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TOAW supply Bug

 
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TOAW supply Bug - 12/16/2010 6:40:06 PM   
pionier

 

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Happens with version 3.2 and 3.4.0.201

My opponment destroyed my only two railway brigdes through the front. I thought that there should be 25% supply...
But actually it is 100%. Take a look at the picture:



As you can see there shouldn't be 100% supply. You can proove this bug with any test secenario creating such a situation. The game does not differ between an direct link for the check of the supply.

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/16/2010 8:02:28 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pionier
My opponment destroyed my only two railway brigdes through the front. I thought that there should be 25% supply...
But actually it is 100%. Take a look at the picture:

The supply level doesn't decrease instantly the second the bridge is destroyed. Usually the supply level decreases start on the turns following the dropped bridge(s). Is this screenshot of a subsequent turn or the same turn the bridge(s) are dropped?



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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/16/2010 9:14:54 PM   
Telumar


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Pionier is Player 1 and his opponent (Rums) is Player 2. Screenshot is from beginning of Pionier's turn, played under 3.2. In the previous player 2 turn the bridges got destroyed. So there should be a supply drop already.

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/17/2010 12:21:46 AM   
Panama


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Did the supply level remain that high or eventually drop? But like he said, it shouldn't be full.

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/17/2010 12:23:15 AM >

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/17/2010 8:29:11 AM   
pionier

 

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... no it only drops when the small brigde two hex north of chudoyo is detroyed. Then you will see next turn the supply fall in the near of nova ladoga.

You can try it. for supply distribution it is enough to got in the hex next to you a railwail. as you may see in the next picture



and here you may see the impact when you ever thought to cut the enemy of supply while taction the railway junction....



Try it yourself it won't take so much longer then writing a post...

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/17/2010 12:35:43 PM   
Panama


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Nice, the supply does a hop to the next rail hex like it is connected.

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/17/2010 4:51:08 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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This is a problem with Old Supply only. And, as was noted, that's the way it's always worked.

I can happily report that New Supply does it right. See the attached screenshot:




Attachment (1)

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RE: TOAW supply Bug - 12/17/2010 4:57:44 PM   
Panama


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Wow, never noticed it jumped rails in 3.2. I just thought it didn't bother with blown bridges. Which is why I have not bothered with 3.2 supply since the release of the 3.4 patches.

< Message edited by Panama -- 12/17/2010 4:59:51 PM >

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RE: high supply - 12/22/2010 2:03:05 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Unrelated and probably not worthy of its own thread, 'high supply' doesn't work anymore? I tried a couple old COW scenarios and switching 'high' on/off didn't change anything. Let several turns run, and closed and restarted, but still the supply level stayed the same.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 1:34:02 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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And another thing...........here we have a supply unit that doesn't seem to be putting out any supply. Maybe I don't understand how supply units work or something but I kind of expected higher levels of supply immediately around the supply unit ( radius of 4 ). Anybody else notice that their supply units don't work?




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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 3:43:21 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

And another thing...........here we have a supply unit that doesn't seem to be putting out any supply. Maybe I don't understand how supply units work or something but I kind of expected higher levels of supply immediately around the supply unit ( radius of 4 ). Anybody else notice that their supply units don't work?

As far as I know, the values of a mobile supply unit never show on the map

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 4:51:04 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I've run tests on that and Silvanski is correct. For the supply units:

They increase the Supply Level in each supplied location that can trace a path no longer than the Supply Radius to the Supply unit. Additionally, Supply units multiply supply distribution to adjacent Cooperative units by 1.5. There is no effect on Unsupplied locations.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 7:24:26 AM   
Telumar


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Larry, have you moved the supply unit before you made the screenshot? If so, then it's effect will show up in the next turn.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 1:33:12 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar
Larry, have you moved the supply unit before you made the screenshot? If so, then it's effect will show up in the next turn.

The screenshot was at the beginning of turn 4 before any thing had moved. So he ( the supply unit ) was there from the end of turn 3 until the screenshot was taken and I expected to see the supply level higher immediately around the supply unit like what happens in FITE. And if the supply levels don't increase visibly on the map then I'm confused as to how in the world the supply unit is supposed to work. I guess.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:19:14 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar
Larry, have you moved the supply unit before you made the screenshot? If so, then it's effect will show up in the next turn.

The screenshot was at the beginning of turn 4 before any thing had moved. So he ( the supply unit ) was there from the end of turn 3 until the screenshot was taken and I expected to see the supply level higher immediately around the supply unit like what happens in FITE. And if the supply levels don't increase visibly on the map then I'm confused as to how in the world the supply unit is supposed to work. I guess.


I don't even see the supply level appear on the map in FiTE within what should be the supply unit's range. I'm looking at it right now and the supply unit is within two movement points of a railhead, yet two movement points down the road, beyond the supply unit, the supply is not displayed at the level it should be (full). I'm thinking it never has been displayed. So, yeah, how do you know if the supply level really is being elevated because of the supply unit without constantly trying to do math on a units past and current supply? Do you just assume it's being elevated without any verification?

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:40:01 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

And another thing...........here we have a supply unit that doesn't seem to be putting out any supply. Maybe I don't understand how supply units work or something but I kind of expected higher levels of supply immediately around the supply unit ( radius of 4 ). Anybody else notice that their supply units don't work?





This shot doesn't give us enough info to tell what the values should be.

My tests indicate that supply units are working - both in New and Old Supply Rules.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:42:15 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

And another thing...........here we have a supply unit that doesn't seem to be putting out any supply. Maybe I don't understand how supply units work or something but I kind of expected higher levels of supply immediately around the supply unit ( radius of 4 ). Anybody else notice that their supply units don't work?

As far as I know, the values of a mobile supply unit never show on the map


The increases within a supply radius of the supply units do appear on the map display. The boost for being adjacent don't - like the boost for being adjacent to an HQ.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:49:53 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Here's a shot of a location beyond the range of any SU.




Attachment (1)

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:50:05 PM   
ogar

 

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Larry, Panama,

I can confirm that supply units do increase supply. A couple of weeks ago, I got curious and re-ran a turn in 3.4.191 after I had pulled all supply units back to the main supply point. The effect was clear and dramatic.

Also, I dimly recall from somewhere that you are not supposed to dig in your supply units -- 'makes the trucks slower ?', I dunno, but that may also be happening in Larry's example.

And what drove me to make my experiment, was I too wondered if supply units were doing anything. I found out that what you think is supply radius (new rules) is often overestimating it -- remember the 50% density cost, plus terrain and environment costs. So instead of using the documentation's example and placing a supply unit 2*supply radius from a supply point, I try to keep the unit at about 1.5*radius from the point. So far, that seems to be working.

As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units. Essentially, if you get the supply unit placed within the [1.5*] radius, ordinary units that would be at 60% of supply without any supply unit, will now be at about 80% (and those at 40% will now be at 60%). BUT where a unit is unsupplied, it is unsupplied even with a supply unit a hex or two away -- those badlands stop 'em cold.

And sadly, Panama, I tried, but I could not get a chain of units working -- they help, but there's no magic relaying of suppply past 1 unit in the chain.

HTH

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 6:52:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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And here's the same location the turn after a SU was moved there.




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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 7:00:27 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

Also, I dimly recall from somewhere that you are not supposed to dig in your supply units -- 'makes the trucks slower ?', I dunno, but that may also be happening in Larry's example.


I'm sure this is wrong.

quote:

And what drove me to make my experiment, was I too wondered if supply units were doing anything. I found out that what you think is supply radius (new rules) is often overestimating it -- remember the 50% density cost, plus terrain and environment costs. So instead of using the documentation's example and placing a supply unit 2*supply radius from a supply point, I try to keep the unit at about 1.5*radius from the point. So far, that seems to be working.


Under new supply rules, the radius is in MPs, not hexes.

quote:

As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units.


Silvanski was mistaken. The boost is visible on the map display.

quote:

Essentially, if you get the supply unit placed within the [1.5*] radius, ordinary units that would be at 60% of supply without any supply unit, will now be at about 80% (and those at 40% will now be at 60%).


The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.

quote:

BUT where a unit is unsupplied, it is unsupplied even with a supply unit a hex or two away -- those badlands stop 'em cold.


This is correct. Supply Units are not supply sources.

quote:

And sadly, Panama, I tried, but I could not get a chain of units working -- they help, but there's no magic relaying of suppply past 1 unit in the chain.


Correct.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 8:08:10 PM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.



One supply radius. So if the supply radius were 4 movement points it would reduce the distance by 4 movement points?






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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 9:00:57 PM   
ogar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



The effect is to reduce the distance from the SP by one supply radius.



One supply radius. So if the supply radius were 4 movement points it would reduce the distance by 4 movement points?






Remember that those MPs are for a virtual motorized supply unit with a density penalty; my approach is that distance shown on the map as in your example is the max of the suppply radius.

And dont forget that everything else -- HQs, RR lines, etc. -- impact the supply number, so you may not 'see it' but the supply unit effect is there.
What I was trying to say above seeing its effect is that there is no easy way to see this -- other than doing what Curtis did, and what I did -- set up without the supply unit, snapshot, then set up supply unit, and snapshot and compare. There's no way I can do in an on-going game.

What I do during a game is like what's in your picture -- use a motorized unit to estimate, than trim my estimate by a guess on density, supply-net conditions, , etc. and use the reduced estimate as the best guess on supply radius.

If you really do want to dig into the effects of supply unit, do what Curtis demonstrated but with a sal from a scenario that you know well. I think it's worth the effort if you really want to dig into this.

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RE: high supply - 12/23/2010 11:49:24 PM   
Panama


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In my example there are no units between the supply unit and the last hex of the arrow. The last hex of the arrow is within the four movement point radius given to the Germans. According to what I've read/been told, that last hex should have supply as though it were four movement points from the railhead. That would be a supply level of 40, just like the hex directly to the southwest of the supply unit on the destroyed rail and that should be displayed on the map. Yet it is displayed as having a level of 34. What am I not understanding?

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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 1:13:01 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

And here's the same location the turn after a SU was moved there.


I see what you posted in those shots, but I've run the same test and gotten different results. In this shot, this scenario has an effective supply capacity of 67, and the supply radius is 4 (old supply rules). In this example, there is no increase for the supply unit being there.




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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 1:31:01 AM   
sPzAbt653


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um ... maybe it can't raise the supply above the highest level, and since it is already there no difference will be seen because it won't make any difference ?

For this shot I moved the supply unit back, and the circled hex dropped from 50 to 22, visibly.




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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 3:15:04 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

In my example there are no units between the supply unit and the last hex of the arrow. The last hex of the arrow is within the four movement point radius given to the Germans. According to what I've read/been told, that last hex should have supply as though it were four movement points from the railhead. That would be a supply level of 40, just like the hex directly to the southwest of the supply unit on the destroyed rail and that should be displayed on the map. Yet it is displayed as having a level of 34. What am I not understanding?


It would be four MPs closer to the rail head, which, as I see it, would put it equivalent to one MP from the rail head. That's probably a value of 34. For a value of 40, it would have to be on the rail head (or adjusted to equivalent to that by the SU).

In fact, it's obvious that the SU is doing it's job in that shot. Without the SU, no locations except the ones actually on the rail line would be at 40 supply.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/24/2010 3:22:20 AM >

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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 5:41:27 PM   
Panama


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Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing?

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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 6:44:02 PM   
sPzAbt653


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As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?

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RE: high supply - 12/24/2010 7:23:28 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ?


Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form.


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