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Cohesion - 11/8/2010 10:48:24 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: gibsons b.c. canada
Status: offline 		how long does it take a BG to re gain cohesion? i had the 107 PZ brig resting for 3 moves and it doesnt appear to have gained any cohesion? the BG's fatigue re gained but no cohesion. i thought that both fatigue AND cohesion was re gained when rested.
whats the deal?
Post #: 1
RE: Cohesion - 11/10/2010 8:23:05 PM   
topper6

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 1/21/2009
Status: offline 		Steiner, if i have understood this correctly, cohesion reflects more or less how many of the troops are left of the BG from it's initial setup.

This way you can never re-gain cohesion, even with reinforcements being given to the BG since, if I get it right, it always compares cohesion with the troops left in the BG with the one who where there to start with.

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 2
RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 2:19:57 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		From a WaR thread but should still be valid


Cohesion and fatigue use an internal system in the game engine called a 'trait'.   When you adjust a 'trait' value the amount of increase / decrease is scaled based on the magnitude of the current value and the magnitude of the change.  The closer to the maximum the current value is, the less of any increase is applied, and vice-versa.

As an example, if you rest a BG overnight it should recover about 1/3 the amount of cohesion it is down from the maximum.  If your BG is at 50% cohesion and your rest overnight it will be at about 66%.  If it rests overnight again it will be at about 77%.  Resting a 1% cohesion BG over night should take it to ~33%.

tLD example: Resting for one day turn in TLD (with 4 turns per day) will only get you back ~4% cohesion if you're at 50%.

Note: There are only 10 graphical states in tLD/WaR so a 4% increase may not register graphically


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RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 8:28:12 AM   
topper6

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 1/21/2009
Status: offline 		Gosh, guess i have no clue what cohesion is, or how it affects the gameplay.

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Post #: 4
RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 9:17:22 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Low cohesion adversely effects your BG, try to avoid low cohesion

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RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 9:55:20 AM   
topper6

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 1/21/2009
Status: offline 		I've tried to get an understanding of the meaning of the word cohesion, please explain what it is then Andrew, and how to avoid low cohesion.

Ty, Henrik.

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Post #: 6
RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 12:57:34 PM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 854
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		Didnt you also tell me that you Have to use the check box option of Rest BG in order for the resting to happen?
otherwise you said they were considered to still be on alert?

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Post #: 7
RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 6:57:33 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Didnt you also tell me that you Have to use the check box option of Rest BG in order for the resting to happen?
otherwise you said they were considered to still be on alert?


Correct, that is what the Rest check box is for - Resting


< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 11/11/2010 6:59:00 PM >

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RE: Cohesion - 11/11/2010 6:58:13 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

I've tried to get an understanding of the meaning of the word cohesion, please explain what it is then Andrew, and how to avoid low cohesion.


Avoid battle and movement


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Post #: 9
RE: Cohesion - 11/12/2010 3:39:46 PM   
topper6

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 1/21/2009
Status: offline 		But, what IS cohesion, is it like morale or what?

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Post #: 10
RE: Cohesion - 11/12/2010 4:55:22 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 2677
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: online 		It is how organized your forces are...

A BG with less Cohesion will leave units with missing men and or not allow you to change a unit in/out of the active force.

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Post #: 11
RE: Cohesion - 11/12/2010 6:10:38 PM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 854
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		Personally I'm not a fan of this option.
When my BG's are moving forward to fight they are then Fatigued and loose Cohesion,despite the fact they haven't even fought yet.



The Campaign text for WAR says.......
# Base cohesion cost for movement (0-512)
16
# Base cohesion cost for combat (0-512)
64
# Base fatigue cost for movement (0-512)
32
# Base fatigue cost for combat (0-512)
64

Is that from the "Chance512" Table in the workbook?
So a setting of 16 for movement cost you about 20% of Cohesion and whooping 40% Fatigue?
Your kidding me right?
40% Fatigued just for movement?

And seems to me that team doesn't get back that Fatigue or Cohesion after they move when there is no Battle.
they just keep going down,down,down,down When all your doing is bringing your BG up through the strategic map so they can fight.Only to find they are too tired and too stupid to fight.


And I don't know about you guys but I'm having a hard time accepting my Tank Crews being Fatigued.
In WAR I've seen if I put them on ambush for awhile they go back to the green saying healthy so whats the point here?


< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 11/12/2010 6:14:53 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Cohesion - 11/12/2010 6:40:17 PM   
xe5

 

Posts: 781
Joined: 5/3/2009
Status: offline 		Screenshot shows cohesion/fatigue cost to the Irish Gds BG after moving 58 turns in a row. Not too shabby considering I once participated in a night training maneuver that resulted in our battery being haphazardly scattered across 3 map sheets.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13
RE: Cohesion - 11/12/2010 7:19:34 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		how does 16/512 = 20%  ?

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Post #: 14
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 5:33:18 AM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 854
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		Well that's what i"m asking.

Again the Campaign.txt says.......
Base cohesion cost for movement (0-512)

Is the (0-512) from the Reference Tables of the workbook?

Looks like I was viewing the chance 128 table and not the chance 512 table in my earlier post (sorry)


My posts are for WAR,nobody else seems to be playing/posting in the WAR forums so i'm just trying to get an understanding as I'm assuming it's the same for both games.

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 11/13/2010 5:46:19 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 5:37:45 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: gibsons b.c. canada
Status: offline 		so when you say you have to CHECK the Rest BOX, your talking about in the strat move, on the drop down order menu? i did REST my unit, for 3 turns...almost a full day, give or take and i didnt see my Cohesion get any better.
my BG had been kicked off a map and it got nailed bad with Cohesion loss. so your saying cohesion is real slow to come cack then. slower than fatique?
id say that just moving doesnt cause a BG so much cohesion loss... its battle and morale loss, but it seems to take TOO long to come back........

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Post #: 16
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 6:50:56 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

so when you say you have to CHECK the Rest BOX, your talking about in the strat move, on the drop down order menu?


yes, if the feature is working.


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Post #: 17
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 7:38:26 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: gibsons b.c. canada
Status: offline 		thats a problem....... id have to say the rest orser doesnt appear to be working but fatique goes away when you REST. my fatique got less but i didnt see my cohesion get better.
what would be realy cool is if Oddball or Steve dropped in here to shed some light on things

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Post #: 18
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 7:57:34 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Let's hope Steve turns up.


:)


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Post #: 19
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 8:01:28 PM   
xe5

 

Posts: 781
Joined: 5/3/2009
Status: offline 		3 turns is half a day. The key phrase "rest a BG overnight" seems to have been ignored. The 'rest' function does work to recover both fatigue and cohesion.

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Post #: 20
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 10:04:23 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The key phrase "rest a BG overnight"


Corrrect.. they also are supposed to recover to a lesser extent during daylight.. don't have figures on that though as they have never been made available.... really a bit like pulling teeth.


:)


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Post #: 21
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 10:15:33 PM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: gibsons b.c. canada
Status: offline 		where are you guys getting your info from? in the game manual? what page? i cant find a whole lot in the manual about recouvering from cohesion.
its gonna be a tough haul for a couple of key german BG's to REST over nite.....up to 7 turns???

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Post #: 22
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 11:10:17 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

Posts: 2597
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Reduced cohesion has two main effects:

1) It reduces the amount of purchase points the BG gains every turn.

2) It reduces the overall force morale for the BG in a battle (making your force morale 'break' easier).

The effects are not linear, however. If you keep a BG's cohesion 'in the green' (above about 70%) you won't see much of a penalty at all.   As the cohesion drops below this the effects become more pronounced.  If cohesion drops 'into the red' at the low end of the scale (below about 30-40%) the affect become magnified.

There is also an effective speed reduction to the BG if it drops below 'green' cohesion, making it act as if it were one speed rating slower, and an additional one level of speed reduction if it drops to 'red' cohesion.  The speed rating is used to determine which BG gets to move first (and interrupt the other) when they are coming at each other head-on.

As Andrew pointed about above, the rating bar for cohesion shows in 10% increments, so it won't always show small changes in the current rating.  And it is also a scaled system, so the lower the current cohesion, the more benefit you get from resting, and the higher the cohesion, the less the benefit.

All that being said, a good rule of thumb is that if you keep your cohesion bar 'in the green' (around 70-80% or above) you will rarely have to worry about the effects.  Resting overnight is generally the best strategy, but even this can be ignored for a day or two if necessary.  If it falls into the 'red' (30-40% or below) the BG will be fighting with magnified cohesion penalties.

Resting overnight will restore the most cohesion to a battle group. Resting for a day turn will restore about 20% of the full night's amount.  Also, a BG that rests will usually get to bring in replacements to fill out soldiers in depleted units, though this can fail to happen if the BG is in the moderate to low range of cohesion, or is not fully supplied.

Any movement and/or combat reduces cohesion by a small amount.  The big source of cohesion loss is losing a battle.  Being forced to retreat is a very big hit.  Just having your force morale break increases the cohesion loss for combat significantly, and there are additional penalties if you manage to lose very quickly (in the first few minutes) or in a very lopsided manner (your losses are very high and opponents losses are very low).

Hope that helps,

Steve

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Post #: 23
RE: Cohesion - 11/13/2010 11:38:27 PM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: gibsons b.c. canada
Status: offline 		wow..that helped allot....thanks Steve. theres allot more to it than meets the eye.
so just to clarifie...OVERNIGHT means just the 1 Nite turn to get the most benifit.......

(in reply to Steve McClaire)
Post #: 24
RE: Cohesion - 11/14/2010 1:46:12 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Yes

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Post #: 25
RE: Cohesion - 11/15/2010 12:21:13 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6112
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		From this scenario quoted from above...

quote:

Cohesion and fatigue use an internal system in the game engine called a 'trait'.   When you adjust a 'trait' value the amount of increase / decrease is scaled based on the magnitude of the current value and the magnitude of the change.  The closer to the maximum the current value is, the less of any increase is applied, and vice-versa.

As an example, if you rest a BG overnight it should recover about 1/3 the amount of cohesion it is down from the maximum.  If your BG is at 50% cohesion and your rest overnight it will be at about 66%.  If it rests overnight again it will be at about 77%.  Resting a 1% cohesion BG over night should take it to ~33%.

tLD example: Resting for one day turn in TLD (with 4 turns per day) will only get you back ~4% cohesion if you're at 50%.

Note: There are only 10 graphical states in tLD/WaR so a 4% increase may not register graphically



Resting during a day turn... compared to a night turn

quote:

Resting for a day turn will restore about 20% of the full night's amount.


Resting during night at 50% will give you back approx 16% as opposed to approx 4% for resting during day.


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Post #: 26
RE: Cohesion - 11/16/2010 12:40:24 AM   
xe5

 

Posts: 781
Joined: 5/3/2009
Status: offline 		If a BG sits in place on a map and engages in no activity, does it accrue any benefits similar to Rest?

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Post #: 27
RE: Cohesion - 11/18/2010 1:20:33 AM   
Steve McClaire

 

Posts: 2597
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5
If a BG sits in place on a map and engages in no activity, does it accrue any benefits similar to Rest?


Any BG that does not move automatically regains a small amount of cohesion. The amount is the same it would have lost, had it moved, so it's much less than resting. Not fighting just means you don't take the combat cohesion loss.



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Post #: 28
RE: Cohesion - 11/28/2011 4:31:05 AM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 2677
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: online 		A lot of people have stated that Cohesion's affect/impact seems very limited, here are a couple ideas to make it a bit more noticeable;

On Strat Map;
- Decrease BG speed (this is used to determine who gets to advance when two BG's move towards each other)
- Increase chance of redirection (if enabled BG's some times move the wrong way)

In battle;
- Disorganized squads on the BG Screen start with less/limited ammo

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/28/2011 5:14:15 AM >

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Post #: 29
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