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What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand Strategy and why?

 
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What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand Stra... - 1/13/2011 5:16:17 AM   
warishere


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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 5:29:05 AM   
jomni


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Tactical & Operational
Not so much of grand strategy since I don't like building units.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 5:38:23 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I like about the level of Storm over the Pacific. I'm not sure where that would fit in. I don't care for squad based combat. Maybe battalion and above. 

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 5:45:35 AM   
warspite1


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Does anyone know the precise definitions of each? - particularly the difference between operational and tactical?

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 5:51:04 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know the precise definitions of each? - particularly the difference between operational and tactical?


Tactical: You tell your troops where to shoot and where to go.
Operational: You tell our troops where to go and they do the fighting themselves.

Kinda broad but this is how I see it.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 6:17:10 AM   
Joe 98


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Tactical: You give orders to a team. The team might consist of 1 man, 2 men or a squad.

Operational: Each unit is platoon, or company, or battalion.

Strategic: Each unit is Regiment or division in size

Grand Strategy: Each unit is division or greater

-

At the Strategic or Grand Strategy level, you need to include some elements of production. By which I mean a player has choices:

2 submarines or 20 tanks

2 tanks or 50 infantry

20 tanks or a 10 fighters

10 fighters or one 4 engined bomber

1 million infantry or 1 atomic bomb

etc etc



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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 6:18:49 AM   
warishere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Does anyone know the precise definitions of each? - particularly the difference between operational and tactical?


Tactical: You tell your troops where to shoot and where to go.
Operational: You tell our troops where to go and they do the fighting themselves.

Kinda broad but this is how I see it.



This is corrrect. I would also like to add this...

Tactical games are focused on battlefield action, for example, Combat Mission is what you would call a tactical game. In most operational games you have to worry about supply lines and other various things that are not directly related to the actual combat itself. And of course, in a grand strategy game you have to worry about what type of units you build, production costs, how much your cities produce and so on.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 6:54:25 AM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Tactical: You give orders to a team. The team might consist of 1 man, 2 men or a squad.

Operational: Each unit is platoon, or company, or battalion.

Strategic: Each unit is Regiment or division in size

Grand Strategy: Each unit is division or greater



No

Tactical: Any where from the individual man up to the platoon level.

Operational: Battalion size to Divisions

Grand Strategy: Armies, Corps, Army Groups

I personally prefer Tactical and Operational, leaning toward Operational. I don't like tactical games as much because if the scenario gets too large it becomes tedious to play. I also like the more overview perspective of operational. Grand Strategy I just don't like at all.

War in the Pacific is special case, however. It's a grand strategy game in the sense that you worry about production, logistics, etc. BUT at the same time you are controlling individual squads, planes, and ships. It also still uses hexes and not "territories" as in most grand strategy games.(which is why I don't like them)

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 7:17:31 AM   
Shark7


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4X space personally. Distant Worlds is taking up all my time.

In general I like a mix of both strategy and tactical. I like being able to command from the big picture strategic level, but being able to take over at the tactical level when I feel like it.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 8:53:51 AM   
berto


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Operational.

At the tactical level, I don't care about weapons hardware. At the strategic level, I don't care about production. I just want to maneuver and fight!

Moreover, I like my war gaming set at specific historical times in specific historical places. Strategic tends to stray too far towards historical fantasy (e.g., RE Lee commanding the Army of Tennessee in the defence of Mobile). Tactical tends to model abstracted, stylized combats (because we seldom know historical tactical situations in specifically great detail). In that sense, for me operational is more "real".

< Message edited by berto -- 1/13/2011 6:30:12 PM >


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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 9:28:44 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
War in the Pacific is special case, however. It's a grand strategy game in the sense that you worry about production, logistics, etc. BUT at the same time you are controlling individual squads, planes, and ships. It also still uses hexes and not "territories" as in most grand strategy games.(which is why I don't like them)


WITP still leans more to Operational with some strategic aspects.
You do not choose what to produce in WITP (except for the planes).
There is also some Tactical orders to make especially in the air aspect.
It's really a BEAST!

< Message edited by jomni -- 1/13/2011 9:30:50 AM >

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 2:31:22 PM   
Slick Wilhelm


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I prefer Tactical and Operational. Once in a very great while, a Strategy or Grand Strategy game will suck me in and scratch that itch. When I was in a Grand Strategy mood last year, Forge of Freedom kept me interested for many months consecutively.  

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 4:40:00 PM   
diablo1

 

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Whatever Norbsofts and Mad Minutes games are is what I like best. I like that I can pick any level of command and play out a game.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 5:37:40 PM   
gabeeg


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Turn based Tactical! For me it is more immersive, and I like the individual details like moral, armour, etc. and (this is the important part) see its effect. The details may be modeled in Operational games but is hidden from the user in most cases. I get satisfaction on the penetrating hit by the 57mm AT gun on the side armor of the PzIV and knowing whether it damaged, immobilized or killed that individual unit, or routing a squad after killing 3 of its members, individual unit movement. This much more personal and engaging to me than a routed division or a battalion that lost 27% of it's effectiveness.

I do enjoy operational games also...just enjoy smaller scale tactical a little bit more.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 9:39:48 PM   
invernomuto


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Tactical and operational.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 9:44:11 PM   
warspite1


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Strategic - not sure why, but seem to get on better when dealing with the big picture rather than tons of detail. That said, I like WITE, which is not really strategic, although does represent the whole Eastern Front war so I guess is kind of big picture in its way

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 10:43:36 PM   
warishere


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Tactical: You give orders to a team. The team might consist of 1 man, 2 men or a squad.

Operational: Each unit is platoon, or company, or battalion.

Strategic: Each unit is Regiment or division in size

Grand Strategy: Each unit is division or greater



No

Tactical: Any where from the individual man up to the platoon level.

Operational: Battalion size to Divisions

Grand Strategy: Armies, Corps, Army Groups

I personally prefer Tactical and Operational, leaning toward Operational. I don't like tactical games as much because if the scenario gets too large it becomes tedious to play. I also like the more overview perspective of operational. Grand Strategy I just don't like at all.

War in the Pacific is special case, however. It's a grand strategy game in the sense that you worry about production, logistics, etc. BUT at the same time you are controlling individual squads, planes, and ships. It also still uses hexes and not "territories" as in most grand strategy games.(which is why I don't like them)



Yeah, I don't care to much for the territory style of gaming either like World At War. Even though WaW is a good game the territories take away from operational movement/planning a lot. Hexes are way better, hexes make me feel like I'm playing chess while territories feels like playing monopoly. But one thing I hate about the hexes is that hexed based maps are so ugly.

I just cringe when I look at a hex-based map especially when it has the nato symbols (or whatever they're called) representing your army. I just hate the way it looks.... I like 3D models a lot more. But I'm slowly finding out that most wargamers prefer the nato symbols with the counters. However, I think this is one reason why wargames are not as mainstream as other genres are. They just don't look good and the hexes make it look very difficult to learn. But there are some hexed based games that are really easy to learn like Strategic Command 2 and Commander- Europe At War. I like SC2 a lot.

I haven't played WITP yet. So it actually combines TaC,Op and GS alltogether? I am looking for a game like this, its just really hard to find one that combines it all on one game map. I know the Total War games combine it fairly well but the tactical battles are played on a 3D map. So, its not exactly like combining all 3 elements of war into one game. I'll have to check out WITP, sounds like a great game. Do you also have to control supply lines in WITP?

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/13/2011 11:39:54 PM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warishere


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Tactical: You give orders to a team. The team might consist of 1 man, 2 men or a squad.

Operational: Each unit is platoon, or company, or battalion.

Strategic: Each unit is Regiment or division in size

Grand Strategy: Each unit is division or greater



No

Tactical: Any where from the individual man up to the platoon level.

Operational: Battalion size to Divisions

Grand Strategy: Armies, Corps, Army Groups

I personally prefer Tactical and Operational, leaning toward Operational. I don't like tactical games as much because if the scenario gets too large it becomes tedious to play. I also like the more overview perspective of operational. Grand Strategy I just don't like at all.

War in the Pacific is special case, however. It's a grand strategy game in the sense that you worry about production, logistics, etc. BUT at the same time you are controlling individual squads, planes, and ships. It also still uses hexes and not "territories" as in most grand strategy games.(which is why I don't like them)



Yeah, I don't care to much for the territory style of gaming either like World At War. Even though WaW is a good game the territories take away from operational movement/planning a lot. Hexes are way better, hexes make me feel like I'm playing chess while territories feels like playing monopoly. But one thing I hate about the hexes is that hexed based maps are so ugly.

I just cringe when I look at a hex-based map especially when it has the nato symbols (or whatever they're called) representing your army. I just hate the way it looks.... I like 3D models a lot more. But I'm slowly finding out that most wargamers prefer the nato symbols with the counters. However, I think this is one reason why wargames are not as mainstream as other genres are. They just don't look good and the hexes make it look very difficult to learn. But there are some hexed based games that are really easy to learn like Strategic Command 2 and Commander- Europe At War. I like SC2 a lot.

I haven't played WITP yet. So it actually combines TaC,Op and GS alltogether? I am looking for a game like this, its just really hard to find one that combines it all on one game map. I know the Total War games combine it fairly well but the tactical battles are played on a 3D map. So, its not exactly like combining all 3 elements of war into one game. I'll have to check out WITP, sounds like a great game. Do you also have to control supply lines in WITP?


Hex based maps are only ugly if the developer makes it that way. Admiral's edition, GG's WitE, JT's Battleground Series and SSG titles come to mind for good hex based maps. I would say it's actually easier to learn with hexes. Hexes make it clearly defined where a unit can and cannot go and I don't even think the average person in the Mainstream would play GG's War in the East whether it used 3D models or not.

I personally prefer the counters, they just overall look better and less messy. I find the NATO Counters more functional and it also feels more like I'm a commander looking at an actual battle map.(Commanders in real life use NATO symbols on maps so it feels more realistic) However, at the tactical scale NATO symbols begin to break down in regard to vehicles. A Panzer IV or a Panzer VI will have the same looking counter, so at a glance sprites or figures are preferable at that scale.

War in the Pacific takes elements from all scales, yes. Logistics are a huge part of the game. Don't worry, you will have plenty dealing with supply lines.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 1/13/2011 11:41:27 PM >


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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 12:34:42 AM   
warishere


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quote:

Admiral's edition, GG's WitE, JT's Battleground Series and SSG titles come to mind for good hex based maps.


I do like the BG Series maps, they are nice looking.

quote:

I don't even think the average person in the Mainstream would play GG's War in the East whether it used 3D models or not.



You're probably right but the Total War series has become quite popular and the strategic maps in those games are gorgeous. Gamers seem to be attracted to eye candy, why not give it to them? I think one other reason why they're not as popular is because WWII always seems to be the theme. I would like to see a hypothetical global conflict cold war game that takes place in the 70s or 80s, but has the visually stunning maps of the Total War series.

quote:

I personally prefer the counters, they just overall look better and less messy


Funny, I feel the exact opposite. I don't mind the counters its just the symbols that are annoying to me.

quote:

Don't worry, you will have plenty dealing with supply lines.



It would seem so. Just checking it out right now and wow... WITP looks amazingly deep with that 330 page manual.

How long does it take to learn? My experience level in wargaming is probably intermediate. I've been playing operational, tactical and GS games off and on for about the last 3 years or so. But haven't played anything with a manual that big.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 12:38:22 AM   
parusski


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I like all three, depends on my mood.

But strategic is my ultimate favorite.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 1:14:26 AM   
jomni


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Regarding graphics:  I get more immersion from counters as opposed to 3D grphics.
Playing the role of commander, one does not see what really happens in the front lines.
All you get are drawings  / counters on a map. :)  But as you go more tactical, 3D is nice...
just like the new Combat Mission games.

@diablo1,  If you like Mad Minute style command and control flexibility, you might want to try the Panther Games if you haven't.

< Message edited by jomni -- 1/14/2011 1:42:45 AM >

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 3:12:23 AM   
parusski


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jomni I agree with you on the graphics issue. The counters in my collection of(a lotta games) board games have received lot's of loving examination over the years.

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 4:41:34 AM   
martok


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I enjoy all three, but not to the same degree. In order:

1.) Grand strategy
2.) Tactical
3.) Operational



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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 7:58:11 AM   
willy


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Can't remember who originally posted this, but:

"Strategy is bringing a condom along with you on your date. Tactics is fishing around for it under the driver's seat of your car after you've dropped it."

I suppose Operational would be finding a dark secluded place to park

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RE: What do you prefer, Operational, Tactical or Grand ... - 1/14/2011 7:45:14 PM   
Anthropoid


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Exactly me too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I like all three, depends on my mood.

But strategic is my ultimate favorite.



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