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The weather thing - 1/16/2011 2:07:57 AM   
madgamer2

 

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Will it be possible to use the editor to change the rules concerning German 41 severe weather rules to allow them to be better prepared.

Madgamer2

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RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 3:13:47 AM   
joey


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I do not believe so. I think it is hard coded.

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Post #: 2
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 3:53:10 AM   
CarnageINC


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Yep, its hard coded, I asked earlier about it.  Germans just have to weather the red storm.

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Post #: 3
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 4:27:27 AM   
Dr. Foo


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It would be nice. War in Europe has a nice feature called Sever Weather Equipment you can build at a cost of a ton of production points. It will cost you units you could have built but the S.W.E. negates the mandatory step loss during severe weather. Winter combat and movement penalties still apply.

I wish something like that could be Modded it could cost a ton of AP's making it something you have to prepare for and maybe not use AP's to do somethings you would like. If the game is supposed to be a simulation then why can't we simulate a 'what if' situation where the Germans came prepared for winter.



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Do not accept or follow any medical advice*

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Post #: 4
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 4:38:34 AM   
cookie monster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If the game is supposed to be a simulation then why can't we simulate a 'what if' situation where the Germans came prepared for winter.


Cos it's a historical simulation. The German Order of Battle is set.

Let the murderers freeze in their foxholes.

(in reply to Dr. Foo)
Post #: 5
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 7:52:39 AM   
EisenHammer


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So digging in will not help you in the first winter on the Russian front?

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RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 8:00:36 AM   
jay102

 

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AFAIK, the most experienced player from tester team is merely able to get a historical result and casualty number in 41 winter, even with hindsight and expert planning.

Average Axis player usually collapse 9 out of 10 times.

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Post #: 7
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 8:20:05 AM   
EisenHammer


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Thats not cool.
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.

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Post #: 8
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 1:52:15 PM   
Kid


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I was able to get thru the blizzard in very good shape for the first time in many games. First I had to play on normal, second I concentrated on isolating the Russian units and making them surrender. Before I always went for mileage. I stopped early and dug in while building forts behind my lines where I expected breakthroughs. I caused about 3 million Russian casualties before the blizzard hit. This greatly limited how many troops the AI had for the counter attack. I do think there should be a player option to reduce the blizzard effects.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and currently testing War in the East.


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Post #: 9
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 3:34:06 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Thats not cool.
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.


My opinion as well. Even level 4 forts, which take ages to build, don't provide any protection. I don't think it's actually the combat modifiers that hurt, since these can be somewhat compensated for, but the attrition. Not to mention the long term experience loss.

IMO one should at least institute another check for fort levels like the current check for towns. Could even be the identical check, with unit limits if necessary.

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 10
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 3:53:04 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Thats not cool.
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.


Us players are in charge of either the Axis or Soviets. Starting on 22 june 1941. What happens before is not our business. In fact, we cannot control that part... so... the Germans (or should we say Hitler and the Wehrmatch) expected a very short campaign (à la France, Low Countries, Norway, Balkans). The Blitzkrieg should finish the Soviets before Christmas, etc. etc. No "first winter" thing would mean like bringing Starship Troopers, Klingons and other funny stuff

So no warm sleeping bags for the Wehrmatch. What for?

_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

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Post #: 11
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 4:29:11 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Thats not cool.
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.


My opinion as well. Even level 4 forts, which take ages to build, don't provide any protection. I don't think it's actually the combat modifiers that hurt, since these can be somewhat compensated for, but the attrition. Not to mention the long term experience loss.

IMO one should at least institute another check for fort levels like the current check for towns. Could even be the identical check, with unit limits if necessary.


As a matter of fact it works, but you have to do it right (for tips, RTFM (or at least the section on First Winter Blizzard) at least three times; I was still finding little gems buried in the text on the third time through).

Now forts will help protect you from attacks by hordes of Russians, but that is not what is killing the Germans (at least at first). First rule if you are caught in a blizzard: get to shelter. Per TFM you can shelter from the blizzards in towns (one unit sometimes) and urban (two or three units all the time).

So, during the Mud and Snow, pull all of your mobile troops back to urban hexes as near to the front as you please. Then look to where you can form the best line by connecting town and urban hexes; go there and start digging. Leave gaps if you can dig in on a town one our two hexes behind your first stop line. Use mountain troops to cover gaps between towns in the stop line; NEVER waste a mountain unit by putting it in a town. Do NOT stack except mobile units in urban hexas. Try to get as much of your army as possible into some sort of shelter before the blizzard hits. Leave a screen (two hex gaps) along the original front line to keep the Russians away from your first stop line during Mud and Snow turns. Have your screen run like hell as soon as the blizzard hits (use RAIL ALWAYS if you can during Mud, Snow or especially Blizzard to perserve your trucks (and NEVER move mobile troops except by rail unless you are really, really desperate)). Also pull all of your minor allies (except the Finns of course) and stick all of them in urban hexes as far from the front as possible because they are useless the first winter EXCEPT the mountain troops which will fare better than you German infantry..

With a little luck this will hold you to about a half-million frostbite casualties with none in the mobile troops by January. Then it gets nasty as your line begins to crack from major Russian attacks but it's a lot better than your army disintegrating in December. I had 1.2 million disabled by April (most in the fighting in late Jan and Feb when I had to fight in the open) and that seems to be about as good as it gets.

(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 12
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 5:08:29 PM   
madgamer2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If the game is supposed to be a simulation then why can't we simulate a 'what if' situation where the Germans came prepared for winter.


Cos it's a historical simulation. The German Order of Battle is set.

Let the murderers freeze in their foxholes.

SO ELOQUENT I would suspect your hobby is kicking sleeping dogs. You will have to forgive me but I find such comments a bit stupid.
This is a historical simulation and some what ifs could add some flavor.

Madgamer2

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Post #: 13
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 5:30:45 PM   
cookie monster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If the game is supposed to be a simulation then why can't we simulate a 'what if' situation where the Germans came prepared for winter.


Cos it's a historical simulation. The German Order of Battle is set.

Let the murderers freeze in their foxholes.

SO ELOQUENT I would suspect your hobby is kicking sleeping dogs. You will have to forgive me but I find such comments a bit stupid.
This is a historical simulation and some what ifs could add some flavor.

Madgamer2


I'm sorry that I upset you.

This is after all a historical simulation of the Eastern Front.

The German's froze in the foxholes with no winter clothing.

That is a historical fact.

If you wanna play a modded game with first winter modifications then feel free.

For some people to complain about the stock games simulation of how the first winter affected the Germans in a stock game is a little strange.

Take my comment with a pinch of salt.

I realised I was being flippant but thought you Kraut Lovers would realise I was only messing.

Best regards

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 14
Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 5:38:30 PM   
madgamer2

 

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And It would appear I should have raised this BEFORE I ORDERED the game. Many of us are average players and will have to play through the first winter many times like the testers before we can get a handle on that first winter. Having a ready for winter optional rule would allow the average player who will collapse and get run over by the Reds happen to the popint they will stop playing this wonderful game. I dont't have the time to spend hours and hours playing and replaying that first year.
I was hoping the rule for varying the winter weather or what ever it was called would help. A lot of players will get discouraged after getting blitzed by the reds and quit the game. What is the use of playing something like this when you know your most lkely going to fail. If hard coded means that it could not be changed even with a patch then I have wasted my money because I ply for the fun of it and getting ready for that first winter will make it difficult to play and have fun. When a game becomes work I don't play
it much.
I am surprised that Gary G did not put in an optional rule for beginners so the first winter is easier or for players who just want to have fun playing the game. The hard core players win out again like with the AE game. I am not objecting to having a game for the expert, hardcore player its just that a little more consideration for those of us who are not hardcore or expert or have lots of time to ply the game.

I know the hardcore will say I am being a wimp and I guess they would be right compared to there level of play ability. I Had such high hopes for this game and Its designer. No more buying GG"s games right out of the gate like the past now I will have to read more of the forum and ask dumb questions. If matrix ever gets my download+ boxed shipment fixed I will try but i think it will be like AE which is way over my head as I can barely keep even with the dumb AI in WitP LOL

I can't win them all

A much sadder Madgamer2

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You are part of the problem

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Post #: 15
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 5:57:49 PM   
cookie monster


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Perhaps in a AI game you could turn the difficulty down.

One tester said he can't play at challenging in the first winter.

This is I think a game for all players, from amateurs to grognards it depends on how much you wanna micromanage.

Matrix do seem to make grognard games though with very carefully researched orders of battle.

They make historical simulations.

I play War in the Pacific Admirals Edition and once set up the game only needs tweaking to keep running.

Unlike WiTE which is much more time consuming.

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 16
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:00:32 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

And It would appear I should have raised this BEFORE I ORDERED the game. Many of us are average players and will have to play through the first winter many times like the testers before we can get a handle on that first winter. Having a ready for winter optional rule would allow the average player who will collapse and get run over by the Reds happen to the popint they will stop playing this wonderful game. I dont't have the time to spend hours and hours playing and replaying that first year.
I was hoping the rule for varying the winter weather or what ever it was called would help. A lot of players will get discouraged after getting blitzed by the reds and quit the game. What is the use of playing something like this when you know your most lkely going to fail. If hard coded means that it could not be changed even with a patch then I have wasted my money because I ply for the fun of it and getting ready for that first winter will make it difficult to play and have fun. When a game becomes work I don't play
it much.
I am surprised that Gary G did not put in an optional rule for beginners so the first winter is easier or for players who just want to have fun playing the game. The hard core players win out again like with the AE game. I am not objecting to having a game for the expert, hardcore player its just that a little more consideration for those of us who are not hardcore or expert or have lots of time to ply the game.

I know the hardcore will say I am being a wimp and I guess they would be right compared to there level of play ability. I Had such high hopes for this game and Its designer. No more buying GG"s games right out of the gate like the past now I will have to read more of the forum and ask dumb questions. If matrix ever gets my download+ boxed shipment fixed I will try but i think it will be like AE which is way over my head as I can barely keep even with the dumb AI in WitP LOL

I can't win them all

A much sadder Madgamer2


Madgamer, but via the editor you could create the fictitious 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105 and 106 German Armies Arriving in spring 1942... And then increase the German manpower. And so on. Don't blame the developers for delivering a historical game (that's what they were supposed to do AND that's why I --and I suspect many people here-- bought it). You knew it would be a HISTORICAL game (just like WitP. And being like me a Witp regular -if I remember correctly- you know the Japanese cannot win and also know that you can give the Japanese many "toys" via the editor) It's not the end of the world. And er, you have the Soviets, no need to be on the receiving end...

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/16/2011 6:02:47 PM >


_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

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Post #: 17
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:08:19 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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From: Back to Reality :(
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Unlike WiTE which is much more time consuming.


Don't forget in WitP AE there are daily turns. So to compare you should x7

I personally find WitP AE more complex: amphibious operations are truly complex (as in real life). Not to mention the air and naval operations: very detailed.

And the logistics!


< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/16/2011 6:11:02 PM >


_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

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Post #: 18
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:24:26 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

And It would appear I should have raised this BEFORE I ORDERED the game. Many of us are average players and will have to play through the first winter many times like the testers before we can get a handle on that first winter. Having a ready for winter optional rule would allow the average player who will collapse and get run over by the Reds happen to the popint they will stop playing this wonderful game. I dont't have the time to spend hours and hours playing and replaying that first year.
I was hoping the rule for varying the winter weather or what ever it was called would help. A lot of players will get discouraged after getting blitzed by the reds and quit the game. What is the use of playing something like this when you know your most lkely going to fail. If hard coded means that it could not be changed even with a patch then I have wasted my money because I ply for the fun of it and getting ready for that first winter will make it difficult to play and have fun. When a game becomes work I don't play
it much.
I am surprised that Gary G did not put in an optional rule for beginners so the first winter is easier or for players who just want to have fun playing the game. The hard core players win out again like with the AE game. I am not objecting to having a game for the expert, hardcore player its just that a little more consideration for those of us who are not hardcore or expert or have lots of time to ply the game.

I know the hardcore will say I am being a wimp and I guess they would be right compared to there level of play ability. I Had such high hopes for this game and Its designer. No more buying GG"s games right out of the gate like the past now I will have to read more of the forum and ask dumb questions. If matrix ever gets my download+ boxed shipment fixed I will try but i think it will be like AE which is way over my head as I can barely keep even with the dumb AI in WitP LOL

I can't win them all

A much sadder Madgamer2


Madgamer, but via the editor you could create the fictitious 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105 and 106 German Armies Arriving in spring 1942... And then increase the German manpower. And so on. Don't blame the developers for delivering a historical game (that's what they were supposed to do AND that's why I --and I suspect many people here-- bought it). You knew it would be a HISTORICAL game (just like WitP. And being like me a Witp regular -if I remember correctly- you know the Japanese cannot win and also know that you can give the Japanese many "toys" via the editor) It's not the end of the world. And er, you have the Soviets, no need to be on the receiving end...



The manual and any of the dozens of comments the testers have made about how to survive the first winter will provide a lot of information about how to survive the first winter. Will you get hurt in the First Winter: absolutely. Can you do far, far better than the Germans given the advantage of hindsight: absolutely.



< Message edited by pompack -- 1/16/2011 6:50:31 PM >

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 19
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:33:06 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

And It would appear I should have raised this BEFORE I ORDERED the game. Many of us are average players and will have to play through the first winter many times like the testers before we can get a handle on that first winter.


You could play the Soviet side.

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 20
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:41:53 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5648
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From: Irving,Tx
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Ah, come on guys, he made a comment about the weather. Quit busting his chops for it. It would be a nice feature, I got savaged extremely hard my first winter, bad enough that I started over. So for new players trying to come to grips with it, it might be nice.

And since I got savaged by the AI that time, I basically stop all offensive actions in Oct and start digging in. Level 4-5 forts across my entire frontline area. Lesson learned and all that. And now the AI has a hard time cracking my line anywhere except in the south.

And for the history comments, history dies the moment I end my 1st turn. I don't mind it to some extent, but I refuse to be condemned to repeat history in a game, just because it happened in real life. I played the Japanese in WITP because they are the underdogs, same for as the Germans here. So let's back away and quit pounding some.

And to the Kraut comment, easy on some of the names. I got your meaning, but we are an international forum and you have to remember that.

(in reply to MengJiao)
Post #: 21
RE: The weather thing - 1/16/2011 6:45:57 PM   
itkotw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

I was able to get thru the blizzard in very good shape for the first time in many games... I caused about 3 million Russian casualties before the blizzard hit. This greatly limited how many troops the AI had for the counter attack.


I had a similar experience (causing 3+ million casualties) before the blizzard, and my german army out numbered their army (as per the OOB screen 3.75 mil GER to 3.2 mil RUS). But by January the OOB showed 7+ million russian troops and the stronger points in their line were 5-6 units deep. One breakthrough, which I wasnt originally worried about (who would have thought marshes would make a good breakthrough), ended up having something like 180 brigades/divisions in it (I removed FoW to count).

I would be interested (if others would be so kind) to hear how many troops both sides had (as per OOB screen) before and after the blizzard. Maybe in my next game I will push on Lenningrad and Moscow instead of trying to go south, in hopes of knocking out population centers.

As for the "historical simulation" crowd. Off the top of my head I would say that, yes, historically, the germans pushed as far as they could and were left in the open with no winter equipment. But germans spending months building forts, of any level, would have increase winter protection. Getting out of the weather in any fashion increases your survival rate. Even eskimos in ingloos feel warmer than being outside.

Quick search about snow shelters gives quotes like this:
"Temperature inside a snow shelter can be 32 degrees or warmer even when the outside temperature is -40 degrees." http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/quinzeetrigger.html
" ...just several feet below the surface of the snow the temperature rarely drops below 20F no matter how cold and windy it is on the surface."
http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/snow-trench-shelter/

I think forts could be harder to build, but they should give some protection. Maybe level 3,4,5 forts should practically require contruction battalions to assist to build the fort in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe lower the contruction values of average units.

I dont want the germans to have a free pass, but it should be a trade off between milage achieved or forts (=shelter), not death at the gates of Moscow or death at gates of Mogilev (germans die where ever they choose to stop, currently).


(in reply to Kid)
Post #: 22
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:49:57 PM   
BigAnorak


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@ madgamer. Have you tried adjusting the AI settings? You can adjust them manually every turn if you want to. If you change the settings to "easy", the admin and supply bonuses pretty much cancel out the first winter supply penalties, and the reduced supply and admin the SU receives significantly reduces their offensive capabilities. The Axis will still get the attrition losses and reduced combat strength, but I am sure you could find a setting that would allow you to control how far the SU advances during the Blizzard.

I still have to switch to "normal" during the blizzard when I am playing challenging games.

_____________________________

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(new version)Gary Grigsby's War in the East is not a game - it is a way of life!

War in the East Alpha/Beta Tester

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Post #: 23
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:52:18 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I got savaged extremely hard my first winter, bad enough that I started over.



And the Soviets are savaged on the first turns of the game...

_____________________________

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Post #: 24
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:52:32 PM   
jay102

 

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I think different people have different definitions of "historical game". WitE in current, is a strict, determinstic historical game, intentionally tested to align the historical outcome. This cannot be blamed, it offers players a good experience of historical simulation, just as watching a WW2 movie or reading a WW2 book.

However, from game perspective, a strict, determinstic style of design also hampered the diversification, replayability and initiative. These are important features in game experience, especially in a competitive wargame often played between human opponents. Do you like to see, in every game, the Germans make stereotype offensive and Russian make stereotype sir robinovich in summer, and vice versa in winter?

I think historical game should not be focused to reproduce the outcome of history. Yes, it should simulates the historical enviroments, conditions and limitations as accurate as possible. After that, it's the players' show time, making their own strategies, testing various what ifs...to produce their own outcome based on reasonable historical limitations. This is what makes a game shine. Without initiative and achievements, what's the point of playing game? better to watch movies or read books.

Regarding to the hardcoded first winter rule, it's obviously a typical example of the deterministic design. Player always suffer the historical catastrophe even if no historical overextension and logistical negligence. In contrary, the Russian side has no hardcoded limitations to simulate Stalin's no retreat order, isn't it a bit strange?

< Message edited by jay102 -- 1/16/2011 7:28:35 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 6:58:37 PM   
2ndACR


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From: Irving,Tx
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I got savaged extremely hard my first winter, bad enough that I started over.



And the Soviets are savaged on the first turns of the game...


They are in my games that is for sure.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 26
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 7:17:09 PM   
madgamer2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Perhaps in a AI game you could turn the difficulty down.

One tester said he can't play at challenging in the first winter.

This is I think a game for all players, from amateurs to grognards it depends on how much you wanna micromanage.

Matrix do seem to make grognard games though with very carefully researched orders of battle.

They make historical simulations.

I play War in the Pacific Admirals Edition and once set up the game only needs tweaking to keep running.

Unlike WiTE which is much more time consuming.

First I owe you an apology as i am upset because my download+ boxed game order is messes up. The game is being shipped but the download link they sent does not recognize the order ID number so no download as yet. I have also been told by win 7 that two Matrix games are each missing a component that are not in win 7. Yet i have friends who play both games in Win 7 with no problems.
I find your comment about AE to be the most common but I had a copy of it for two weeks from a friend and I let the game micro manage a lot but did not like the way it did it and was not willing to do it. I play WitP for fun stupid AI and all and do like it.
I mean the manual for AE is almost three times as long as WitP. it just could be this 70 yr. old brain. Thanks for the info on setting the difficulty level that way I can keep the winter loss at a minimum.

Madgamer2

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Post #: 27
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 7:29:52 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 4379
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From: Back to Reality :(
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

I think historical game should not be focused to reproduce the outcome of history. Yes, it should simulates the historical enviroments, conditions and limitations as accurate as possible. After that, it's the players' show time, making their own strategies, testing various what ifs...to produce their own outcome based on reasonable historical limitations. This is what makes a game shine. Without initiative and achievements, what's the point of playing game? better to watch movies or read books.


The problem is the German Army was built around this assumption: Blitzkrieg. People automatically think about the scintillant Panzers and their amazing victories... but they forget (or simply ignore) that this military doctrine was born because Germany was WEAK! They had to find a new way to conduct war. They needed to eliminate their enemies one by one AND quickly! The Blitzkrieg was a consequence of German weakness (NOT the other way around: "wow, Germany has Panzers because they're strong"...)

So these are exactly the "historical enviroments, conditions and limitations as accurate as possible" you mention. German war machine was NOT made for a long war. It was exclusively made for short and contundent conflicts. Therefore stopping somewhere in Russia in october 1941 to build forts and protect your soldiers and machines does NOT make any historical sense, sorry. It's "get to Moscow, annihilate Red Army or drop dead". Curious, that's what the Germans did...

Said this, I'm no one to say what people should have AGAINST the AI. But for sure NO Soviet PBEM player should accept this aberrant "no winter" rule

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Post #: 28
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 7:35:26 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5648
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
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Don't think he wanted a no winter rule, but an adjustable one so he could tone it down while learning. My first winter I thought I was doing out standing, inflicted brutal losses on the russians, but also way, over extended and advanced till the last second. It was pretty demotivating during that winter. LOL



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Post #: 29
RE: Another waste of money - 1/16/2011 7:55:35 PM   
James Ward

 

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From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
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Regarding hstorical, the Germans building a fort line in October in anticipation of a winter counter attack doesn't seem very historical.

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Post #: 30
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