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Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 12:23:50 AM   
Rasputitsa


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Puzzled - I have units winning combats and forcing an enemy unit to retreat, but the attacking unit cannot enter the vacated hex across the hex face where the combat took place. I can detour the attacking unit around and enter the vacated hex from another direction, but that is burning up MPs.

Other units, not involved in the combat, can come through and enter the vacated hex, across the hex face where the combat occurred. It seems odd that a unit that has enough MPs to enter a vacated hex, by another route, cannot advance directly into the hex after winning a combat.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:14:39 AM   
76mm


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I also don't understand this--it certainly seems that an attacker which forces a defender to retreat should be able to advance into the vacated hex.

Similarly (I think), there are many situations where one of my units is one hex away from an enemy unit and yet cannot advance directly toward it, it must first detour to another hex and only then enter the hex adjacent to the enemy. If it is not clear what I am talking about, I will try to post a screen shot later...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:19:30 AM   
Gandalf

 

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Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:32:18 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.


OK, are you saying that this is a rare occurence? It happens to me on a regular basis, probably almost every turn...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:44:33 AM   
Gandalf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Posted save game files would be better than a screen pic.


OK, are you saying that this is a rare occurence? It happens to me on a regular basis, probably almost every turn...



No, I'm suggesting that saved game files are far more useful than screen pics for the programmer/developers to reproduce the error and track down the errant code in a speedy manner. The faster they can track down and isolate a bug, the faster they can move on to other bugs... Bingo... We end up with a patch that much sooner or a patch with many more bugs fixed. Either way, we come out ahead.

If we cause them to have to take the time to individually reproduce every bug posted only in screen pics, we end up waiting longer for the bugs to be patched.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:08:29 AM   
76mm


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OK, although I'm not sure if it is a bug or a "feature".

Anything, I think we've kind of hijacked Rasputitsa's thread, sorry, back to advancing after combat...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:45:28 AM   
CarnageINC


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It depends on whether or not if your advancing into enemy ZOC.  If there are one enemy units the cost goes up then advancing into a clear hex.  As the number of enemy units and their overlapping ZOC increases so does the cost of MP.  If your advancing with Romanians well then, forget it, they don't like previously occupied territory, I think the MP is double what it normally is, worse if there is a enemy ZOC their trying to move through.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:51:50 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
OK, although I'm not sure if it is a bug or a "feature".

Anything, I think we've kind of hijacked Rasputitsa's thread, sorry, back to advancing after combat...


I am playing 'Road to Kiev' and it has happened several times, I wasn't sure whether it is supposed to happen, although I would have thought that any unit that wins a combat over a hex should be able to enter the vacated hex. The attacker has already expended MPs in fighting the enemy unit in that hex, therefore, advance after combat should available after successful combat.

The more puzzling feature is that the attacking unit had enough MPs after combat to enter the vacated hex, but only after having detoured round and entered from another direction. It maybe something to do with other adjacent enemy units exerting ZOC, but if a unit is able to enter the hex, it should be possible through the hex face where the combat occurred.

I will try to provide screen-shots and saves if this is considered as an issue that needs attention.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 10:23:02 AM   
Rasputitsa


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Here's a try at a screen-shot, the German division (50th Inf), highlighted in red, has just forced the Russian unit which was in the hex to its right to retreat. The division can now only enter the vacated hex by detouring to the South (7 MPs), then recross the river. That is two river crossings and additional MPs to enter a hex it has just won combat in.

The German unit, one hex South-east of 50th Div, can move directly into the vacated hex with 5 MPs.

There seems to be a prohibition on German units crossing the hex-face that the combat took place through, even though there are enough MPs to move into the vacated hex by other routes. The German unit to the left of 50th Div also has to make the detour to enter the recently vacated hex.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 12/28/2010 10:27:03 AM >

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 10:26:14 AM   
glvaca

 

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From the looks of it is the ZOC for the Airborn unit to the North that makes it cheaper in MP's to go around.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 10:39:15 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca
From the looks of it is the ZOC for the Airborn unit to the North that makes it cheaper in MP's to go around.


Yes I also thought it was something to do with moving in and out of ZOCs, but the 50th Div has already expended MPs attacking a Russian unit in that hex and therefore should not be charged again to make the move. I can see that the penalty might be moving directly from one ZOC into another ZOC, but a victorious CV 10 unit being stopped by a CV 1 unit?

The move that will work (at cost of extra MPs) still requires 50th Div to move out of a ZOC, then back into a ZOC, but with two extra river crossings. A direct move into the vacated hex should not cost more MPs than that and there should be some advantage in advancing after combat. The attacking unit has already been fighting in the combat hex.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 2:43:03 PM   
Gandalf

 

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Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 2:55:26 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.

Yes, I realise that MPs are more an expression of time and if this behaviour is a result, well so be it. However, any way you look at it, the attacking unit has taken time/movement to win a combat in that hex, forced the defending unit to retreat and therefore should not have to have to suffer much more of a penalty to occupy the hex.

It just seems odd to see a large unit dancing around, trying to enter a hex that it has already 'won', but I suppose in a complicated system there are bound to be anomalies.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 3:01:38 PM   
Brad Hunter


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As others have said, it's a function of ZOCs and MPs left over after the combat.

Brad

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 3:06:18 PM   
GBS

 

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The designers of WitE seem to have left no stone unturned so I am sure that there is an excellent explanation so I hope that Joel or a tester in the know chimes in here. I do know that the engine always finds and shows the cheapest path from one hex to another so the direct move to the east above must have cost more for that particular unit but I sure would like to know why.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 6:41:58 PM   
Brad Hunter


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I'm a tester - all of this was debated ad nauseum - I think the system as it is works very well.

Brad

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 6:52:29 PM   
PyleDriver


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This is the beauty of the game. After I attack the unit do I have the follow up units to advance...Wait until you have to get a bridgehead over a major river. You'll really need your thinking cap on...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 6:57:26 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf
Just an opinion:

Unlike other games, I think the designers are assessing the attack and movement MPs as units of "time", meaning that the "time" charges are assessed separately and the attack MPs expended do not include the movement MPs but they are all coming from the same starting MP amount. This function is also being used in a similar but unrelated way when air bases move and use some of their MPs, it is reflected back into the air units themselves as a loss of MPs/range or "time" units. It does seem rather odd to do it this way since we are all used to the attacking units taking possession of the retreated unit's hex but then again, the MPs assigned to the units is higher than other games of similar scale which makes up for it in some respects.

Yes, I realise that MPs are more an expression of time and if this behaviour is a result, well so be it. However, any way you look at it, the attacking unit has taken time/movement to win a combat in that hex, forced the defending unit to retreat and therefore should not have to have to suffer much more of a penalty to occupy the hex.

It just seems odd to see a large unit dancing around, trying to enter a hex that it has already 'won', but I suppose in a complicated system there are bound to be anomalies.


Maybe its not that much of an anomaly. Maybe the defending unit just caused a delay and withdrew.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:05:29 PM   
PyleDriver


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I'm really looking to put this question to rest. If a unit moves, then attacks, how fresh is it to move forward agian? Thus the MP factor...Live with it, and think ahead...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 7:06:31 PM   
Gandalf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I'm really looking to put this question to rest. If a unit moves, then attacks, how fresh is it to move forward agian? Thus the MP factor...Live with it, and think ahead...


+1

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:37:01 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
As others have said, it's a function of ZOCs and MPs left over after the combat.

I see the possibilities of ZOC affecting movement etc., but my point is that the unit did have the MPs to move into the vacated hex (and did so later), however, only after detour and two additional river crossings and not through the hex-face of attack (some of the earlier MPs have been used in attacking over that hex-face). I am suprised that it could not just enter the hex after combat as it had been successfully fighting there, it's no big deal just a query.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:39:53 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Maybe its not that much of an anomaly. Maybe the defending unit just caused a delay and withdrew.


That might have had some significance, but for the fact that the attacking unit had the MPs to enter the hex, it's just that a detour was required to enter the hex it had just been successfully fighting in.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/28/2010 8:40:55 PM   
Rasputitsa


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However, if the testers feel there is no issue, then so be it.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 7:36:56 AM   
76mm


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I think an explanation would be nice, because what you're explaining does not make sense (and I've seen it too).

Could someone please explain why this makes sense, because I don't get it: "...the unit did have the MPs to move into the vacated hex (and did so later), however, only after detour and two additional river crossings and not through the hex-face of attack (some of the earlier MPs have been used in attacking over that hex-face)."

< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/29/2010 7:38:11 AM >

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 12:59:22 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think an explanation would be nice, because what you're explaining does not make sense (and I've seen it too).

Could someone please explain why this makes sense, because I don't get it: "...the unit did have the MPs to move into the vacated hex (and did so later), however, only after detour and two additional river crossings and not through the hex-face of attack (some of the earlier MPs have been used in attacking over that hex-face)."


I asked the question, can do no more, depends on whether it becomes an issue for more people as time goes on. Lived with quirky WIR and liked it a lot, it would surprising, with something as complicated as this, that there would not be some anomalies and the cure can be worse than the problem.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 1:12:17 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think an explanation would be nice, because what you're explaining does not make sense (and I've seen it too).

Could someone please explain why this makes sense, because I don't get it: "...the unit did have the MPs to move into the vacated hex (and did so later), however, only after detour and two additional river crossings and not through the hex-face of attack (some of the earlier MPs have been used in attacking over that hex-face)."


Consider what's going on at the micro level. The system is very intuitive if you know what a given action means at the Reg/Bat/Kp level and that MP's in essence is a measure of time. The most important part to remember is that the counter represents everything, combat units, support units, divisional trains etc.

A positive combat result means that that your combat units (a very small share of the total division) has destroyed/outflanked enough of his combat units (again, a small share of the total) to make his current position untenable, hence the retreat. Also, at a micro level, only your immediate attacking and exploitation forces are physically in a small part of the other hex (why he can retreat successfully). The rest of your unit is all still in physically position, spread out over the current hex.

So far so good, however, full control has not yet been established, meaning, you can't put everybody in a road column and march them forward, fat dumb and happy. If you decide to move forward you'll need security and screening forces, your road columns will use combat spacing instead of "normal" march spacing etc. Hence the added MP to move into a newly conquered hex, to represent the added time all these measures take or to represent how they drastically slow down the possible movement rate.


If you are in an enemy ZOC and want to move to another hex also in the enemy ZOC, additional things are going on.

Most of the new hex is in artillery range. You have to secure your flank to prevent raids. You have a very high probability of enemy contact, which means you need additional scouting, security etc. measures.

In micro this means that part of your forces will need time throw up a screen, probably a Reg, as another Reg advances into the empty hex, while the third Reg is guarding the current border. This is all in combat movement so comparatively slow. Your support columns when moving will need wider spacings, and will be restricted to the far side of the hex when moving forward to minimise the danger from artillery, radically increasing congestion and transit times, slowing down the advance even further. At the end, the Reg that was screening the current hex gets pulled after the rest, the bulk probably constituting the new reserve while weak screening forces cover the "hanging" flank/rear.

IMO it's very logical that the detour is faster, IF you can road march most of the way over secured roads.





< Message edited by MechFO -- 12/29/2010 1:19:43 PM >

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 1:28:27 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I think an explanation would be nice, because what you're explaining does not make sense (and I've seen it too).

Could someone please explain why this makes sense, because I don't get it: "...the unit did have the MPs to move into the vacated hex (and did so later), however, only after detour and two additional river crossings and not through the hex-face of attack (some of the earlier MPs have been used in attacking over that hex-face)."


Think about it in operational terms. The unit is fatigued after combat and has two movement options for advancing into the recently vacated hex:

1. To move across the front of a dug in elite airborne unit and take fire in the flank (read "ZOC"), or;

2. Take a detour across two rivers and avoid taking fire (read "No ZOC").

Any wise commander would take the second option and maybe this is what the game is modelling to some extent? A fresh infantry unit moving up from behind has the energy and ammo to suppress the Paratroopers as it moves past, so it can overcome the ZOC effect and enter the hex directly. Cavalry and armour move faster, so they can also exploit with fewer losses...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 1:53:47 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
IMO it's very logical that the detour is faster, IF you can road march most of the way over secured roads.


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Any wise commander would take the second option and maybe this is what the game is modelling to some extent? A fresh infantry unit moving up from behind has the energy and ammo to suppress the Paratroopers as it moves past, so it can overcome the ZOC effect and enter the hex directly.


hmmm, I don't really find either of these explanations very convincing....

I disagree that crossing two rivers would be expected to be easier than crossing into the ZOC of paratroop unit. After these hexes represent ten miles, and the attacker already closed to the paratroops when he attacked the enemy and forced them back. Presumably if the attacker now wanted to detour around the paratroopers he would screen the paratroopers to the north and move the bulk of the division via the south side of the hex occupied by the now retreated enemy. Before you argue "gee maybe the south side of the hex is not secure" then why on earth would he then want to conduct a river crossing into the south side of the hex?

It seems to me like a unit which has routed another unit or forced it to retreat would be very well placed to continue the advance and occupy the vacated space. Maybe such advance should not be "free" (MP-wise), but it seems odd to charge for full ZoC entry when the attacker has already done much of what the ZoC MP charge is intended for...

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 1:59:39 PM   
MengJiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
IMO it's very logical that the detour is faster, IF you can road march most of the way over secured roads.


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Any wise commander would take the second option and maybe this is what the game is modelling to some extent? A fresh infantry unit moving up from behind has the energy and ammo to suppress the Paratroopers as it moves past, so it can overcome the ZOC effect and enter the hex directly.


hmmm, I don't really find either of these explanations very convincing....

I disagree that crossing two rivers would be expected to be easier than crossing into the ZOC of paratroop unit. After these hexes represent ten miles, and the attacker already closed to the paratroops when he attacked the enemy and forced them back. Presumably if the attacker now wanted to detour around the paratroopers he would screen the paratroopers to the north and move the bulk of the division via the south side of the hex occupied by the now retreated enemy. Before you argue "gee maybe the south side of the hex is not secure" then why on earth would he then want to conduct a river crossing into the south side of the hex?

It seems to me like a unit which has routed another unit or forced it to retreat would be very well placed to continue the advance and occupy the vacated space. Maybe such advance should not be "free" (MP-wise), but it seems odd to charge for full ZoC entry when the attacker has already done much of what the ZoC MP charge is intended for...



It could be that the game imposes a penalty on the attacking unit in some cases. Programmatically, the attacking unit receives a "delay"...ie it routed the enemy but it took extra time and or the attacker was disorganized or dispersed along a sub-hex-level flanking route. The delay applies only to entering the hex where the delaying action took place. This would look less odd if it happened at the end of a move and there weren't other units or options around.

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RE: Advance after Combat - 12/29/2010 2:06:00 PM   
dlazov66


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It's all about the movement points, there is no 'delay', it cost MP to hasty/deliberate, route, retreat, enter enemy ZOC, move into enemy hexes etc.

So if you can't move into a vacated enemy hex then most likely you don't have enough MP pure and simple, no magic.


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