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RE: St. Lo

 
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RE: St. Lo - 11/24/2010 11:44:50 PM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
Status: offline 		I used to have the hardcopy as well (lost during a move to Alaska) and must admit I assumed the on-line version was the same. Glad the original is more useful!

Cheers & happy Thanksgiving to all us Yanks!



quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

Akclimber, I got the hard copy version of the link you suggested at the library. It is much more complete and I actually do have some info about battalion locations of Panzer Lehr and 3d parachute division defending the German line. a lot of comments in the book about strength, fatigue and morale will also help further refine the historical accuracy. So Good call!

I've got a pretty good basic force compiled and I'm beginning play testing. I'm also waiting for one more reference to arrive in the mail.
For now, heading out for the thanksgiving holiday. Will be back on the weekend!



(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 31
RE: St. Lo - 11/28/2010 4:31:20 AM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Returned from holiday festivities and back at the Battle of the Hedgerows!

This scenario features on the German side:
east of the Vire River - 3d fallschrimjager division of the 2d parachute corps, a crack unit tasked with defending the Hill overlooking St. Lo from the east.
west of the Vire River: the Panzer Lehr division, assigned to annihilate Allied forces that had established a bridgehead south of the Vire-Taute Canal.

Panzer Lehr was one of Germany's premiere armored divisions, touted by its commanding general Fritz Bayerlein as the "best panzer divions the Germans ever had." Indeed, it had just been newly activated in early 1944 and provided all new equipment, including the latest Panzer Mark V (Panther) models.
However, by July 10, 1944 (the start date of this scenario), it had already been through a month of bitter fighting, resulting in about a one-third casualty rate. Moreover, at the time when they were hastily pressed into action in this St. Lo sector, one-fourth of its active strength were situated at Till-sure-Seulles and unavailable.

Attached is an image of two disabled Panthers of 1st company, 130th Panzer Regiment, Panzer Lehr during the counter attack of July 11, 1944. Notice the difficult-to-navigate terrain on either side of the road.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to AKCLIMBER)
Post #: 32
RE: St. Lo - 11/28/2010 11:15:13 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Pictured here are US troops from the 115th infantry regiment, 29th Div escorting a sherman battalion into the city of St. Lo. Notice the intact "Cafe Restaurant" just behind the tank.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 33
RE: St. Lo - 11/28/2010 11:18:21 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Now compare to this picture, clearly taken afterwards, as evidenced by the new holes in the wall of Cafe Restaurant next to the American tank destroyer.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 34
RE: St. Lo - 11/29/2010 6:34:33 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Here is a representation of US intelligence of German forces around le Carillon (a few km northeast of St. Lo)

I think my adaptation of Dan (Rooster) Lamb's hedgerow graphic does it fair justice!




Attachment (1)

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 35
RE: St. Lo - 11/30/2010 3:35:00 AM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Order of Battle is coming along. Still working on putting in commanders, all regimental ones included, down to the battalion level in some cases.

Notice Panzer Lehr supporting Battlegroup Heintz against 30th US Inf Div "Old Hickory" with elements of 3rd Armored Div (CCB) west of the Vire River and 342nd Inf Division defending north of St. Lo against 29th "Blue and Gray" and 35th "Santa Fe" US Inf Div. Further East 3rd parachute division holds of 2nd US Inf Div "Indian Head"




Attachment (1)

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 36
RE: St. Lo - 11/30/2010 8:12:46 AM   
ulisin

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OlegHasky

But the comunity here is dead.. walking zombies Noones playing online..

Poeple are locked in limited AI scheme. Where the best expierience is reached trough HVH..




I'm interested in HVH. I've fixed my connection problems, and in Italy we're starting to play on line. Soon we'll need new scenarios!!


By the way, dear Crushingleek,
your work looks fantastic, go for it!




(in reply to OlegHasky)
Post #: 37
RE: St. Lo - 11/30/2010 5:08:15 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Each US infantry division had artillery support from three 105mm battalions, and one 155mm battalion, and in this sector, they rained hell in the form of shells on the Germans.

Records indicate that in the St. Lo sector, in mid-July, the Americans showered the German 2nd prcht corps and LXXXIV corps with 20 thousand rounds per day.
In addition to this, American air superiority allowed frequent close air support against German armor, weather permitting.

Both superior artillery firepower and close air support (when visibility allowed) are represented in this scenario on the US side.


(in reply to ulisin)
Post #: 38
RE: St. Lo - 12/4/2010 7:39:39 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		The battle of St. Lo, for you to command.

I've attached it as a zip file to this post.

Extract to your base command ops BFTB folder. First back up your original Graphics/Map/Default/Normal folder.

Enjoy!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 39
RE: St. Lo - 12/4/2010 11:16:46 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

Posts: 541
Joined: 6/23/2007
From: The House of the Mouse
Status: offline 		Thanks! I hope to play it soon, once I get caught up at work. Stupid job gets in the way of my recreation.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 40
RE: St. Lo - 12/5/2010 2:52:19 AM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

Thanks! I hope to play it soon, once I get caught up at work. Stupid job gets in the way of my recreation.


Sure thing, I'd love to know how everybody's battle turns out, so don't be shy with the feedback.

(in reply to Franklin Nimitz)
Post #: 41
RE: St. Lo - 12/5/2010 5:50:27 PM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
Status: offline 		Thanks! Looking forward to giving it a try.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 42
RE: St. Lo - 12/5/2010 9:31:00 PM   
ulisin

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 1/27/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks! I hope to play it soon!

(in reply to AKCLIMBER)
Post #: 43
RE: St. Lo - 12/5/2010 10:48:19 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2449
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

Sure thing, I'd love to know how everybody's battle turns out, so don't be shy with the feedback.


Wow, this is really great. It's terrific to have folks interested in building maps/oob/scenarios for the game. The CotA modder's forum could be a pretty lonely place, so I really appreciate your participation and hard work.

A suggestion regarding file management...

When you use custom graphics, like that for your bocage terrain, you may want to give it a name other than DEFAULT. For example, BOCAGE or HEDGEROW would do nicely. Then, designate the correct graphics set in the MM utility. That will allow players to play your scenario without fiddling with the graphics for BftB. In effect, users can have as many sets of scenario-discreet graphics files as they like, and have them associate automatically rather than through renaming/substitution of the DEFAULT graphics folder.


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 44
RE: St. Lo - 12/6/2010 12:05:19 AM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		Great suggestion Prince. I made a Graphics/Map/Bocage folder. (Previously it was Graphics/Map/Default, and I left it up to you to backup the original default folder.) I've now linked the map to the new bocage folder, so for those who haven't downloaded and want to, or want to preserve your default folder without any manipulation, simply extract this zip file into your parent command ops BFTB directory and it should be ready to play.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 45
RE: St. Lo - 1/4/2011 10:20:20 PM   
AKCLIMBER

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/22/2010
From: Juneau, Alaska
Status: offline 		Thanks for this scenario! I've just started day 9 as the exhausted Americans and I'm finding it quite a challenge. At this point, unless the Germans unexpectedly crumble under the weight of my arty and air strikes, I'll be happy to end up with a marginal victory (and enough of a toe hold in St. Lo to deny the Germans undisputed control of the objective point). Terrific map that really gives an idea of the difficulties of fighting thru hedgerows against a determined opponent (and it looks great too!).

Cheers!

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 46
RE: St. Lo - 1/9/2011 12:17:33 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AKCLIMBER

Thanks for this scenario! I've just started day 9 as the exhausted Americans and I'm finding it quite a challenge. At this point, unless the Germans unexpectedly crumble under the weight of my arty and air strikes, I'll be happy to end up with a marginal victory (and enough of a toe hold in St. Lo to deny the Germans undisputed control of the objective point). Terrific map that really gives an idea of the difficulties of fighting thru hedgerows against a determined opponent (and it looks great too!).

Cheers!


Thanks for the praise AKCLIMBER. Glad you are enjoying it. It was a lot of fun researching and putting it together. Like you mention, it gives some idea of how overwhelming American firepower met with stubborn crack troop resistance and hastily put-together albeit quality German armor

(in reply to AKCLIMBER)
Post #: 47
RE: St. Lo - 4/8/2011 9:46:57 PM   
chamberlain

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Crushingleek,
Again, thanks for making the St. Lo mod for BFTB. (I'm Chamberlain here, but Broadsword on the Battlefront forums)
I'm only just starting Day 1 and making my initial plans, so I don't have much to report on my experience with it, yet except:
*Love the bocage patterned terrain.
*What a challenge this looks like for the US player.
My plan:
At first, I was attracted by the idea of trying to break through the German line W of Hill 192 somewhere between La Luzerne and St. Andre-de-l'Epine, using the full weight of the 29th and 35th divisions, with 3rd Armored as a reserve/exploitation force. But then I realized, as I considered moving 3rd Armored to that central sector, that the Vire River prevents this and its bridge at Pont Hebert is an even more important immediate objective. Once I have a secure river crossing, I'll have better E-W linkups between my divisions, my forces will be able to mututally support each other much better, and the Germans will have a tougher time if they lose the E-W highway.
So, Phase 1 will be a Day 2 dawn attack on Pont Hebert by 119th Infantry Regt + Co. E CCB/3rd AD + 105th Engineer Co/30th Div., preceded by a hellacious 15 min. artillery barrage. To divert attention from that, 137th Intantry regt/35th Div will make an aggressive probe south along the E bank of the Vire into St. Giles. I'll also put a lot of artillery and (if available) air support on the highway E. of Pont Hebert to block/harass any German effort to reinforce Pont Hebert from the east. The rest of the army will make weak probes all along the front, just to get intel and keep Adolf guessing.
Hopefully, the commotion around Pont Hebert will distract the Germans' attention to the west, maybe even leading them to weaken the center. That's when it's time to unleash Phase 2 (the 3 division attack and breakthrough W of Hill 192). Cutting off and enveloping Hill 192 this way seems preferable to attacking it frontally and uphill. I could try enveloping it from the East, but I don't like that option for 2 reasons: I have fewer forces on the far east end of the map, and it would give the Germans the opportunity to wage their defense from the coveted "central position."
The only thing that worries me a bit is that heavy German armor on the far west end of their line. I'm going to have to keep at least some of 3rd Armored Div in that sector to protect the 30th Infantry Div.
What do you think? Stay tuned to see how it played out...

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 48
RE: St. Lo - 4/9/2011 5:08:25 PM   
crushingleeek

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline

Thanks for the praise!


quote:


At first, I was attracted by the idea of trying to break through the German line W of Hill 192 somewhere between La Luzerne and St. Andre-de-l'Epine, using the full weight of the 29th and 35th divisions, with 3rd Armored as a reserve/exploitation force. But then I realized, as I considered moving 3rd Armored to that central sector, that the Vire River prevents this and its bridge at Pont Hebert is an even more important immediate objective. Once I have a secure river crossing, I'll have better E-W linkups between my divisions, my forces will be able to mututally support each other much better, and the Germans will have a tougher time if they lose the E-W highway.

Your considerations are very similar to what the 1st Army high command was thinking in early July.

quote:

So, Phase 1 will be a Day 2 dawn attack on Pont Hebert by 119th Infantry Regt + Co. E CCB/3rd AD + 105th Engineer Co/30th Div., preceded by a hellacious 15 min.

spoken like a true yank! pound the area to a pulp!

quote:

To divert attention from that, 137th Intantry regt/35th Div will make an aggressive probe south along the E bank of the Vire into St. Giles. I'll also put a lot of artillery and (if available) air support on the highway E. of Pont Hebert to block/harass any German effort to reinforce Pont Hebert from the east. The rest of the army will make weak probes all along the front, just to get intel and keep Adolf guessing.

good plan, but don't expect the krauts to stay stagnant, be prepared for some probes of their own (i think)

quote:

Hopefully, the commotion around Pont Hebert will distract the Germans' attention to the west, maybe even leading them to weaken the center. That's when it's time to unleash Phase 2 (the 3 division attack and breakthrough W of Hill 192). Cutting off and enveloping Hill 192 this way seems preferable to attacking it frontally and uphill. I could try enveloping it from the East, but I don't like that option for 2 reasons: I have fewer forces on the far east end of the map, and it would give the Germans the opportunity to wage their defense from the coveted "central position."

American intel at this point already knew of the fallschrimjager division in defense of hill 192. Both sides understand the importance of this hill for the main St. Lo objective! be prepared for stiff resistance especially here (says your intel officer)

quote:

The only thing that worries me a bit is that heavy German armor on the far west end of their line. I'm going to have to keep at least some of 3rd Armored Div in that sector to protect the 30th Infantry Div.




(in reply to chamberlain)
Post #: 49
RE: St. Lo - 4/9/2011 10:59:30 PM   
patchogue


Posts: 133
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline 		Remember to thank Monty for distracting the bulk of the German armour...mostly by bouncing Shermans off it!

_____________________________

"It takes three years to build a ship, it takes three centuries to build a tradition"
Admiral Andrew Cunningham
1941

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 50
RE: St. Lo - 4/25/2011 9:18:26 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1088
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Hamilton Area, Canada
Status: offline 		Hi Guys!
This looks amazing. What do I need beside the base game to get started with MODs such as St.Lo.

Thanks!

_____________________________

My Top 3 of Matrix 1) War In the East/PacificAE 2) Ageod's ACW 3) Conquest of the Aegean

Worst 3 - 1) PC Hornet Leader 2) Carriers @ War 3) Crown of Glory

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(in reply to patchogue)
Post #: 51
RE: St. Lo - 4/25/2011 9:33:44 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Nothing - to play you just need to place the files into the correct folders*. You need no special software to modify or create things either, but a spreadsheet or DB to organise stuff is useful.

*Some authors will require manually moving the files to their correct locations, others will have packaged the files to allow simply unzipping into the BFTB folder.

(in reply to ETF)
Post #: 52
RE: St. Lo - 4/27/2011 1:09:43 AM   
ETF


Posts: 1088
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Hamilton Area, Canada
Status: offline 		Ok thank you. I guess I will D/L the St. Lo and take a look at the instructions. Assuming there are any :)

_____________________________

My Top 3 of Matrix 1) War In the East/PacificAE 2) Ageod's ACW 3) Conquest of the Aegean

Worst 3 - 1) PC Hornet Leader 2) Carriers @ War 3) Crown of Glory

www.facebook.com/wargamesimulations

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 53
RE: St. Lo - 4/27/2011 3:05:29 AM   
Agent S


Posts: 1208
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		@ETF, time to move BftB into your top 5 sig? + Is your #2 that good? (worth a purchase?)
@crushingleeek, Excellent St. Lo. Scenario, are you working on others?

(in reply to ETF)
Post #: 54
RE: St. Lo - 5/10/2011 11:59:31 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 8403
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		wow,
20000 rounds a DAY
???
I know that was over an area... how large was the area refered to the Gerry Korps held during this pounding

(in reply to Agent S)
Post #: 55
RE: St. Lo - 5/11/2011 12:21:50 AM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Two Korps.

20,000 rounds is about 10 batteries expending a single unit of fire - not much above what we commonly use in scenarios of this size.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 56
RE: St. Lo - 5/11/2011 5:59:44 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 8403
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		its probably me thinking 20k bombs... I have been running some air campeigns in wite and witpae and probably struck me as terrifically high,, my misconception. I can see how that would be a reasonable, high but reasonable figure for an multidivisional assualt...
thanks for the response
another ?
is there a scenario center for these mods, There was one years ago that covered multiple games but it is loing since abandoned? thanks again

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 57
RE: St. Lo - 5/13/2011 12:26:53 AM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Actually, I think I'm one level of support 'out'... it would be 10+ Bn/Rgt of artillery, each firing one unit of fire, or roughly 1 unit of fire from 30 bty.
A fairly high concentration of fire, but not out-of-the world, and nothing compared to WW1 artillery expenditures.

Although a bit later, the break-out phase had 1000 guns available to the US forces under Collins - so a 20,000 round per day expenditure would average less than 1/4 of a standard load, but fired from more guns...
Now That is a lot of guns.... though I'm not sure how many of those could range into the Cobra sector. Ammunition was noted as being in short supply though - which may not be surprising when you have that many tubes to feed.


< Message edited by Lieste -- 5/13/2011 12:27:34 AM >

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 58
RE: St. Lo - 5/19/2011 5:07:26 PM   
Joubarbe

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		You should put your main link (without the DEFAULT issue) into your first post.
Thanks for this scenario.

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 59
RE: St. Lo - 10/2/2011 4:18:00 AM   
wodin


Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

Welcome to hedgerow hell!





My hedges aren't green but black with what looks like small graphical errors in the shape of coloured pixels.

Anyone help? I did install the bocage map folder.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 60
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