Advance after Combat

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Rasputitsa
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Advance after Combat

Post by Rasputitsa »

Puzzled - I have units winning combats and forcing an enemy unit to retreat, but the attacking unit cannot enter the vacated hex across the hex face where the combat took place. I can detour the attacking unit around and enter the vacated hex from another direction, but that is burning up MPs.

Other units, not involved in the combat, can come through and enter the vacated hex, across the hex face where the combat occurred. It seems odd that a unit that has enough MPs to enter a vacated hex, by another route, cannot advance directly into the hex after winning a combat. [:)]

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76mm
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by 76mm »

I also don't understand this--it certainly seems that an attacker which forces a defender to retreat should be able to advance into the vacated hex.

Similarly (I think), there are many situations where one of my units is one hex away from an enemy unit and yet cannot advance directly toward it, it must first detour to another hex and only then enter the hex adjacent to the enemy. If it is not clear what I am talking about, I will try to post a screen shot later...
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Gandalf »

Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.

OK, are you saying that this is a rare occurence? It happens to me on a regular basis, probably almost every turn...
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Gandalf »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.

OK, are you saying that this is a rare occurence? It happens to me on a regular basis, probably almost every turn...

No, I'm suggesting that saved game files are far more useful than screen pics for the programmer/developers to reproduce the error and track down the errant code in a speedy manner. The faster they can track down and isolate a bug, the faster they can move on to other bugs... Bingo... We end up with a patch that much sooner or a patch with many more bugs fixed. Either way, we come out ahead.

If we cause them to have to take the time to individually reproduce every bug posted only in screen pics, we end up waiting longer for the bugs to be patched.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by 76mm »

OK, although I'm not sure if it is a bug or a "feature".

Anything, I think we've kind of hijacked Rasputitsa's thread, sorry, back to advancing after combat...
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by CarnageINC »

It depends on whether or not if your advancing into enemy ZOC.  If there are one enemy units the cost goes up then advancing into a clear hex.  As the number of enemy units and their overlapping ZOC increases so does the cost of MP.  If your advancing with Romanians well then, forget it, they don't like previously occupied territory, I think the MP is double what it normally is, worse if there is a enemy ZOC their trying to move through.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: 76mm
OK, although I'm not sure if it is a bug or a "feature".

Anything, I think we've kind of hijacked Rasputitsa's thread, sorry, back to advancing after combat...

I am playing 'Road to Kiev' and it has happened several times, I wasn't sure whether it is supposed to happen, although I would have thought that any unit that wins a combat over a hex should be able to enter the vacated hex. The attacker has already expended MPs in fighting the enemy unit in that hex, therefore, advance after combat should available after successful combat.

The more puzzling feature is that the attacking unit had enough MPs after combat to enter the vacated hex, but only after having detoured round and entered from another direction. It maybe something to do with other adjacent enemy units exerting ZOC, but if a unit is able to enter the hex, it should be possible through the hex face where the combat occurred.

I will try to provide screen-shots and saves if this is considered as an issue that needs attention. [:)]
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Rasputitsa »

Here's a try at a screen-shot, the German division (50th Inf), highlighted in red, has just forced the Russian unit which was in the hex to its right to retreat. The division can now only enter the vacated hex by detouring to the South (7 MPs), then recross the river. That is two river crossings and additional MPs to enter a hex it has just won combat in.

The German unit, one hex South-east of 50th Div, can move directly into the vacated hex with 5 MPs.

There seems to be a prohibition on German units crossing the hex-face that the combat took place through, even though there are enough MPs to move into the vacated hex by other routes. The German unit to the left of 50th Div also has to make the detour to enter the recently vacated hex.

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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by glvaca »

From the looks of it is the ZOC for the Airborn unit to the North that makes it cheaper in MP's to go around.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: glvaca
From the looks of it is the ZOC for the Airborn unit to the North that makes it cheaper in MP's to go around.

Yes I also thought it was something to do with moving in and out of ZOCs, but the 50th Div has already expended MPs attacking a Russian unit in that hex and therefore should not be charged again to make the move. I can see that the penalty might be moving directly from one ZOC into another ZOC, but a victorious CV 10 unit being stopped by a CV 1 unit?

The move that will work (at cost of extra MPs) still requires 50th Div to move out of a ZOC, then back into a ZOC, but with two extra river crossings. A direct move into the vacated hex should not cost more MPs than that and there should be some advantage in advancing after combat. The attacking unit has already been fighting in the combat hex. [:)]
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Gandalf »

Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.
Yes, I realise that MPs are more an expression of time and if this behaviour is a result, well so be it. However, any way you look at it, the attacking unit has taken time/movement to win a combat in that hex, forced the defending unit to retreat and therefore should not have to have to suffer much more of a penalty to occupy the hex.

It just seems odd to see a large unit dancing around, trying to enter a hex that it has already 'won', but I suppose in a complicated system there are bound to be anomalies. [:)]
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Montbrun »

As others have said, it's a function of ZOCs and MPs left over after the combat.

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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by GBS »

The designers of WitE seem to have left no stone unturned so I am sure that there is an excellent explanation so I hope that Joel or a tester in the know chimes in here. I do know that the engine always finds and shows the cheapest path from one hex to another so the direct move to the east above must have cost more for that particular unit but I sure would like to know why.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Montbrun »

I'm a tester - all of this was debated ad nauseum - I think the system as it is works very well.

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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by PyleDriver »

This is the beauty of the game. After I attack the unit do I have the follow up units to advance...Wait until you have to get a bridgehead over a major river. You'll really need your thinking cap on...
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by MengJiao »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.
Yes, I realise that MPs are more an expression of time and if this behaviour is a result, well so be it. However, any way you look at it, the attacking unit has taken time/movement to win a combat in that hex, forced the defending unit to retreat and therefore should not have to have to suffer much more of a penalty to occupy the hex.

It just seems odd to see a large unit dancing around, trying to enter a hex that it has already 'won', but I suppose in a complicated system there are bound to be anomalies. [:)]

Maybe its not that much of an anomaly. Maybe the defending unit just caused a delay and withdrew.
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by PyleDriver »

I'm really looking to put this question to rest. If a unit moves, then attacks, how fresh is it to move forward agian? Thus the MP factor...Live with it, and think ahead...
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RE: Advance after Combat

Post by Gandalf »

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I'm really looking to put this question to rest. If a unit moves, then attacks, how fresh is it to move forward agian? Thus the MP factor...Live with it, and think ahead...

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