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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight

 
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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 12:30:07 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

the fact that the newer model planes were not being used was also painful.


I believe the AI makes upgrades based on available pool for the current airframe, and whether the air group is under half strength.
But I think the AI aircraft upgrading can be a little flaky, so I usually turn it off.

e.g. from event log of my last MP server game:

220 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 002 6-26-1941 Soviet
220 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 010 8-21-1941 Soviet
220 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 013 9-11-1941 Soviet
220 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 016 10-2-1941 Soviet
220 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 021 11-6-1941 Soviet

228 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 002 6-26-1941 Soviet
228 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 007 7-31-1941 Soviet
228 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 017 10-9-1941 Soviet

242 BAP air group changed planes from Pe-2 to DB-3B Turn 002 6-26-1941 Soviet
242 BAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 006 7-24-1941 Soviet
242 BAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 011 8-28-1941 Soviet
242 BAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 018 10-16-1941 Soviet

321 BAP air group changed planes from Pe-2 to DB-3B Turn 002 6-26-1941 Soviet
321 BAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 004 7-10-1941 Soviet
321 BAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 014 9-18-1941 Soviet
321 BAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 015 9-25-1941 Soviet

53 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 005 7-17-1941 Soviet
53 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 015 9-25-1941 Soviet
53 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 020 10-30-1941 Soviet

90 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 010 8-21-1941 Soviet
90 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 011 8-28-1941 Soviet
90 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 014 9-18-1941 Soviet
90 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 019 10-23-1941 Soviet

96 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 011 8-28-1941 Soviet
96 DBAP air group upgraded planes from DB-3B to IL-4 Turn 012 9-4-1941 Soviet
96 DBAP air group changed planes from IL-4 to DB-3B Turn 015 9-25-1941 Soviet

(in reply to Scar23)
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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 12:59:58 AM   
Pelton

 

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Grats to you both

< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/10/2012 1:00:23 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Scar23)
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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 3:15:27 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Thanks guys!

As per a request, here are the German final production numbers. First the industry - never had any shortages in manpower or armaments.




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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 3:16:51 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Aircraft were always plentiful, no shortages. Aircraft production continued to the bitter end




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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 3:19:42 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Panzer production ceased in April '45. Had plenty of panzers up to that point. All panzer divs were pretty much up to full strength during all months of the war prior to Apr '45. They got beat up occasionally, but if allowed to pull back and refit, they could get to 100%.

I understand the Panther D production has been fixed - I had plenty of Panther Ds produced!




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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 3:21:13 AM   
IdahoNYer


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and lastly the infantry. Had a harder time getting infantry divisions up to full strength - even when pulled back to refit, despite never seeing a shortage of rifle squads in the pool




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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 3:26:04 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Thanks guys!

As per a request, here are the German final production numbers. First the industry - never had any shortages in manpower or armaments.


Thx Ed.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 607
RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 5:09:12 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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In looking at the achtungpanzer website, they had total jagdpanther production estimated at 415. These game production figures show 4 times that # built. I wonder what was up with that?

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 10:54:59 AM   
janh

 

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First, hats off to both of you. This was my favorite AAR thus far, and for a good reason. You both played a very interesting game, and it was as much fun to watch the Soviet hordes to rush forward and push the Germans occasionally to the breaking point, as it was fun to watch how a German player can organize a defense and counterattack, saving some cut-off units or punishing the Red hordes. Lastly, this ARR also had a great style, it often read like the summary of a Wehrmacht's situation report.

I hope there will be more, maybe a 1942 or 43 GC start to compare what difference a historical 41 would now make? Or another GC with swapped roles?

I'd really also like to hear the opinions of both of you, where the present engine resides in terms of balance, or what you think isn't caught well with the rules or mechanics we have. Maybe some "constructive criticism" could still make it into WitW, or at least influence the future development of this series.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scar23
There were lots of refit "bugs/issues' but these could have been caused by our patching as we went.


Would you mind positing your production and OOB screens as well? Looking at the overall casualties, 11M Russian and 5M German, it sounds like the fighting was a bit less. Could you in retrospect have pushed the Germans harder in the past years? Or were the manpower losses in 41 too crippling in the long run?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scar23
I don’t believe the supply model works at all. Both sides can launch broad attacks, all across the map, and all at once. No need to focus or worry about supplying multiple areas while on the attack. This seems too basic for a game with this much detail. I should be husbanding my supply resources, as should the Germans at some point.


Yeah, I think no one would argue with that point any longer. Even if it presently would skew the whole production model away from the numbers based on research, I would favor toning down the supply production across the board for both sides. Make it artificially scarce, basically. And then also increase the penalties for supply flow forward, maybe add a penalty rule that affects an attacker more so than a defender: add a reduction in the supply phase for say Panzers/Mech/Armor that end the turn below 10 MP, and Infantry below 6 MP or so. Something that after 2 or 3 turns pushing forward will require at least 1 turn pause.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scar23
I think isolated units fold too quickly. The reduction to their CV should be linked to supply better. A 12-15 CV unit with 80% supplies will go to 1 CV as soon as isolated, if it still has enough supplies on hand to continue to fight effectively there should be a drop to moral for being isolated, but if they have the supplies there should not be such a big drop in CV. Now if it is attacked, and burns through its supply, I could see the drastic reduction… so multiple attacks on an isolated unit would cause use of supply, thus reducing its CV. I don't see how a Stalingrad encirclement could ever be simulated by the game, as it would never hold out more than a turn or two unless it was level 4 entrenched in a city. Then maybe two turns.


Nothing to add here either, I think the community generally agrees with that. This would also greatly lower OP-Tempo, hence not going overboard with any other penalties, and it would make pockets last "much more realistically" longer. Maybe increase "wastage" so that the CV drops 30% per turn by depleting supply quicker? In the end, imagine if the Lvov pocket lived for 3-4 turns -- and left the pockets units enough strength to inflict some more casualties until they are gone; it would do a lot to make the Lvov fighting more credible, not purely an I-Go-U-Go artifact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scar23
Something still seems wrong with the entrenchments. At times our game seemed to be too attritional. Maybe tie entrenchments to Action points or something. I know the Russians need the entrenchments to hope to stand against the Germans early on (and this could be fixed by making the Russians a little better so they would not rely so heavily on entrenchments, but most of their units are 1-3 CVs, put 25-30 CVs in a level 3 entrenchment and it’s not possible to successfully assault the hex. I was losing 6-8k in men on assaults for no real gain, even if I won the hex…there was another level 2-3 entrenchment behind the first one.


Obviously the Soviet fort spam is done for, but now the Germans in the later years have the APs, often the manpower, and always the construction units to create quite a few eastwalls. I am not sure where the problem here really is, i.e. is it because your Army was not growing strong enough, quick enough anymore to overcome those fort lines (i.e. your offensive potential was effectively robbed in 41/42), or whether it was just to easy for the Germans to erect them. The balance in this game seems to hinge on a very narrow line, and of course your Army being weaker resulted in Axis defense being stronger, Axis losses lower, and more manpower for more fort zones being available. Maybe the balance in this aspect as much as in a few others should be more forgiving?

BTW, the Axis material pools are impressive, especially manpower and no question, also planes. Imagine this were a "War in Europe" game where you'd have these spares now available in the West or South...

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 1:06:25 PM   
notenome

 

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I've advocated that an isolated unit should have to make a morale/xp check. If it passes both it experiences no CV reduction. It would still loose morale every turn, making the checks harder to pass, and have increased attrition. This would make high xp/morale units much hardier.

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 1:18:22 PM   
notenome

 

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I've advocated that an isolated unit should have to make a morale/xp check. If it passes both it experiences no CV reduction. It would still loose morale every turn, making the checks harder to pass, and have increased attrition. This would make high xp/morale units much hardier.

(in reply to janh)
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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 5:27:53 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

In looking at the achtungpanzer website, they had total jagdpanther production estimated at 415. These game production figures show 4 times that # built. I wonder what was up with that?


There were some changes made to vehicle production over the course of various patches. However, as these are data changes, they only take effect when starting a new game. As this game has been going on for a very long time, they wouldn't have taken effect in this game.

I'm pretty sure the Jagdpanther was one of those changes. I know for sure that Panther D production was reduced by about 75% IIRC. A total of about 850 Panther Ds were built historically, but we can see in this game that 1722 were built. After the 80% production modifier and vehicles arriving via unit reinforcements, Panther D production should be about 25% of what it was in this game (1722 x 25% = 430).

< Message edited by Schmart -- 7/10/2012 5:30:32 PM >

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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 5:35:59 PM   
Schmart

 

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Idaho, would it be possible to post some shots of the aircraft, vehicle, and gun/squad losses as well?

It would also be interesting for Scar to post some shots of Soviet production and losses.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 7/10/2012 5:37:03 PM >

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RE: Endgame - 7/10/2012 5:43:07 PM   
Schmart

 

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Interesting to see from the production screens how some equipment and troops were produced but few (sometimes none) appear to have been used by units. The upgrade path or equipment distribution system could probably use some tweaking.

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 8:23:12 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Hmmmm, the Axis *can* win.

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 9:41:32 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Hmmmm, the Axis *can* win.


Silence, ye wretched Soviet--o-phile.

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/10/2012 11:06:25 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Hmmmm, the Axis *can* win.


Silence, ye wretched Soviet--o-phile.


Heyyyyyy......

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 617
RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 1:22:15 AM   
Ketza


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I make a motion to move this AAR to the top with Tarhunnas.

It is a well deserved spot!

< Message edited by Ketza -- 7/11/2012 1:23:03 AM >

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 1:33:11 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Seconded!

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 2:45:59 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Third!!

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:45:03 AM   
Scar23


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Hey Janh:
To answer a few of your questions, I was really hurt in 41. I lost 1/3 of the Russian army when the Finns cut Leningrad. It was also the best third, with experiance and decent moral. My Winter offensive was thus not as good as it could have been, but all things said, it was ok. I was able to push the Germans away from Moscow enough to have some breathing room, and I was able to inflict some losses and get the front near where I wanted for 42.

The problem was the Germans attacked for a month or so in 42, and were taking ghastly losses. I had good entrenchments, level 2 and 3, with good lines and secondary positions behind those, and some armor in reserve. Ed decided to sit 42 out, I was in no position to do much, so we both just sat and stared at each other for 42. Had the Germans attacked, he would have experianced good losses, and a more fluid battlefield for 43. But he didn't. Then in 43 when I was ready to go, I had to move him from his initial positions that he had worked on for over a year, and then just about every river from that point to the end of the game was another level 3 and 4 line I had to break. In addition, he had lots of strong panzer formations (as they didn't burn themselves out attacking me in 42), so when I did crack a hole, if I exploited, I would lose some armoered units. I was thus left with a grinding type of strategy, just grind forward, no real penatrations or isolations, just beat the Germans back with frontal attack after frontal attack with massed infantry corps. I had hoped to wear him down, thinking I could absorb the manpower losses better than he could. But that never happened. When the game ended, I would say our armies were fairly evenly matched in strength and capability. But he had great defensive terrain and forts, and I was having to make assaults were I would lose 5k or so and he would lose 1500.

I hope that answers your questions from the Russian perspective. Also, here are some screen shots.

Notice the air units that would not accept planes!

Scar

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:50:40 AM   
Scar23


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Plane problems.

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:53:03 AM   
Scar23


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planes




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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:53:37 AM   
Scar23


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tanks





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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:54:18 AM   
Scar23


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guns




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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:55:34 AM   
Scar23


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men




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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 6:59:48 AM   
Scar23


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I beleive we will be doing it all again switching sides. But the Germans are not feeling very confident!

Scar

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RE: Sep 1945 Endgame in sight - 7/11/2012 1:52:01 PM   
IdahoNYer


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quote:

Hmmmm, the Axis *can* win.

_____________________________



Aurelian - yep, the axis can win, but in 1945, not 1941.....

Perhaps now with the new alt victory conditions the Germans have a chance to get that decisive victory in 41/42, but to me the original victory conditions were pretty much a pipe dream in most PBEM.

I think most players in PBEM embark on what they think is a going to be a short "victorious" campaign, and when that doesn't happen in 41 or 42, abandon the field.


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RE: Endgame German air loss - 7/11/2012 2:01:58 PM   
IdahoNYer


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as requested, German air losses.

Throughout the war I was able to maintain a qualitative superiority in experience and air loss ratios were usually in the 5 to 1 range. German numbers gradually diminished and from mid 44 to end the Soviets were able to reduce that ratio significantly.

I did get the impression that the ME 262 jet did not perform escort missions - After I introduced them in AGC's area in mass, and all the sudden my bomber losses went sky high. After I moved some ME109s and FW190s back, the bomber losses were reduced.




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RE: Endgame destroyed units - 7/11/2012 2:05:59 PM   
IdahoNYer


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Destroyed units at endgame. As Scar said earlier - the losses the Soviets had in 41 were significant. Few units were destroyed after the 41 campaign...




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