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How hard can you push your troops with regard to fatigue ?

 
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How hard can you push your troops with regard to fatigue ? - 12/19/2010 6:48:05 AM   
Repsol

 

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Hello...
I'm playing the road to Minsk scenario as german. My armoured corps are able to advance a great distance each turm but their fatigue at the end of
the turn are very high...80-90 percent. They recover to about 20 for the next turn and i can continue the advance with no problem...What i don't know
however is if it is considered a good idea to push the fatiguevalues that high even if they do recover...Are they at a terrible disadvantage i the russians
would be able to mount a counterstrike in their part of the turn ? In the road to Minsk scenario they are not very likely to do that (i'm playing on normal
difficulty) but i guess later on they will...
I understand that this may depend on the situation but as a general rule what fatigue levels would be considered to high when playing
against the AI or in a PBEM ?

Thanks !
Post #: 1
RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 6:59:37 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Are they at a terrible disadvantage i the russians
would be able to mount a counterstrike in their part of the turn ?


Yes, your fatigue recovery happens during your logistic phase. You can loose big part of your CV during the combat initiated by enemy. Up to 30%. Also fatigue means higher break down rates.

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Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Repsol)
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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 2:14:22 PM   
ComradeP

 

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As Pavel indicated, you normally want to take into account a drop of 30% in CV when planning moves and guestimating the enemy's capabilities to counterattack. A single Rifle division isn't going to dislodge even a fatiqued Panzer division, but if about 3 or 4 show up, you could be in trouble depending on how good the divisions are.

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WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 3:52:43 PM   
Repsol

 

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hello, Helpless and ComradeP...

Do you think that its ok to keep pushing the troops to high fatigue levels for several turns in a row ?
Will that have a negative effect on unit morale ? Helpless already mentioned higher breakdown rates..
anything else..? at what fatiguelevel do you stop using them and let them sit the rest of the turn out if:

1. You espect a conterattack ?
2. Enemy counterattack is not likely ?

Or should i use them all the way until their movementpoints run out ?

Thanks !

(in reply to ComradeP)
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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 4:23:24 PM   
ComradeP

 

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If I expect a counterattack, I want at least two friendly hexes between me and the nearest enemy hex as the Axis, preferably three between my unit and the nearest enemy unit. Soviet morale isn't too great, so not that many units will actually make their morale checks for moving into the second hex I control and even less will actually be able to attack.

The mediocre Soviet morale does have as an "advantage" that their mobile units will be less fatiqued after moving, as it's often a miracle if they can move more than three hexes through enemy terrain in an enemy ZOC.

For the Axis, the main thing to keep in mind that you want to keep your mobile units in terrain that favours them. Don't try to hold a line with them, just park them behind the line somewhere as a reaction force when defending. When attacking, try to keep some distance between you and the nearest Soviet units, possibly moving back after capturing some terrain to increase the distance. In the first months of the 1941 campaign, the chance that a significant number of Soviet units can move through two hostile hexes to reach your unit and launch a deliberate attack is pretty much zero. Six Rifle divisions can give a mobile division an ugly surprise, but if only one or two can reach you, units with ~90% fatique can still stop them.

I try to pull mobile units out of the line for a turn once every four turns, but it can be very difficult to balance the need to strike deep into the Soviet controlled area each turn, and keeping your units in a decent shape. I would advise against an "everything or nothing" strategy where you push units to the limits each turn, as the result of that strategy will be "nothing" by default as the Axis can't win in 1941 and you need mobile units for 1942 and later years.

Aside from the distance in hexes I try to keep between my spearhead and the nearest concentration of Soviet units, I just remove 1/3 of the CV of mobile units as a personal planning tool for deciding whether their position is risky. I mostly check their actual fatique levels when I'm attacking with them after they've moved a significant distance.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/19/2010 4:25:03 PM >


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Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 4:30:53 PM   
Repsol

 

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Thanks, ComradeP !

Very helpful information...

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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/19/2010 9:28:15 PM   
henri51


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it is important to specify whether you are thinking of fatigue levels at the beginning of the move or AFTER they have moved and attacked. In the latter case, it is normal for them to be fatigued, but if your Panzer units are at high fatigue before you do anything with them, you should be careful. Note that a unit is severely penalized recovery-wise if it is adjacent to an enemy unit at the end of the turn, and most of the time a unit can recover completely if it is far from the enemy and adjacent to a rail hex at the end of a turn.The worst thing you an do is to leave a Panzer unit adjacent to an enemy unit when it is at 90% fatigue: if it survives the Soviet move, it will be practically useless on the next move. (And while you are at it, you might as well have a HQ on top of it so the HQ can be displaced when the panzer retreats and lose all of its supplies making all the sister units of the Panzer useless as well...).

Henri

(in reply to Repsol)
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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/20/2010 9:52:27 AM   
karonagames


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quote:

it is important to specify whether you are thinking of fatigue levels at the beginning of the move or AFTER they have moved and attacked. In the latter case, it is normal for them to be fatigued, but if your Panzer units are at high fatigue before you do anything with them, you should be careful. Note that a unit is severely penalized recovery-wise if it is adjacent to an enemy unit at the end of the turn, and most of the time a unit can recover completely if it is far from the enemy and adjacent to a rail hex at the end of a turn.The worst thing you an do is to leave a Panzer unit adjacent to an enemy unit when it is at 90% fatigue: if it survives the Soviet move, it will be practically useless on the next move. (And while you are at it, you might as well have a HQ on top of it so the HQ can be displaced when the panzer retreats and lose all of its supplies making all the sister units of the Panzer useless as well...).

Henri


These are some very important points, and something I still need to improve on. The the Road to Smolensk AAR at Armchair General, Flavio concentrated 9-12 divisions on some of my fatigued panzers, and did a lot of damage, that needed 2 turns of rest to recover from.

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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/20/2010 8:18:14 PM   
Repsol

 

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Hello , henry51...

My initial concern was the fatiguelevel at the end of the turn. You are absolutely right though i should
not ignore their fatiguelevel at the start of the turn either. If i understand it right i may still use
a unit with fairly high fatiguevalue at the start of the turn but i should be avare of the fact that my
unit will have its CV lowered by as much as 30 percent dependent on how high their fatiguevalue is.
Also that they will suffer from higher breakdown rates.
Both you and comradeP mentioned that i should try to end my turn with my units one or a few hexes away
from the enemy to get better recovery...I'm sure its in the manual but i missed that...THANKS !

One question though - Will the better recovery make up for the hexes 'lost' when pulling back from
adjecent enemy units..? When playing the road to Minsk scenario i will capture Brest Litovsk, Kaunas,
Vilnius and Minsk no problem but as of yet i have only been able to take 2 of the 3 objectives to the far
east (Vitebesk, Mogilev, Zhlobin). I get very close to take them all but usually my MP run out just infront of
the last objective...I'm there but i have no points left to attack with...

My point is...if a pull back my front units say 2 hexes from the adjacent russians they will be even
further away from their last objectives...Will their incresed recovery give them enough movementpoints
to make up for the incresed distance after pulling back ?

Thanks for your help !

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 9
RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/20/2010 8:50:46 PM   
ComradeP

 

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That would depend on what the enemy does Repsol. For the German mobile units, 2 additional hexes shouldn't really be a problem as they have good morale that greatly limits the penalty of moving into more than 1 enemy controlled hex. If there's no enemy unit around, or no credible enemy unit, you could consider not pulling it back/pushing it as far forward as you can. In more risky areas, I'd suggest keeping some distance between you and the enemy.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Repsol)
Post #: 10
RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/20/2010 9:10:59 PM   
Repsol

 

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Thanks, ComradeP !

I will have another go at this scenarios and see if a can take them all...



I can only agree with most people here...The support from the testers and developers are OUTSTANDING !
Thanks !

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Post #: 11
RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/20/2010 11:16:00 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Repsol

Hello , henry51...


One question though - Will the better recovery make up for the hexes 'lost' when pulling back from
adjecent enemy units..? When playing the road to Minsk scenario i will capture Brest Litovsk, Kaunas,
Vilnius and Minsk no problem but as of yet i have only been able to take 2 of the 3 objectives to the far
east (Vitebesk, Mogilev, Zhlobin). I get very close to take them all but usually my MP run out just infront of
the last objective...I'm there but i have no points left to attack with...

My point is...if a pull back my front units say 2 hexes from the adjacent russians they will be even
further away from their last objectives...Will their incresed recovery give them enough movementpoints
to make up for the incresed distance after pulling back ?

Thanks for your help !


The Road to Minsk is so short that you really don't have time to pull back your units for supply and refit, and the AI is unlikely in this scenario to counterattack, and anyway you won't have time to bring them back if you pull them out. But the question you raise is a true dilemma: when is it better to pull back?

Even in the Smolensk scenario, I have not pulled back any forward Panzers yet, but I have worked hard to keep them at least within supply range, and they still pack a pretty good whallop on move 9. I guess the answer is pull them back when they risk being unable to do their job, and you risk losing more by leaving them than by pulling them back, but this is easier to say than to do...

Henri

(in reply to Repsol)
Post #: 12
RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/21/2010 4:39:02 PM   
Repsol

 

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Ok...Thanks henri51

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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/21/2010 6:21:33 PM   
roflbinflood

 

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I tend to push my pixeltruppen all through 41, till they're either dead or marching on Red Square.


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RE: How hard can you push your troops with regard to fa... - 12/21/2010 6:50:33 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jhak
I tend to push my pixeltruppen all through 41, till they're either dead or marching on Red Square.


While you're drinking a 12 year-old pixelscotch in your pixelbunker


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