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IJ AI's Oil - 12/15/2010 12:20:44 AM   
bradk

 

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Based on a recent game against IJ AI to refamiliarize myself with pacwar IJ AI gets LOTS of help with oil, right? Or I, as Allies, did something drastically wrong.
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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 12/15/2010 8:29:38 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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The standard Campaign 41 scenario is skewed to help the Japanese AI, true. But I strongly suspect there is something wrong with the game engine itself. In my last game, the Oil Reserve never went below 12,000 no matter which bases I took. In my current game, the Oil Reserve has not gone below 18,000, in spite of the fact that it's June '42 and the Japanese still have not taken Java.

And the Resource pool is even more ridiculous -- try opening a saved game from the Japanese side, and I think you'll be astonished.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 12/15/2010 10:53:10 PM   
bradk

 

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Well, all the oil gives IJ AI plenty of prep points there's only so many PPs HQs can use. Way over the amount. You're right about resources. I looked after it was over.

In my game IJ oil never dropped below 16,000. IJ had 42,000 Dec 44 when the program called a win for me. And as happened with you, taking the DEI didn't kill the oil supply.

The goal of Allied strategy has been reduced to inflicting greater losses than incurred. The reason for fighting the war is not simulated.

As a test I ran Campaign 41 with both sides set to computer. IJ ran down to about 4000 oil in early 43 while holding the DEI.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 12/27/2010 3:30:39 PM   
bradk

 

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I found a copy of the original game, unfortunately compressed with a program other than WinZip, which I'll have to obtain. I'm gonig to see if the original exe works with the Matrix scenarios.

Matrix was very proud of taking away AI "cheats". Things like the ability to move aircraft and ships around easier than players could, an air combat advantage,, etc. Well, these were things that were subtle and cummulative. The substitution of virtually unlimited oil for these is just blatant in the face.

(in reply to bradk)
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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 1/3/2011 3:46:08 PM   
isshmen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradk

I found a copy of the original game, unfortunately compressed with a program other than WinZip, which I'll have to obtain. I'm gonig to see if the original exe works with the Matrix scenarios.




bradk, can you give me that copy? I need this game.. please.

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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 1/6/2011 3:30:37 PM   
bradk

 

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If you'll PM me your e mail address I'll send it to you. If you'd like it faster, go here.

http://www.myabandonware.com/game/gary-grigsbys-pacific-war-1et#download

Its zipped and inside that is a file compressed with arj. Weird.

Go here

http://www.arjsoftware.com/files.htm

and download unarj.

You have to unzip the download and then uncompress it again with unarj, which is a command line program.

Turns out this is SSI version 1.2, very cool. What I'd really like to get is the exe Gary Grigsby gave away after he left SSI.

I did a quick check by putting the exe in the folder with the Matrix version and it loaded a save file OK. Map colors are funny. Haven't thoroughly checked it but it looks like it will probably run with the Matrix data files.

So, if it works, subtle help for AI with the even setting, and the better Matrix data. I think that's a winner.

(in reply to isshmen)
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RE: IJ AI's Oil - 3/3/2011 1:30:58 AM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

And the Resource pool is even more ridiculous -- try opening a saved game from the Japanese side, and I think you'll be astonished.


Found the answer to this while working on a revised Tora scenario. Its not in the exe. Its in the obc.

In SSI IJ has a chance of running low on resources. Total resources in the game are 330 and IJ has a chance to at some point controll about 50%. In Matrix 3.2, total rsources are 1700 and IJ has a chance to at some point control about 75%.

50% of 330 = 165. 75% of 1700 = 1275. No wonder IJs resrouces run into the millions in Matrix, and there's no chance of a poor player dropping below the penalty threshold.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 7
Resource Cornucopia - 3/3/2011 8:32:17 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

In SSI IJ has a chance of running low on resources. Total resources in the game are 330 and IJ has a chance to at some point controll about 50%. In Matrix 3.2, total rsources are 1700 and IJ has a chance to at some point control about 75%.


That's interesting. Starting with Version 3.0, Matrix rejiggered a number of things, such as aircraft maneuver ratings and commander rankings. I'll have to see if I can find any of the notes explaining why they might have done that.



_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 8
RE: Resource Cornucopia - 3/4/2011 5:52:12 PM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

In SSI IJ has a chance of running low on resources. Total resources in the game are 330 and IJ has a chance to at some point controll about 50%. In Matrix 3.2, total rsources are 1700 and IJ has a chance to at some point control about 75%.


That's interesting. Starting with Version 3.0, Matrix rejiggered a number of things, such as aircraft maneuver ratings and commander rankings. I'll have to see if I can find any of the notes explaining why they might have done that.





I started examining the Tora Tora Tora scenerio because my opponent in an e mail game said he was getting airgroups with aircraft he could not select for production, he had thousands of aircraft that had no use, and he wanted to be able to convert non-US airgroups to use US Army aircraft (available against AI but not in PBEM). WIth just those issues in mind, the whole thing snowballed.

In addition to the resource situation described above, I've found the following changes versus SSI.

First turn IJ production 2% lower, first turn Allied production 36% higher.

First turn IJ shipyard capacity 27% lower, first turn Allied shipyard capacity 28% higher.

In play I've noticed IJ cannot run short on aircraft while it did in SSI. I have not done the analysis of that, but have the analysis of US fighter factories.

However, in SSI, US could occasionally run short of a few types of aircraft which never happens in Matrix. Here's what I've found.

SSI total factories, 50 each. Matrix total factories, 43 IJ, 57 Allies.



US Army fighter factories

Turns 0 - 39, SSI 4, Matrix 2. Gross overproduciton in SSI of P39 and P40 but both were ASAP throwaways in SSI, so no harm done.

Turns 40-79, SSI 4, Matrix 3. Now we have the first real US Army fighter, P38, in both games.

Turns 80 - 90, SSI 4, Matrix 5

Turns 91 - 124 SSI 4, Matrix 6

Turns 125+ SSI 5, Matrix 7

For the three years when the good fighters are built, Matrix has 25% - 50% more US Army fighter factories.



USN/USMC

Turns 0 - 41, SSI 1, Matrix 1
Turns 41 - 67 SSI 1, Matrix 3 F4U in added in Matrix.
Turns 68 - 69 SSI 2, Matrix 3 FM2 added in both
Turns 70 - 74, SSI 3, Matrix 4 F6F added in SSI
Turns 75 - 189, SSI 4, Matrix 4 F6F added in Matrix
Turns 190+, SSI 4, Matrix 5.

For the critical period turns 41 to 74 Matrix has 33% to 200% more factories.

Two more things. In SSI, most airgroups, both IJ and Allies, activated with 4 aircraft. Matrix retained this for IJ, but changed most Allies airgroups activate with a full complement of aircraft. So the production increase for Allies is even greater than the difference indicated from the factory analysis, because putting aircraft into airgroups at the beginning is the same as building them. And there are more Allied airgroups.

Rough estimate is that on turns 41 - 67, USN/USMC get 600 fighters in SSI, 1900 in Matrix. But I never experienced USN/USMC fighter shortages in SSI and a player has to do really stupid things to have a shortage.




What's happened is a large increase in offensive capaiblity of both sides, uch greater for Allies. IJ player concern for resources, and consideration of both players for limiting ship damage and aircraft losses aren't present. I want more in a game than almost unlimited capability to cause explosions.

Those issues out of the way, I want to say I really like the changes in the modeling of ships and aircraft, large Allied ships arriving on shedule rather than the deal with replacement 12 months after sinking, and additional restrictions on Artic combat in Matrix. I really appreciate the work that went into this project and am glad it was done.



< Message edited by bradk -- 3/4/2011 5:54:57 PM >

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 9
RE: Resource Cornucopia - 3/5/2011 12:40:33 AM   
bradk

 

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IJN fighter factory analysis.

Turns 0 - 49, SSI 2, Matrix 3.
Turns 50 - 79, SSI 3, Matrix 4.
Turns 80 - 129, SSI 4, Matrix 5.
Turns 130 - 174, SSI 4, Matrix 6
Turns 175 - 191 SSI 5, Matrix 6
Turns 192+, SSI 5, Matrix 7

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 10
RE: Resource Cornucopia - 3/6/2011 12:03:53 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

I'll have to see if I can find any of the notes explaining why they might have done that.


Okay, found some notes:

Version 3.2 Changes

1. Modified aircraft cost and factory numbers to better represent
actual production as well as actual cost of aircraft.

**This is the only way we can represent increasing production over time, as later aircraft are actually cheaper then eariler aircraft, to represent expansion of factories.

[...]

4. Changed training system for Carrier Based air groups from:

Air group gets +1 Experience per turn if Experience is less than
65 + Random (10).


The new system is as follows:

Air group gets +1 Experience per turn if Experience is less than
70 + Random (5).


**Land Based Air Groups still use the 3.1 method of Training. They both have the same maximum Experience level, however, Carrier Groups have an easier time at getting higher experience.

[...]

6. Some IJAAF air groups start at full complements of aircraft when
appearing as a new group.

**These IJAAF air groups were veteran groups transferred in from China or Manchuria

7. The industrial capacity and production for both the US and Japan
have been drastically modified.

a) US Industry is now located predominantly at Eastern U.S.,
and the new Central U.S.

b) Japanese industry is now concentrated primarily at Tokyo,
Nagoya, Osaka and Nagasaki. Japanese industry was very
centralized, and now is easier to attack, and possibly
easier to defend.

c) US Shipyards (now 320+ points) and Heavy Industry (now 230+
points) are now drastically increased, while Japanese
Shipyards (now 100+ points) and Heavy Industry (now 60+
points) are now slightly decreased.

8. Many small changes to scenarios to further help the AI as well as
to increase historical accuracy. These scenarios should be
tougher easily win (it is recommened to also give max help for
the AI)

a) For the OBC41, Japanese AI scenario, the following changes:
i) Many IJA LCU's are located at bases years before they
were formed and deployed. (done because the AI leaves
these bases undefended).
ii) Starting Preparation points are increased.
iii) IJN Tankers all have a capacity of 250.
iv) IJN DE's and PF's durability increased by +1 point.
v) Wake Island is assaulted on the historic first turn.
vi) Many US Army Divisions now appear at their historic
time of release from garrison duties on the West Coast
instead of their arrival in the theatre of war.

**Option VI was done because not many players worry about defending the West Coast, and would drain it of almost every LCU and send them off for forward defensive duties. Delaying their arrival will stem their unrealistic use in other theatres, such as the East Indies, when you have full knowledge that the AI will not attack the West Coast.

b) For the OBC_B, Allied AI scenario, the following changes:
i) Australian Militia is deployed as it was in 1943, and
units are attached to SW Pacific so they will defend
better.
ii) 40mm Flak values are increased by +1 point.
iii) US Asiatic fleet is now located in Java.
iv) Starting Preparation points are increased.
v) US East Coast troops are now attached to SW Pacific
so they will fight better.
vi) UK/IND units are deployed in large number on Ceylon.
v) USAFFE troop preparation is increased, as well as
greater supplies accumulated.
vi) USMC Marine Defense battalions are deployed to
forward bases and have increased TOE.

9. Aircraft experienced many changes in regards to Dogfight, Range,
and Durability.

a) Aircraft Dogfight takes into account the following.
i) Speed.
ii) Manoeverability.
iii) Climb and dive abilities.

b) Aircraft range takes into account the following.
i) Higher Bomb capacity will lower an aircraft range.
ii) If an aircraft does not have a bomb capacity, they
may have increased range due to drop tanks.

c) Aircraft durability takes into account the following.
i) Even poorly protected bombers are tougher then
equivalent fighters.
ii) Fighters previously had very high durability when
compared to many bombers.

**A lot of planes were very unrepresented in their actual flying combat ability, notably the P-39, Hawk 75A/P-36, and the Ki-45. Many aircraft were over-represented, like the Ki-84, N1K, F4F, and most of the Jets.

**Aircraft range has been corrected, a lot of earlier planes have increased range due to their lower or lack of bomb load.

**Aircraft durability is more represented by historic stats and results. Aircraft like the P-51 were very close in durability to the super durable planes such as the P-47, while the P-51 was noted for its vulnerability. IJAAF bombers have increased durability as they were not quite as poorly armoured as IJNAF bombers.

10. USN Escort carrier groups are now divided between those with
aircraft (Casablanca Class, Icon with CVE with planes on deck)
with those who are ferry ships (Casablanca and Bogue Class, Icon
with CVE without planes on deck).

11. Changed around how resources are deployed throughout the Pacific.
Instead of having resources spread out to individual bases, they
are now located at the major regional ports which contain
resources in a given sphere of influence.
These resource ports are...

a) Port Arthur (represents Manchurian Resources)
b) Manila (represents resources found on Luzon)
c) Singapore (represents resources found on Malaya)
d) Rangoon (represents resrouces found in Burma)
e) Seoul (represents resources found in Korea)
f) Saigon (represents resources found in Southern Indo-China)
g) Bangkok (represents resources found in Siam)
h) Sorebaya (represents resources found in Java)
i) Palembang (represents resources found in Southern Sumatra)
j) Sydney (represents resoures found in Eastern Australia)


I can't say I agree with everything above. (For one thing, the notes say the P-51 was durable, and then say it was vulnerable.) It also seems to me that resources should be modeled as closely as possible to where they actually were. What's the advantage of concentration?

< Message edited by Capt. Harlock -- 3/6/2011 12:04:44 AM >


_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 11
RE: Resource Cornucopia - 3/6/2011 4:44:36 AM   
bradk

 

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quote:

I can't say I agree with everything above. (For one thing, the notes say the P-51 was durable, and then say it was vulnerable.) It also seems to me that resources should be modeled as closely as possible to where they actually were. What's the advantage of concentration?


Thank you for finding a posting this.

The one that gets me is to play against AI with AI set to max help. OK, but the built in help in SSI was called "cheats" and taken out!

I don't buy the lower cost on newer aircraft to simulate factory expansion. The factories themselves expand over time.

My current game, Aug 43, my opponent (allies) says he has 23,000 pool aricraft and annualized production of 30,000. Same game, I have about 10,400 pool aircraft and annualized production of about 3000.

IJ's aircraft production is functionally infinity. Allies is functionally 2x infininty. <G>

I don't know the point of concentrating resources. But the vast increase means resources have been taken out of the game as a strategic consideration.

< Message edited by bradk -- 3/6/2011 4:50:22 AM >

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 12
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