Matrix Games Forums

Command Ops gets a Massive Update!Lost Battles AAR: Smolensk 41War in the East: Lost Battles is here!Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! Let's Play videoLost Battles Scenario Manual excerpts available!A sneak peek from Allied Corps!Harpoon 3 ANWs Free Ultimate Update!All good Deals always come in threesDistant Worlds: Shadows Approaches!Lost Battles AAR: Moscow 41		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: The weather thing

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: The weather thing Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 5:15:42 AM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3254
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4


quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

AFAIK, the most experienced player from tester team is merely able to get a historical result and casualty number in 41 winter, even with hindsight and expert planning.

Average Axis player usually collapse 9 out of 10 times.


See Above: I agree 100% Jay, and that should be a “red flag” to the designers as well. If it takes the best of the best to get close to historical results as the game is designed now as the Germans, while I have seen a report that a Soviet player are reached Berlin by 43, then something is not right. I have written of this in my own thread, “Casualties seem off......”

German casualties appear too loses are too high in winter, and Russian prisoners are too low in summer 41. After the initial shock of the first month, I'll bet the cases of frostbit were way down, reason, the Germans had learned how to cope with the weather, and they were wearing the nice padded jackets and boots from dead Russians, and the lines had stabilized in most places by mid January to early February 42. Most of the frostbit cases were caused by from having to fight in the open, once the lines had stabilized, this was not case. The Germans would hole up in dugouts or villages in hedgehog (360 degree defense), and would only come out to fight if needed, rotating out LP/OPs. The first month brutal, maybe some of January, I agree 100%...after that I think personnel loses due to blizzard too high for the Germans. There should be some bonus if Germans are able to start and end a turn in levels of fortifications.

As for Soviet prisoners, I have taken 2 million prior to the 25th turn, the start of the blizzard, with a total of 3.37 million total Russian casualties. This is still not close to historical results. I also think the artillery loses may be a bit too high for all sides. Unless you are getting over run, or retreating, artillery tube loses should be very low, it is not like either side have very good means of firing counter battery fires.

If we are going to have a historical "simulation", then it should have close to historical results given reasonable play. All the results above are against the AI, I cannot imagine how hard it would be to get historical results against a human Soviet player, I would thing next to impossible, making a PBEM game a forgone conclusion, while is a sad state of affairs for me.

Winter 41 as it is right now in the game, IS used as the primary balancing agent in the game. It allows the Soviets to have a chance, and prior to the winter of 41 the (in game) Soviets do not have a chance, and cannot even think about attacking the Germans, when a closer look the historical record shows the Soviets fought much harder and inflicted very heavy losses on the Germans prior to the 41-42 Winter battles. The latest historical research by Dr. Stahel and COL (Ret) Glantz, show that it was not winter that broke the back of the German army, but the summer battles around Smolensk. According to both their independent research (David Stahel book “Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East”, 2009 and David Glantz's newest book “Barbarossa Derailed: The battle of Smolensk 10 July – 10 September 1941”), the heavy casualties the Germans suffered during the summer battles around Smolensk were the primary reason for the failure of Barbarossa not winter. I agree the winter was bad, very bad, but it was just icing on the cake of a failure to plan, taking into account the actual size and competency of the Soviet Army and leadership, and it's willingness to suffer huge loses to stop the Germans.

Bottom-line if you play the Germans and do exactly what they did in 41, fighting all the way to the suburbs of Moscow, till the Soviet winter counter offensive hit, then you should see comparable loses in the game, right now you do not, you see huge German loses in winter, fewer Soviet prisoners taken in summer, and that is not historical.

I hope this post does not offend, but I think an honest discussion of the the above issues needs to take place.



I agree trying to duplicate a real battle of smolensk or a real battle of any type in 41 is not going to happen. The germans just steam roll you. Maybe it is because of the week long turns make it hard for a russian player to be able actively react the same way that was done historically. Or maybe it is just that the best of the best can perform these real life counter attacks. I'm talking about in PBEM games here.

(in reply to Zemke_4)
Post #: 61
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 7:19:39 AM   
Zemke_4


Posts: 379
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

As far as the original plan being thrown off by the battle around Smolensk, I call BS on that.


I am only referencing two of the worlds best modern scholars on the Eastern front.


_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 62
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 7:52:46 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1926
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		For the accuracy of the game's casualty counts to be compared to history, doesn't that require both sides in the game to play it like actual history?  For millions of Soviets to be captured requires mass pockets, which means lots of units staying in place instead of trying to flee a not yet close encirclement.

Back to the weather thing.....for the Soviet players who have reached a time period beyond the 1941-1942 blizzard, does it seem like your units had some odd changes to your CVs?  For me it seems like a few of my divisions had around a 8-10 CV in the blizzard, then they dropped to about a 4-6 when the spring arrived, even though they simply sat in the rear during the weather transition.  ( Perhaps they changed to a smaller TOE on me and I didn't notice )

(in reply to Zemke_4)
Post #: 63
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 9:05:53 AM   
Zemke_4


Posts: 379
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Using the AI as a baseline, even with huge pockets, it is next to impossible to get historical results. I encircled 50+ divisions in one turn, so huge encirclements are very possible, but the amount captured is not as high as you would expect. Maybe the numbers reported in the war are off, or the game does not take into account all the troops that were counted.

My theory is, the designers have not factored in all the support troops at Corp, Army and Front so the numbers you capture will never equal historical numbers. If this is the case then we have no problem, as those troops are abstacted in the game anyway, and would not affect the generation of more combat power.

A human player is never going to "let" himself get encircled, he is not going to play as stupid as Stalin, and neither does the AI, it tries hard to not get encircled and will start to fall back if it thinks it is about to. But, that said in the opening turns of the game, it is next to impossible for the Soviets to do more than run and hope. If the German player wants em', he will get em.

I would like to see a "historical" game where one player playes both sides and makes the same moves roughly that were done. In other words force a historical encirclements with as close as you can come to the same forces encircled. I have no doubt the game is accurate when it comes to historical rates of advance and time. It is the German loses of combat power in winter and maybe Russian captured seem lower than historical.

_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 64
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 9:59:33 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

If it takes the best of the best to get close to historical results


The other testers will assure you that I am far from "the best of the best", I maybe have a more analytical approach than some of the others, and I think I experienced more blizzards than any of the others using the later versions of the code that were closer and closer to release code.

The bottom line is that the game is 6 weeks old, and every player is learning the game, and as in real life the attackers are finding it tough going against the defenders, who appear to have the "easy" option of trading space for time and thus reducing their losses. Also, the First Winter is producing almost as much shock to the system as it did to the historical troops - just be grateful you will never have to go through what they went through historically!

The testers are still learning the game, but I was able to apply 3 months of experience to develop an approach to the First Winter that allowed me to come out the other side in reasonable shape - to the point that apart from the first test, that was my "baptism of snow" the Axis started the 1942 campaign stronger than the historical benchmark, indeed in my PBEM test with Trey I had nearly 2,000 more tanks than I should have done, because they managed to stay in winter quarters (not in Berlin!) for most of the blizzard turns. (NB that won't happen now because attrition rates were increased as a result of the test!)

What none of the PBEM AARs have shown yet, is just how well the Axis can recover in the March snow turns.

In broad terms here is what I experienced in my tests Compared to the Historical Benchmarks>

Army Group North: Historically was pushed back 30-60 miles (3-6 hexes)

In tests I was able to use Linebacker to dig 2 rows of level 4 entrenchments from Leningrad to Kalinnin. The AI would take 2-3 turns to break the first line but the wooded terrain meant they could not always advance after combat. Over the whole front I would lose about 6 hexes and take back 1 or 2 during the snow turns, for an average net loss of 4 hexes, well within the bounds of historical.

Army Group Centre: Historically was pushed back 100-120 miles (10-12 hexes)

As this area had the highest density of troops from the attacks and defence of Moscow, a lot depended on whether I could anchor the defence on holding 1 hex of Moscow, but even if I held the line for 4 turns, the Soviets could "Avalanche" attack and get to Rzhev (12 hexes) in 12 turns, but holding the Panzers in Winter quarters in Rhzev, Vyazma and Kaluga, meant in the March Counter attacks I could take back 2-3 hexes, so the net loss was 9-10 hexes.

Army Group Centre: Historically was pushed back 30-60 miles.

Due to the terrain, this sector was where I had the greatest difficulty in matching the historical results. The key to getting close, is again the March counter attacks. Using Winter quarters in Kursk Kharkov, Stalino etc. I was able to keep the panzers safe and warm, and in the Field Marshal Noob AAR (In the AAR section) I managed to get back 8-10 hexes after being pushed back 12-15 hexes and pocket 40+ units as part of the process.

The ability of the Axis to inflict losses on the SU in the first year is a separate issue, but my analysis of the PBEM AARS to date is that inexperienced Axis players are able to recreate the early pockets quite well, sometimes they can recreate the turn 8-12 pockets at Kiev etc., but they are really struggling to recreate the Typhoon/Vyazma pockets around turns 15-17.

Once Axis players get more experienced, I think, like me, they will start using "HQ Buildup" much more. I hardly see the use of this mentioned in any of the AARs. With HQ Build up, your Panzers have as many MPs as they have on the first turn of Barbarossa, and 100% supplies and ammunition. With that you can do a lot of damage. By using it in PBEM games, I have captured Rostov and one hex of Moscow before the Blizzards arrive. If I had used it sooner and more often, I know I could have created even more pockets.

In a year's time, once the Axis players have gained more experience, the boot will be on the other foot, and the soviet players will be complaining that the Axis are OP.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/17/2011 10:38:30 AM >

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 65
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:25:58 AM   
Zemke_4


Posts: 379
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Has there been a game tested played from both sides by a single player to try and match the what was done historically? If so, were the results close, results as in prisoners taken, Germans winter loses, rates of advance, limits of advance.

I am sure there are ways to mitigate losses, I am doing similar as Germans, moving all Pz/Mot into cites or even back to Germany. What happens if you leave the Pz Div out in the "cold" as most were, along with the infantry divisions, what are is the number of Soviet prisoners if the same Armies are encircled and captured. I would think if the engine is accurate, then the results should be close to historical. If a test like this has been run, and the results are very close to historical, then we got no issues, if not then perhaps there may be a problem.

Again I have had no problem with getting large pockets against the AI, and matching historical advance rates or limits of advance.

Maybe a realism option in the game options, that would turn on "interference" from Hitler or Stalin. Both made errors that cost them dearly, Stalin early in not allowing retreats, and ordering mass attacks, and Hitler in not allow retreats and holding fortress Cities.

_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 66
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:45:51 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Here is the Casualty List from my PBEM Blizzard test with Trey. By turn 34 it shows the Axis about 300k short on the historical captured number for the first 12 months, but this is before my March counter offensive in which I would have hoped to replicate some of of what I achieved in my AI tests, so I don't think the numbers are that far out. Trey had been testing at least a year longer than me, but he had not played the Sovs much, and a couple of mistakes cost him Leningrad and the Crimea.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Zemke_4)
Post #: 67
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:47:20 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		The turn 34 Frontlines: Sorry I haven't got better Screen Shots, but the Old save files are gone:
North:






Attachment (1)

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 68
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:48:09 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Centre:






Attachment (1)

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 69
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:48:53 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		South:





Attachment (1)

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 70
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 10:57:04 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		So, in 9 turns of Blizzard Trey pushed me back 5 hexes from Moscow and 6 from Rostov. He was starting to get some momentum, and I would probably have lost another 3 hexes over the whole front, but I felt I was in pretty good shape for the 3 snow Turns, and would have expected to get 2-3 back, so I think you are seeing the 1942 Campaign Start Lines.

Not a single Fortified Zone to be seen.

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 71
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 11:16:11 AM   
jay102

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think territory is not the key. It's the army strength comparison after first winter. Winter averagely costs Wehrmacht more than 1,000,000 men and more than 20 morale loss. Given Russian player usually suffering much less casualty in 41 summer, I doubt the Wehrmacht would have the strength in 42 summer to launch any meaningful strategical offensive.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 72
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 11:32:41 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Turn 34 OOB. The Axis already have more men than they start the 1942 campaign with (3,013,0936). 13 turns of Mud with very little combat would have seen this increase. As noted previously the AFV numbers are too high - historically we think they had no more than 700 runners at this date.

Joel has asked to see Turn53 OOBs, to determine if the Axis numbers are falling too far behind the historical curve - we haven't seen many yet.








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/17/2011 11:35:09 AM >

(in reply to jay102)
Post #: 73
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 11:46:39 AM   
Paul McNeely

 

Posts: 607
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I can't see how the winter can cost you 1,000,000 men.  The Soviets will suffer 1:1 casualties or more when attacking german troops, worse when dug in.  I lost 200,000 to 60,000 men KIA in the month of January.  The number of disabled men on the axis side stands at 1.1 million but they come back and you have all the snow, and mud time to prepare for the summer.

Here are my turn 34 results to compare to Big Anorak's (playing Soviet against AI):
5/2/42 STAVKA

Official War Records Office
Soviet Losses to date:

Men Killed: 907 333
Men Captured: 547 568
Men Disabled: 792 505
Guns Lost: 34 054
AFVs Lost: 12 292

Fighters: 2
Fighter Bombers: 8 403
Tactical Bombers: 1 156
Level Bombers: 2 914
Recon: 558
Transports: 568

Flak Losses: 1 590
Operational Losses: 5 251
Total Aircraft Losses: 13 601

Estimated Axis Losses (from NKVD and KGB sources):

Men Killed: 369 280
Men Captured: 156 576
Men Disabled: 1 179 510
Guns Lost: 15 413
AFVs Lost: 3 009

Fighters: 1 101
Fighter Bombers: 145
Night Fighters: 1
Tactical Bombers: 490
Level Bombers: 1 328
Recon: 297
Transports: 262

Flak Losses: 749
Operational Losses: 1 963
Total Aircraft Losses: 3 624

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 74
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 1:51:25 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Probably shouldn't say this in an 'open' thread but HQ buildup is by far what most worries me in my Soviet PBEM game.

(in reply to Paul McNeely)
Post #: 75
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 1:53:49 PM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		If Gary taught GAIA to use it I'd be very worried!

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 76
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 2:15:01 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1695
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster


quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If the game is supposed to be a simulation then why can't we simulate a 'what if' situation where the Germans came prepared for winter.


Cos it's a historical simulation. The German Order of Battle is set.

Let the murderers freeze in their foxholes.

SO ELOQUENT I would suspect your hobby is kicking sleeping dogs. You will have to forgive me but I find such comments a bit stupid.
This is a historical simulation and some what ifs could add some flavor.

Madgamer2


I'm sorry that I upset you.

This is after all a historical simulation of the Eastern Front.

The German's froze in the foxholes with no winter clothing.

That is a historical fact.

If you wanna play a modded game with first winter modifications then feel free.

For some people to complain about the stock games simulation of how the first winter affected the Germans in a stock game is a little strange.

Take my comment with a pinch of salt.

I realised I was being flippant but thought you Kraut Lovers would realise I was only messing.

Best regards


If we're going to say this is a completely historical simulation take away the soviets ability to create their own military and use ONLY the toe that we can dig up. We as players can't have it both ways. :) It's just too hypocritical to say it's a historical simulation only from one side of the coin.




IIRC the Russians reorganised their military so many times it was too difficult for the game designers to research.

So they gave us the ability to build new units and reorganise ourselves.

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 77
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 3:15:59 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

This all started over a weather post, wow!


WHAT HAVE i DONE?........I did not mean to start a debate over what should and should not be hard coded. It has however brought on an interesting discussion that has for the most part been kept civil, and produced many points to ponder. As for me ...well I will play it on easy like other difficult Strategic level games and use the editor to create something I can enjoy and to Heck with history. Had some other person brought up a small innocent point like I did and I read the post BEFORE I bought the game I would have not done so but very reluctantly as like many of you I share a passion for the Pacific war and the invasion of Russia. I like to ponder what would have happened if a normal winter happened or even a late winter, or even a delayed lighter winter in 41? They could have given a different die roll. I find it odd the two worst winters in pre-21st. century Russia were 1941 and 1812.

regards to all as I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest, but if not me someone else would have.

Madgamer2


_____________________________

If your not part of the solution
You are part of the problem

(in reply to Zemke_4)
Post #: 78
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 4:51:19 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1695
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I have the BBC's World AT WAR series on the television

It said the Generals wanted to stop for Winter but Hitler would have none of it.

2 million Moscow Civilians left, even Lenin's coffin!

Zhukov brought in 40 Siberian winter trained divisions for defence of Moscow.

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 79
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 5:13:36 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2450
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Thats not cool.
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.


My opinion as well. Even level 4 forts, which take ages to build, don't provide any protection. I don't think it's actually the combat modifiers that hurt, since these can be somewhat compensated for, but the attrition. Not to mention the long term experience loss.

IMO one should at least institute another check for fort levels like the current check for towns. Could even be the identical check, with unit limits if necessary.


As a matter of fact it works, but you have to do it right (for tips, RTFM (or at least the section on First Winter Blizzard) at least three times; I was still finding little gems buried in the text on the third time through).

Now forts will help protect you from attacks by hordes of Russians, but that is not what is killing the Germans (at least at first). First rule if you are caught in a blizzard: get to shelter. Per TFM you can shelter from the blizzards in towns (one unit sometimes) and urban (two or three units all the time).

So, during the Mud and Snow, pull all of your mobile troops back to urban hexes as near to the front as you please. Then look to where you can form the best line by connecting town and urban hexes; go there and start digging. Leave gaps if you can dig in on a town one our two hexes behind your first stop line. Use mountain troops to cover gaps between towns in the stop line; NEVER waste a mountain unit by putting it in a town. Do NOT stack except mobile units in urban hexas. Try to get as much of your army as possible into some sort of shelter before the blizzard hits. Leave a screen (two hex gaps) along the original front line to keep the Russians away from your first stop line during Mud and Snow turns. Have your screen run like hell as soon as the blizzard hits (use RAIL ALWAYS if you can during Mud, Snow or especially Blizzard to perserve your trucks (and NEVER move mobile troops except by rail unless you are really, really desperate)). Also pull all of your minor allies (except the Finns of course) and stick all of them in urban hexes as far from the front as possible because they are useless the first winter EXCEPT the mountain troops which will fare better than you German infantry..

With a little luck this will hold you to about a half-million frostbite casualties with none in the mobile troops by January. Then it gets nasty as your line begins to crack from major Russian attacks but it's a lot better than your army disintegrating in December. I had 1.2 million disabled by April (most in the fighting in late Jan and Feb when I had to fight in the open) and that seems to be about as good as it gets.



I'd like to see forts of 3+ provide relief from the effects of the cold as well. This would reward a german player who goes on the defensive (ahistorically) and builds up defenses. No i'm not the german player in my pbem games. But i agree there is an issue where players need to have the ability to do things their way. If they build forts and prepare for winter they should not get beat down like dogs.



I agree completely. After considering a post by ITKOTW above, it would seem that even small improvements like overhead cover to entrenchments would offer considerable protection from the cold (note his reference to igloos). I am not sure what the physical difference is between a level X and level X+1 fort, but certainly by levels 3 and 4 it should provide some protection against the elements as well as hostile fire

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 80
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 6:36:03 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

So, in 9 turns of Blizzard Trey pushed me back 5 hexes from Moscow and 6 from Rostov. He was starting to get some momentum, and I would probably have lost another 3 hexes over the whole front, but I felt I was in pretty good shape for the 3 snow Turns, and would have expected to get 2-3 back, so I think you are seeing the 1942 Campaign Start Lines.

Not a single Fortified Zone to be seen.


So you are in level 3-4 forts, with an extremely well built up supply net, (I think the Germans took well into 42 to get that kind of coverage), probably fairly good strenght units since you've been digging in for a while, and still have historical losses?

Sorry, that doesn't compute. If one wants to argue historical baselines, your supply net should be much worse, or the Axis rail penalty should be higher, but dug in and fully supplied German units shouldn't be suffering the same as historically attrited German units in the open and at the end of a very long and severely overloaded supply lines.

As stated, it's obvious that the Winter 41 has been chosen as the big balancing tool, and this is IMO not a good choice considering the timeframe and scope of the game.

Balancing for the Axis should show their real world constraints, production and logistics, for 41 especially logistics. The base logistics system is IMO excellent and provides plenty of levers via f.e. MP per repair rail, Axis Raily Supply modifier, vehicle pool etc.

Maybe Winter 41 was chosen because it's easier to test, but it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 81
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 6:37:12 PM   
Zemke_4


Posts: 379
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		It would seem to be just common sense that forts or improved positions of any kind would lessen the effects of the cold. How could they not, and from all accounts did, and as someone said in a post somewhere, the German units that were dug in were always able to beat back Soviet attacks in 41-42, until they were turned out of their positions and had to retreat. This is not reflected in the game. Winter comes, it does not matter one bit how well dug in the Germans are, they are going DOWN sooner or later, because it seems the blizzard just keeps sucking combat power out of the unit and it becomes so weak it cannot stand. Open ground no shelter, yes troops without cold weather clothing would suffer terriblely, but not a level three fort, after killing and stripping the piles of dead in front of my MG positions and taking the boots and jackets off the dead....just not buying that.


_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 82
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 7:27:14 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3254
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

If it takes the best of the best to get close to historical results



What none of the PBEM AARs have shown yet, is just how well the Axis can recover in the March snow turns.


Yea you're right that's why ara and i will be posting after our winter to see how it plays out. I'm interested to see how it goes. we're hoping to have winter done tonight or tomorrow. Surprisingly my russian turns are now 2-3 hours with all the attacks i have to coordinate. :)

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 83
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 7:29:21 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3254
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak



Joel has asked to see Turn53 OOBs, to determine if the Axis numbers are falling too far behind the historical curve - we haven't seen many yet.




Cool i'll make sure we keep good screenies of those turns for you guys.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 84
RE: The weather thing - 1/17/2011 8:45:10 PM   
EisenHammer


Posts: 401
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		I'll say one thing and that is the more I played the game the better I'm getting at it.
With that said, I still think digging in should offer some protection from the winter weather. But its also good to see that with some practice you can survive the first winter in Russia.
And I'm sure 2By3games will be making some changes to it later on.

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 85
RE: The weather thing - 1/18/2011 7:41:35 AM   
Zemke_4


Posts: 379
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		BigA how in the heck did you get that much rail converted, I can hardly get a lines long enough to supply most of the front, but I have never been able to have all my rear area converted, not even close. What am I missing now?

_____________________________

"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
"Pass the salt, please"

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 86
RE: The weather thing - 1/18/2011 9:24:50 AM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4657
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		At Zemke_4: In this test I probably planned my rail conversion more than in previous tests, as I realised the importance of having railheads at key locations, to keep rebuilding battered units back up to front line strength. I also built North-South spur lines to help move reinforcements to threatened sectors. The bulk of the conversion was done by the auto-repair CBs.

_____________________________

(old version)It's only a game
(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to Zemke_4)
Post #: 87
RE: The weather thing - 1/19/2011 9:52:37 PM   
Balou


Posts: 415
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		In the OOB, the SU has only 1200 AC left by turn 34. How did you do that? AF bombing during blizzards ? When I compare these AC figures to the losses I inflicted to the SU-AI (actually turn 31, Axis-GC vs AI, difficulty normal), I seem to be far behind.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 88
RE: The weather thing - 1/20/2011 9:55:11 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		IMHO, the problem with the first winter is not that the Germans are too weakened by the blizzard rules, per se, but that the Soviets aren't penalized enough. This is not just semantics; not every Soviet unit was winter prepared like the Siberian reinforcements. Perhaps this could be implemented by blizzard readiness penalties on units raised after war broke out, or based on some other criteria.

How many frostbite casualties did the Soviets have during the first winter? They weren't supermen.

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 89
RE: The weather thing - 1/20/2011 11:58:59 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

No..but they had warm clothing

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 90
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: The weather thing Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.227