry divisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

How did you get that unit off the Rough, Klydon? It takes something like 3-4 Divisions on Deliberate. That unit is a b***h.

Although, do you really NEED to get it off the Rough in your plan, since you blew away all the units north of it anyway?

Yes, 3 division deliberate attack. I have run this opening 8-9 times now testing it and have not gotten a "hold" on that yet. If I was on the ball better, I would probably reserve some ground support for that particular attack, but I have been running 110% air (that is to say no ground support at all) for the first turn.

The big reason I get rid of that sucker is rough in this game means just that for any attacking units. Even starving, that unit is not easy to kick out of there because of the terrain. Also by getting rid of it, it frees up the big stack of infantry to its west to move further east and south and not be screwed by the ZOC.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 12:07:17 AM

Ketza

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

This was my move for AGS on turn 1 vs. the AI for my current AAR:

Especially the weak link in the north would have most likely been penetrated by a human with all this Soviet tanks around. I am not sure if I could have done anything to strengthen this point.

I am thinking a human would have a field day with that set up. It is however a very nice pocket and if you practiced it a few times you might execute it a little better and shore up the edges against breakins and breakouts.

Most of my AI games have been to practice and get to know the mechanics for future PBEM. I tend to form pockets keeping in mind all the devious ways a human could break them.

This thread has provided some pretty valuable information but it also has me second guessing my own localized AGS strategy.

It is quite possible to get to the Romanian border and make some decent sized pockets that are virtually unbreakable but what does one really gain from that if some juicy armored divisions can get away. The romanians getting lose one turn early does not seem to be a front breaker.

If you manage to make a large pocket in the center and grab a few more armored divisions what can get railed away down south that you would have grabbed with a Romanian lunge?

I love this game.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 1:08:51 AM

Zebedee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I know the "dash for the border" works against the AI, but I have run several tests with both players on "human" and despite everything I have tried, I can break the encirclement. I figure I am missing something, but I have not seen a AAR yet that used that that I could not break and I was wondering what Magnum had cooking. One of the things on my opening move was I tried to be careful and "player proof" it so that it was a legit opening vs either AI or another player.

The diversion from AGC is not small, but it isn't the entire PG2 either. At least 3 of those non motorized divisions would be helping anyway, so my total diversion is 3 panzer/motorised infantry divisions, 1 motorized infantry regiment and 3 infantry divisions.

The idea isn't to try to hold the encirclement turn 1 in the south, it's to cut the rail access of the Lvov salient to set up the big encirclement turn 2. That's why there's little point trying to hold the thing down turn 1 unless you're willing to commit a major effort to it which lets more Sovjets elsewhere get away. If it helps legitimise it for you, think of it as an early precursor to what the Soviet cavalry divisions will be doing to you come winter - trashing rear areas, cutting supply lines and poking about in airfields and headquarter areas before up and running.

Think pulling the mobile forces down is fair enough, if the south is your priority, as AGS will need that help sooner or later. Depends a lot on what you think the priorities are and whether you can reach a suitable stop line for AGS quickly enough to pull off the big autumn 41 encirclements by swinging them up back north. Punch don't tickle though or you'll have not enough strength in either place to smash through the Soviet lines when they stiffen.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 2:17:31 AM

randallw

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On turn 1 the Sov side has a penalty on MPs; those Germans on the eastern side of encirclement can be moved up to, but are there enough MPs for the Soviet side to launch deliberate attacks? I wouldn't expect those Germans to be budged with anything less than multiple divisions on deliberate.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 2:33:17 AM

notenome

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you can hold pockets with regiments, just set percent required to fly at the end of your turn to 10% and ground support to 200%, pretty much any soviet attack will get splashed. As for a drive to Romania being gamey, not at all. The original AGS plan was for Kleist to trap the Soviets against the Carpathians, and the Romanians were to begin to move after the encirclement had been completed. This took two weeks due to the hard fighting encountered by AGS, so the troops experienced a small slitzkrieg. To drive to the Romanian border on turn 1 is simply to execute the orignial plan better than historically. Of course any pocket in the south will have trouble holding due to the poor disposition/frozen state of most AGS mobile forces, thus tempting many players to at least borrow part of Guderian's assets.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 3:44:11 AM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

quote:

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

This was my move for AGS on turn 1 vs. the AI for my current AAR:

Especially the weak link in the north would have most likely been penetrated by a human with all this Soviet tanks around. I am not sure if I could have done anything to strengthen this point.

I am thinking a human would have a field day with that set up. It is however a very nice pocket and if you practiced it a few times you might execute it a little better and shore up the edges against breakins and breakouts.

Most of my AI games have been to practice and get to know the mechanics for future PBEM. I tend to form pockets keeping in mind all the devious ways a human could break them.

This thread has provided some pretty valuable information but it also has me second guessing my own localized AGS strategy.

It is quite possible to get to the Romanian border and make some decent sized pockets that are virtually unbreakable but what does one really gain from that if some juicy armored divisions can get away. The romanians getting lose one turn early does not seem to be a front breaker.

If you manage to make a large pocket in the center and grab a few more armored divisions what can get railed away down south that you would have grabbed with a Romanian lunge?

I love this game.

Indeed. Great fun.

That's actually a very nice pocket. I'd like to see attempts to break it with the major Soviet offensive power pinned by the 6th army (a critical point in any Rumanian gambit).

I'm going to try something with just AGS armor and see how it works. Will post results.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 5:29:22 PM

CharonJr

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I just fooled around a bit with the t1 end of turn save and I was unable to pry open the pocket in 3 attempts. It looks like the pocket is more secure than I thought, even against a human.

The armor in the north has a unmodified CV of 200+, no way for the fairly weak in combination with low MP Soviets to break this one.

The weakest spot is the mot brigade to the south of Tarnopol, but even there the Soviets face a CV of 40+ and while I have been able to force them to retreat I lacked the MPs to open the pocket.

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Post #: 48

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 5:38:02 PM

Altaris

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It's definitely do-able to create this pocket, though I think you have to bring down at least one motorized and one panzer division from AGC to make it inpenetrable. I've done this on several testing runs, and it works like a charm. Takes 2-3 turns to clean up the pocket, but at least you get everything moving eastward and take out a sizeable chunk of the Russian southern forces with it. Definitely the best move on turn 1 for AGS, IMO.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 6:46:58 PM

ComradeP

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CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 6:56:56 PM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

Rovno is tough with the swamp to the north and that rough to the south. You can't get there with infantry, so the motorized stuff has to do the heavy lifting.

Are you looking to capture it or trying to get the units around there surrounded? I am assuming you are making an effort here in order to get on the road to Kiev that much faster? It would be a lot of armor to get there and in the mean time, all that Soviet mass is open to get away to fight another day.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:06:17 PM

ComradeP

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As I said: there's no combat unit there at the start of the scenario, so taking it on turn 1 is your best bet at taking it early. It also makes it much more difficult for the Soviets to establish their first line on the minor river just east of Rovno. In my game with notenome, every Soviet unit in the AGS area west of a line running from Rovno to the Romanian border was screwed.

If you give the Soviets time to move units into the swamps or Rovno, it's unlikely you'll capture the area before turn 3-4. It's all about protecting your own flanks, whilst turning those of the enemy.

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Post #: 52

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:12:09 PM

Altaris

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Well I took Rovno and secured the pocket between Poland and Romania on Turn 1, so both missions accomplished :D

Did have to take a little from AGC to do this, but nothing I couldn't afford to take.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:22:01 PM

CharonJr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

CharonJr: are you sure the pocket can't be broken 2 hexes north of Tarnopol? The Rifle division needs to move 1 hex west and I'm guessing that most of the time the Soviets will have a unit that can move a single hex into enemy terrain and one hex through friendly terrain.

I remain convinced that for a truly successful pocket/opening move in the AGS area, you need Rovno.

Will take a look at it, I only focused on breaking open the pocket by force, but you are right that it may be broken by simple movement. Will try again and tell you the results.

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Post #: 54

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:35:28 PM

CharonJr

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Yes, you were right, the 2 Soviet infantry divisions are able to make contact and open the pocket there. The Soviets will still be unable to get their forces out, but this will at least set back clearing the pocket by 1 turn and involve heavier fights.

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Post #: 55

RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:55:15 PM

Mynok

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I tested this last night and as long as you convert the rail junction hexes south of Tarnopol, they Soviets cannot rail anything out.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 7:58:10 PM

Flaviusx

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Pretty sure that pocket can be reopened. Sov can march into the two hexes north of the motorized division north of Tarnopol. That's the weak spot. Otherwise, the pocket is solid.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 8:16:36 PM

Magnum88

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This is the set-up I try to get to in when driving to the Romanian border. I put it on Soviet Turn 1 and FoW off to see all the pertinent information. I had not moved some infantry up north that would fill some holes yet but the southern half is the area to scrutinize. The only regiments are GD north of Tarnopol holding the pocket in and the panzer division south of Tarnopol. GD is under no threat inside the pocket but is contesting ZOC if the pocket tries to move out. The other regiments are too far away from any strong enemies with 1-3 friendly hexes protecting them. Breaking the pocket would require moving through 2 ZOC and the Soviets do not have enough MPs to do this.

The gap just north of the southern most panzers could possibly be bridged but the Soviet motorized divison would have to have a morale of 56+ to make it the two enemy hexes required and a pocketed unit would have to be in position to get into the hex SW of the southern panzer regiment. Possible but not likely and the regiment could be moved 1 hex east to prevent this (ZOC-ZOC move for last hex--at least 8 MPs just for that).

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< Message edited by Magnum88 -- 1/20/2011 8:26:50 PM >

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 11:11:50 PM

Mynok

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Why are all those hexes in the pocket but outside of Soviet ZOCs showing as under German control now?

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves - 1/20/2011 11:24:15 PM

Q-Ball

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How about this move? Note that on this screenshot, I haven't moved any PANZERS yet, just used Infantry to clear lanes.

In this shot, though I haven't isolated a whole lot of units, there are many that cannot move more than 1 hex due to ZOCs, and will probably die in a week or two. This includes 4 more Inf/Mtn division, and 2 big Tank Divisions, in addition to the 2 large Tank Div that were isolated.

A key move I think it getting a 17th Army Inf unit adjacent to the Moutains in the south; this cuts-off several units.

I'll move the Panzers and post another shot.

Units in YELLOW are ones that can't move much, and are probably doomed.