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simple map question - 11/29/2010 4:16:47 PM   
Huib


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Currently mapping a portion of Holland.

What is represented by "Broken"?

What is represented by "Polder"? I assume the Dutch fields separated by ditches and not necessarily land that was won from water. However looking at the movement tables is could make more sense if "Broken" represented those fields separated by ditches (and are thus unsuited for any vehicle movement).

Huib
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RE: simple map question - 11/30/2010 12:26:14 AM   
Arjuna


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Broken is rough ground - ie where the ground surface is disected with irregular ditches, bolders etc Polder is a type of terrain found in Holland where low lying land has been reclaiimed by building bunds and ditches. The bunds are raised ground, typically about two to four feet, often with vegetation like shrubs and trees on them.

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RE: simple map question - 11/30/2010 10:08:59 AM   
Huib


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Perhaps because I live there it is hard to visualize the difference. I still can't figure when to use which type of terrain. Also I have never seen land with irregular ditches to be honest. They are all regular. In Holland generally "rough" land is uncultivated would mostly appear as "heide" (which is in the editor) or as "marsh"(also present in the editor).

A polder in my perception is a piece of land claimed from the sea or lake by putting a dyke around it and pumping out the water. Afterwards a pumping station and a drainage system of ditches is needed to keep it dry, The ditches usually also serve as field separators for farmers. In general this land prohibits most vehicular movement as it is soft ground and the ditches turn it into a labyrinth.

Would I be correct to use Polder when there is a real polder ie claimed land, and use Broken for any other type of farm land where the fields might be separated either by ditches, fence or hedges? Depending on the local surface off road vehicle movement on the latter would be easier (less soft), which is not the case when looking at the movement table. However this could be corrected by leaving some parts "clear" where you know the ground was harder (and there are other field separators than ditches).


Huib

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RE: simple map question - 11/30/2010 1:16:51 PM   
simovitch


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Huib,
For the MG scenarios, it seems that what you are referring to as broken and polder was lumped together into one terrain type, polder. According to the map legend this represents fences, ditches and even hedgerows. I suggest keeping the values that you use somewhat consistent with the HTTR Holland mapping.

For example his is the area west of Nijmegen, represented in the game by polder and orchard.




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RE: simple map question - 11/30/2010 6:07:02 PM   
Huib


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Thanks. That makes it clear.

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RE: simple map question - 11/30/2010 11:01:16 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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That is a fantastic quality map. Can you post a screenshot of the technical legend, showing who made it and from what?

like my screenshot here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/32312/CA400BF366244B1E9966A4B3A3C95CE5.jpg

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RE: simple map question - 12/1/2010 1:24:33 AM   
simovitch


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Sure:




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< Message edited by simovitch -- 12/1/2010 1:26:19 AM >


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RE: simple map question - 12/1/2010 2:12:02 AM   
simovitch


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You can download these and other maps here. You have to convert them from jpeg2000 to something else if you can't view that type. Free converters are available online.

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RE: simple map question - 12/1/2010 11:40:59 AM   
Huib


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Excellent link, but what graphics program did you use to view them? I have paintshop pro XI but it says these jpg2000 files contain unsupported elements, whatever that may be. Then I tried AVS image converter and my PC crashed :(

edit: never mind, got it working with Irfan View

< Message edited by Huib -- 12/1/2010 11:52:42 AM >

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RE: simple map question - 5/19/2011 9:37:07 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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Had trouble getting several programs to open this but IrfanView worked after downloading the plugin(s) from this page:

http://www.software.com/irfanview-plugins-9374-1

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RE: simple map question - 5/19/2011 11:49:43 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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Seeing "Polder" on these period maps has confused me too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

For example his is the area west of Nijmegen, represented in the game by polder and orchard.



You can see the Emmahoeve farm from your map on Google Street View, if you head SW from Weurt about 1.5km until you get to the "Now Leaving Weurt" sign, level with the "De Sluis" label. On the North side of the road there is what looks like a pumping station, an irrigation ditch and some orchard!

I'm making a ridiculously small 6*3 Holland map with what the map has labelled "Polder" in certain areas, so thats what i've drawn in, with an irregular edge to suggest field bondaries and to make it look prettier... i know, silly detail to include.

"Touring" the area on street view you can also see some wet ditches with vehicular access points but i wouldn't like to try take a short cut through the field for fear of having to drive all the way round (with people shooting at me) to realise that that was the only vehicular access point!




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RE: simple map question - 5/20/2011 12:03:59 AM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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There's also some Heide, what exactly is this? It brings up hardly anything relevant when googled, but sounds to be something like Heath or Moorland.

In Holland, at this time, is/was it just uncultivated ground? If so, why isn't it drained, surely there was demand? Is it some kind of village "common" ground or doesn't/didn't that exist in Holland?

Only page that looked promising from a quick search: http://www.pension-hof-sauer.de/eng/heathland.htm






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RE: simple map question - 5/20/2011 1:10:25 AM   
Arjuna


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A word of warning about adding too many tracks. Remember that the map deals in 100m terrain grids and a track will in effect make the cells it passes through 100m wide open areas. If you have two tracks 200m apart effectively you will have a football field. Now anyone whose been to Holland will know that there will be a pile of vegetation between those parallel tracks but alas the limitations of our engine mean that these will be ignored and you will instead get a huge open area.

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RE: simple map question - 5/22/2011 10:25:18 PM   
springel

 

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'Heide' is heathland.

In the Netherlands most heathland was formed as a culture landscape in the Middle Ages by grazing sheep on sand ground or the borders of moors. The farmers collected sods with sheep manure to put on their fields. This left the heathland itself very poor.

Heathland was usually part of the common grounds of a village, while the fields that were fertilized with the pods were privately owned.

It required a major effort to develop these lands for agriculture, and large scale development only became feasible after the invention of synthetic fertilizer.

During WWII there were still many large pieces of heathland undeveloped, but during the 1950's they were converted, until one realised that they were valuable pieces nature, so here and there is still a bit of 'heide' today.


< Message edited by springel -- 5/22/2011 10:34:04 PM >

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RE: simple map question - 5/22/2011 11:06:55 PM   
Chief Rudiger

 

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Thanks, take me back to studying environmental history at Uni!


More questions:

Do you know what the significance of the large "blank" area to the North of Drunen - is this also common grazing land or intensively farmed market garden/vegetable plots? What would've been grown in the big long fields? What about in the big "empty" fields between the canal and the Drunesche Dyke - pasture?

Why are there so many labels over reletively featuresless farmland, such as Voorste Venne, Achterste Venne, Hulten & Brake Naulande - are these the names of the big land owners/farms?

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RE: simple map question - 5/23/2011 6:13:50 PM   
springel

 

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I am from the North (Groningen), and this is the South, but I think I can read this landscape, because it is a lot like situations in my neighbourhood.

The whole area must have been sand ground, covered with moor, from 1000 BC until Mediaeval Times (and much later), except the highest parts of the low sand hills, that would emerge from the moor. Even a few metres height would make all the difference.

Drunen looks like such a sand hill, that formed the basis for the settlement, probably from the Iron Age. The sand hill would form the old fields of the village, and they would be above the water level, so they wouldn't need all those gullies.

When the population increased, the started to colonise the moors, by digging water gullies. Each farmer digging from his piece of field, into the moor. That created those areas with very long narrow fields. It was kind of a race, because when one used the peat land for agriculture, the peat would oxidise and the ground would sink, getting wet, and then they moved onwards.

In the end the land would sink below the water level, and they would need to put a dike around the land to prevent water from the surrounding moors to flow into the lands, that could now only be used as pastures.

'Voorste Vennen' means 'front moors' and 'Achterste Vennen' means 'back moors', seen from the village of course.

They are just local geographic names that are put on the map because those names would be used locally.

Another possibility for the location of Drunen would be land reclamation from another place, in the characteristic way of narrow parallel fields separated by water gullies, when, during the sinking of the land they would discover a sand ridge that would stop the sinking locally and that would become the location of the settlement. But looking at the local pattern of the gullies, Drunen seems to be the origin of the reclamation, but the village of Elshout for example seems to have landed on an invisible small sand ridge.

So, to conclude: the 'empty' land North of Drunen is formed by high and dry fields that don't need gullies, the other parts are wet reclaimed moor.

The high fields would probably still be used for rye or wheat one year, potatoes or barley in another year, and no harvest the third year in a field rotation system during WWII. Today it will probably mostly be maize.

< Message edited by springel -- 5/23/2011 6:27:11 PM >

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