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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

 
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/9/2010 2:39:34 AM   
BigDuke66


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Well question would be when in September, despite HG Mitte not advancing Panzergruppe 2 had its action advancing south and Panzergruppe 4 moved to HG Mitte(not sure in what state they were), but at least Panzergruppe 3 seems to didn't see much action, so losses could still have occurred if the numbers are from early September.
I also wonder from what the Panzer Divisions should be rebuild, Hitler personally held back the major part of the production for forming new units.

BTW Could you take a look how this table looks in your version of "Germany and the Second World War" Volume 4?
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/Book.jpg
I guess normally shades of gray should be seen but even with the scan enhancing the contrast a bit everything looks still too black and can't be distinguish, is your version better?


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 12:04:06 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Albert Seaton's book gives some general tank numbers as a percentage of establishment at the end of September, which he credits to Das Heer, volume 3, chapter 10 :

1 Panzer Group = 70-80
2 Panzer Group = 50
3 Panzer Group = 70-80
4 Panzer Group = 100

How does the scenario handle phasing in the IIIj's and IVf's ?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 1:47:03 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I was too interested myself so I played a bit with the numbers:
The calculation is base on "Germany and the Second World War: Volume IV: The Attack on the Soviet Union"
http://www.amazon.com/Germany-Second-World-War-Attack/dp/0198228864/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289177083&sr=1-1

On the east front on 1st October 1941:
Panzer I = -77(Yes indeed more losses than tanks on the front + replacements)
Panzer II & IIF = 490
Panzer III = 676
Panzer 38(t) = 227
Panzer IV = 246
Panzerbefehlsw. = 98
Sturmgeschütz III = 202
Panzer 35(t) = ?(No losses or replacements listed)

Percentage of starting strength:
Panzer I = -27,40%(Yes indeed more losses than tanks on the front + replacements)
Panzer II & IIF = 65,95%
Panzer III = 69,05%
Panzer 38(t) = 34,87%
Panzer IV = 55,41%
Panzerbefehlsw. = 68,53%
Sturmgeschütz III = 80,80%
Panzer 35(t) = ?(No losses or replacements listed)

So if you use the percentage on the German tank units and round it up you should get pretty close to my numbers, maybe a bit more but as I said that seems OK anyway as you can see in case of Panzer I either the loss reports were simply overstated or some numbers are wrong.

Good would also be to place the big replacement shipment for October directly into the Pool, maybe lower it a bit as I don't know how much HG Mitte got of these:
October 1941 replacement:
Panzer I = 0
Panzer II & IIF = 1
Panzer III = 187
Panzer 38(t) = 72
Panzer IV = 56
Panzerbefehlsw. = 0
Sturmgeschütz III = 7


I'm not sure how to simulate the Panzerbefehlswagen, until now it looks to me the those with a real armament(5cm KwK) came not until 1942, before that they only seem to have had a MG 34, but as they were command tanks something stronger should be used to simulate there effect on the whole unit.


Another idea is that you may alter TOE a German Panzer Division to this "ideal":
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/Heer/Panzerdivision41.htm
As you see no
-Panzer I(well except the Panzerbefehlswagen maybe),
-Panzer 35(t)(I read they were phased out in late 1941 but saw action again as they were used for the 22. Panzerdivision and so appeared on the east front again)
-Panzer 38(t)(was still produced until July 1942 but from the last order of 500 only 321 were delivered before contract was canceled so they should stay longer in the game)


Very interesting!

So a closer look at Jentz's tables might get us closer to this information. The numbers I was using are shown as "at start" on tables labelled "September 1". So I thought that meant "at start as of September 1". But perhaps they mean "at start as of June 22". He then has additional lines of data that report "operational" and "repairable". So totalling his numbers, we get:

"At start" (all pz units in Russian theatre)
Pz I 337
Pz II 756
t35 155
t38 394
PzIII 1352
PzIV 439
PzBef 224

"Operational and repairable"
Pz I 149
Pz II 604
t35 110
t38 289
PzIII 936
PzIV 323
PzBef 186

If we take your GerWWII tables (adding the principal and replacement pool):
Pz I ?
Pz II 491
t35 110
t38 299
PzIII 863
PzIV 302
PzBef 98

Which seems pretty close. So maybe Jentz' "operational and repairable" figures are more accurate than the "at start" numbers I am perhaps misreading.







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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 1:50:15 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Albert Seaton's book gives some general tank numbers as a percentage of establishment at the end of September, which he credits to Das Heer, volume 3, chapter 10 :

1 Panzer Group = 70-80
2 Panzer Group = 50
3 Panzer Group = 70-80
4 Panzer Group = 100

How does the scenario handle phasing in the IIIj's and IVf's ?


I didn't try to do that in this build (although it is pretty easy to do) because I don't have any detailed info on those transitions, unit-by-unit. Do you have a source (and thanx!)?


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 2:03:03 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well question would be when in September, despite HG Mitte not advancing Panzergruppe 2 had its action advancing south and Panzergruppe 4 moved to HG Mitte(not sure in what state they were), but at least Panzergruppe 3 seems to didn't see much action, so losses could still have occurred if the numbers are from early September.
I also wonder from what the Panzer Divisions should be rebuild, Hitler personally held back the major part of the production for forming new units.

BTW Could you take a look how this table looks in your version of "Germany and the Second World War" Volume 4?
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/Book.jpg
I guess normally shades of gray should be seen but even with the scan enhancing the contrast a bit everything looks still too black and can't be distinguish, is your version better?


That table is on pages 222-223 of the English edition. It is printed pretty clearly, with the lighter greyed out boxes almost always indicating French or Czech equipment. So in armoured group 3, for example, 14-mot is shown with French vehicles; 20-mot shown with czech tanks and french vehicles; 7th armoured with Czech tanks; 28-mot with French vehicles; 19-arm with czech tanks; 12-arm with czech tanks.

(An amazing and excellent series of books but also amazingly expensive (look at what the cost of amazon.com these days! Volume IV costs $447.98. I've bought volumes II, IV and V and can't handle the sticker shock for the balance.)


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 5:28:41 AM   
BigDuke66


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I checked the Jentz tables with some from Battistelli's "Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941-43" and indeed Jentz "At start" entries are from the start of Operation Barbarossa.


Check your calculation from the Jentz tables, I think you mixed P III and P 38(t) sometimes:
"At start"
Panzer III 966
Panzer 38 (t) 625
"Operational and repairable"
Panzer III 749
Panzer 38 (t) 476


I have put Jentz tables into Excel too and what came out is a average strength of 72,54% between 22.8.41-10.9.41, my is 58,68% for 1.10.41 both compared to the numbers at the start of Barbarossa, when you consider that some units had over a month of combat still ahead my lower % makes sense.

Comparing percentages:
Type = Ger2WW vs. Jentz
Panzer I = -27,40% vs. 44,21%
Panzer II & IIF = 65,95% vs. 79,89%
Panzer III = 69,05% vs. 74,38%
Panzer 38(t) = 34,87% vs. 72,12%
Panzer IV = 55,41% vs. 72,61%
Panzerbefehlsw. = 68,53% vs. 83,04%
Panzer 35(t) = ?% vs. 70,06%

So using the "At start" numbers and applying my percentages(well except Panzer I & Panzer 35 (t)) should give you a good set up for 1.10.41.
You could also take a look at these numbers:
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/Panzer%20Divisions%20-%20The%20Eastern%20Front%201941-43%20page%2020.pdf
Panzer I is missing but it distinguishes the Panzer III (KwK 3,7cm) & Panzer III (KwK 5cm) and that will maybe help if you want to model the units more detailed.


Regarding the book scan, could you make a scan of your table and send it over?
Maybe I can than try to make it on more visible on my book.

And did you try Ebay for getting the rest of the series?
I got it my complete that way, with the last(Volume 6) arriving today, but we're a bit lucky anyway as almost all(except volume 8) are still(or again as they started to re-release the out-of-print volumes) available for the normal price of 49,80€, but when I started to collect it the first few were not available anymore(who wonders, Volume 1 was released 1979) and Ebay was the only way to get it and that even cheaper than the normal price so I stayed with it and have saved over 286,-€.
But speaking of expensive I just bought 3 volumes of map books for over 300,-€ and have 2 more on the list for another 300,- but well if they really are that good I guess it's worth it.

Speaking of Panzer Battalion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xju6f3kW1jM&feature=related

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/10/2010 5:56:34 AM >


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 12:04:08 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Albert Seaton's book gives some general tank numbers as a percentage of establishment at the end of September, which he credits to Das Heer, volume 3, chapter 10 :

1 Panzer Group = 70-80
2 Panzer Group = 50
3 Panzer Group = 70-80
4 Panzer Group = 100

How does the scenario handle phasing in the IIIj's and IVf's ?


I didn't try to do that in this build (although it is pretty easy to do) because I don't have any detailed info on those transitions, unit-by-unit. Do you have a source (and thanx!)?




I don't have a unit by unit source. Different sources always list different numbers, so I've just compiled general notes from all over. I think both models were issued to all pz div's, some going to Africa.

PzIIIh - produced 308, 10-40 to 4-41.
PzIIIj - produced 2616, 3-41 to 7-42.
I would guess that some IIIj's had probably arrived at the front by 10-41.

PzIVe - produced 233, 9-40 to 4-41.
PzIVf1- produced 487, 4-41 to 3-42.
PzIVf2 - produced 200, 3-42 to 5-42.
The more numerous IVg's started production in 5-42, but are not in TOAW, but I think are interchangeable with the IVf2.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/10/2010 12:24:08 PM   
sPzAbt653


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But then I checked the catch-all quick reference of Wiki, and there it is stated that both the IIIj's and IVf's didn't reach the eastern front until the spring of 1942.

Maybe a 0/20 IIIj and 0/10 IVf2 added to the pz units would be ok, with production starting in spring '42 ? The IVe's could be stopped a little earlier, to prevent the units getting over tanked. The IIIh's and 35/38t's might have to stay as they are because they are first line equipment. However, we've noticed in D21 that some of the discontinued equipment stays around for a long time, so it might be ok to stop those models around the spring '42 also.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/12/2010 5:57:21 AM   
BigDuke66


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Battistelli's book differs the P III by either the 3,7-cm-KwK L/45(ending with F) and 5-cm-KwK L/42(beginning with G) but a lot older models upgrade to the 5cm canon too.
I guess at least those 2 versions(F & G) should be in, maybe H(armor doubled on bow and turret bay welding additional armor onto the tank), J(longer 5-cm-KwK L/60) and N(short 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24,taking the job of the short barrel P IV for use against infantry) too as the values in TOAW would surely look different.

Same counts for the P IV with its short 7,5 cm KwK L/24(not good against tanks, ending with F1) and the long 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/43(good against tanks, could kill a T-34 up to 1000m, starting with F2).


About the scenario I think the end could be a bit earlier, I would recommend the start of the Spring mud season in April, that was also the time the German Panzer units started to reorganize to a new layout that saw the Panzer IV now as the main tank vs. tank element and the late P III with it's short 7,5 as anti-infantry tank.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/12/2010 6:41:53 AM   
BigDuke66


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Is the deployment of the German units also based on "Guderian’s Blitzkreig II" or did you use another source?

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 4:25:14 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Is the deployment of the German units also based on "Guderian’s Blitzkreig II" or did you use another source?


It's the GBII setup with a bit of tinkering (gbii gives 2nd pzgroup a 1.5x turn on turn one to simulate guderian's early start. I've moved the setup forward since this can't be replicated in toaw).

I'm back home after being out of town will see if I get you that scan tomorrow and will think about the suggestions above re tank park many thanks.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 5:16:27 PM   
briantopp

 

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Somebody, somewhere, must have figured out what tanks the Germans produced in 1941-1943 and where they went.

But this seems hard to find in English and as far as I can see the clearest report is to be found on wikipedia, quoting the available English-language sources.

So with regard to the PZIIIs, the wikipedia post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III) reports the following:

Panzer III Ausf. A, B, C, D - Pre-production models in 1937-1938. 75 produced.

Panzer III Ausf. E, F - Production models 1939-1940. Armed with 3.7 cm KwK 36 L/46.5 (later 5 cm KwK 38 L/42) guns. 531 produced.

Panzer III Ausf. G - More armour on gun mantlet. Armed with 5 cm KwK 38 L/42 gun. 600 produced in 1940-1941.

Panzer III Ausf. H - Minor modifications. Bolt-on armor added to front and rear hull (30 mm + 30 mm plates). 308 produced in 1940-1941.

Panzer III Ausf. I - Variant mentioned in Allied intelligence reports but not an actual existing vehicle.

Panzer III Ausf. J - The hull was lengthened. Front armor increased to 50 mm plate. 482 produced in 1941.

Panzer III Ausf. J¹ - Equipped with the longer and more powerful 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 gun. 1,067 produced in late 1941 to mid 1942.

Panzer III Ausf. K - Panzerbefehlswagen command tank variant with a modified turret. Carried actual main armament rather than a dummy gun as found on other Panzer III command versions.

Panzer III Ausf. L - Uparmored to 50 mm + 20 mm plates. 653 produced in 1942.

Panzer III Ausf. M - Minor modifications such as deep-wading exhaust and schurzen. 250 produced in 1942-1943.

Panzer III Ausf. N - Armed with a short barreled 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 gun, due to 7.5 cm gun's ability to fire HEAT rounds. 700 re-equipped J/L/M models in 1942-1943

For TOAW purposes in a scenario that starts in October 1941 and ends in April 1943, this could perhaps be simplified this way:

PzIIIJ: 1067 produced between Oct 1 1941-June 1 1942 (14 per turn or so)
PzIIIL: 653 produced between June 1 1942-Dec 1 1942 (14 per turn or so)
PzIIIN: 700 produced between Oct 1 1942-April 1 1943 (14 per turn or so)

That is still three equipment transitions – kind of busy for TOAW.

But remembering that we are in the realm of “alternative history” perhaps this can be further simplified this way.

Jentz reports on page 215 of Panzertruppen vol. 1 that on March 12, 1942, OKW/OKH ordered 6th, 7th and 10th panzers to be withdrawn to be refit. The plan contemplated their return as follows: 10th panzer July 15/42; 6th panzer August 1/42; 7th panzer September 1/42. This refit coincides with the PZIIIL production. It is also true (as Jentz reports on page 215) that between May and June of 1942, the panzer divisions of AGS were expanded to include a third “panzer-abteilung”, cannibalized in large part from divisions in AGN and AGC. However, this would not occur in this scenario, since the focus of the German offensive remains in AGC. So we could speculate that in these circumstances OKW/OKH would instead reinforce the three withdrawn/rebuilt panzer divisions to give them each three panzer battalions.

So we could give the rebuilt 6th, 7th and 10th panzers three fully-established battalions of PZIIIL tanks; cheat a little by feathering the balance of PzIIIL production into PzIIIJ production, average production at say 11 per turn between October 1, 1941 and December 1 1942, and only have two equipment transitions to worry about. A say 0.75% per turn continuing production of “Ls” could simulate the ongoing need to repair and recondition existing runners.

The “L” type seems to mostly be about enhanced armour, so the performance hit of having slightly fewer “L”s and slightly more “J”s should be tolerable.

Giving each panzer battalion (other than 6th, 7th and 10th panzer) say 20 pzIIIJ “slots” should result in these tanks filtering into all of the battalions, assuming they are all still in existence.

We could then do the same with the pzIIINs, giving each panzer battalion a chance to field some of these HEAT-equipped runners. Jentz comments on page 219 that “there was no uniformity in issuing the pzIIIN with the 7.5cm gun. Panzer regiment 7 didn’t receive any; panzer regiment 11 receive 32 to 35n and panzer regiment 25 received 14”. But since we don’t have any further detail, this deployment can just be averaged out.

What to do with the large park of earlier-model tanks the scenario begins with? The trusty Jentz notes that a remarkable number of panzers of all types went in for repairs over the course of this campaign. I think this means that production of “J” tanks can’t just be halted in mid-scenario because to do so would mean they would disappear from the game, when in fact many disabled runners were repaired and returned to the field. I’m thinking a rounded-down production (something like 0.75% per turn) to simulate repairs and returns.

What to do with the PZIVs?

We read in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV) that production was as follows:

1941 769 IVe produced (7 per turn)
1942 880 IVe-g produced (8 per turn)
April 1 1943 3013 IVH produced (28 per turn)

So the problem is in 1942 and (presumably) in early 1943 – when 880 runners simulated in TOAW as IVF1s and IVf2s enter the war.

I think the IVh type is beyond the scope of this scenario since it seems unlikely they would arrive in force before its end, production only starting in April 1943. This new production also represents a fundamental shift in the organization of the pz battalions with the replacement of the type III with the type IV as the main anti-armour battle tank – probably also outside of the scope of this scenario.

I guess, in the absence of any better information, the thing to do here is to feather their reinforcements evenly into all of the panzer battalions and to leave a residual “repair production” for the existing park.

How does that look?












< Message edited by briantopp -- 11/13/2010 5:19:54 PM >

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 5:44:22 PM   
briantopp

 

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With regard to the pzIIIm production (250 runners) I could perhaps simply ignore it as production being hoarded, sent to other theaters, and otherwise dissipated.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 8:55:34 PM   
briantopp

 

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GSWW table, part 1

Attachment (1)

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 8:55:58 PM   
briantopp

 

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GSWW table part 2

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 10:57:16 PM   
BigDuke66


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Regarding the PIII:
On one side we have some early PIII with 3,7cm KwK still on the front in October 1941 & older versions(E, F, G) upgraded(gun from 37mm L/45 to 50mm L/42 & armor), on the other side the upgraded PIIIH(adding 30mm armour plates) & the PIIIJ(with 50mm armor), considering all this and looking at the TOAW values I think the PIIIH seems right to simulate them all the superior & inferior models.
After that it gets harder as the PIIIJ(starting production in December 1941) seems right to simulate the late J version with 50mm L/60 KwK, the PIIIL should also be in to cover L & M versions with the thicker & new multi-armor and finally the PIIIN with its new gun should of course also be in.
Maybe you could edit the values of the equipment to can make a version that simulates an average tank covering the range from the late J to the M version this would bring you down to using 3 different PIII.

Production figures are:
E=96(up to October 1939)
F=435(September 1939 - July 1940)
G=450(April 1940 - February 1941)
H=308(October 1940 - April 1941)
J(50mm L/42)=1549(March 1941 - July 1942)
J(50mm L/60)=1067(starting December 1941)
L=703(June 1942 - December 1942)
M=292(October 1942 - February 1943)
N=666(June 1942 - December 1943)


Regarding the PIV:
The PIVE(DF=21, armor=4) or F1(DF=20, armor=5) seem right to cover the PIVD to PIVF1, after that the PIVF2 seems right to cover the F1 & G versions with the much stronger gun and better armor(G). The PIVH really comes in too late even if you want to let the scenario run past the spring mud season(I think that would be the perfect date to end the scenario).

Production figures are:
D=202(October 1939 - December 1940)
E=223(December 1939 - February 1941)
F1=462(April 1941 - March 1942)
F2=190(March 1942 - July 1942)
G=1687(May 1942 - June 1943)

I advise to edited the equipment names to incorporate all version letters a tank simulates so it does lead to question/corrections that are nor necessary after the release.


Now to deployment, I got my hand on a excellent map for 1st October 1941 and if you don't mind I post some corrections to the deployment.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/13/2010 11:08:05 PM   
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YES , many thanks Brian that will be very helpful to edit my tables!

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 12:48:03 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Now to deployment, I got my hand on a excellent map for 1st October 1941 and if you don't mind I post some corrections to the deployment.


I dont mind at all. Do you mind using the appended file? It's the most current one: I've been updating as I go along. Looking forward to seeing what you've got. All the best bt


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 3:27:45 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

...what tanks the Germans produced in 1941-1943 and where they went.


'AchtungPanzer.com/panzer-profiles-1917-1945' gives a good general overview, which can then be modified to be scenario specific. It seems that the numbers you have posted are right in line with them.

quote:

What to do with the large park of earlier-model tanks the scenario begins with?


I think it bears repeating what I said earlier, that sometimes discontinued equipment stays around for a long time. Playtesting can reveal if the desired effects are reasonably portrayed.

quote:

What to do with the PZIVs?


I agree that the IVh is beyond this scenario. I believe that some of the refit/transitions
can be handled by adding empty slots to the units that will allow new types to enter at appropriate times. The first line equipment is the most important. I think the pzIII's were the main battle tank of the panzer divisions for the time frame of this scenario. Again, playtesting will prove what types might need special attention in order to keep the panzer units from becoming too tank heavy. Giving a unit 0/20 IIIj's doesn't mean that it is guaranteed it will get those 20 at any point.

If the first line equipment is needed to be changed at some point for any particular unit, it can be done with a Theater Option that withdraws the original unit and replaces it with a newly arriving one (as a reinforcement). The new unit can then have a whole new equipment lineup.

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Post #: 79
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 3:43:19 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I'm up to turn 52 and a few thoughts: The Luftwaffe has taken big losses and the combat reports often show numbers, for example, Axis lose 47 planes, Soviets lose 26 planes. I don't know if anyone else has experienced this or if anything should be done about it.

The 170's in the Axis artillery units allow them to support anything within a range of 7, as opposed to the shorter range of the other equipment in those units. Could be just me, but I'd rather see the 170's in some other unit, maybe the corps hq's. It might not even be a bad idea to put them in separate 'heavy artillery' units with a low movement allowance. I think that even though there were many produced (338?), there were never many in action on the east front at one time. Maybe each army can be given a battery of 12 or 18?

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Post #: 80
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 5:43:44 PM   
briantopp

 

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Excellent suggestion on the heavy art.

Luftwaffe: they did get their butts kicked by about the middle of this scenario. But the loss ratios shouldn't be grossly disproportionate perhaps the units need a proficiency tweak on both sides.

I've implemented much of what you suggest in the prior post re PzIIIs and will post a new build shortly, after a couple more playtest runs.

So how is it working out so far? Did you take Moscow? Did you keep it?

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Post #: 81
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 11:01:23 PM   
PRUSSIAN TOM

 

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I skipped ahead...using the new default settings this is QUITE a nice scenario (PO:Soviets). I think everyone wants to take Moscow by '41. This puppy is making me work for it. Kudos to whohever gave Elmer Tactical advice. It's not CFNA, but is is running a close second (I play it almost as much as CFNA). So far (4 games) Elmer has been one tough cookie. I would not envy anyone playing one of the persons who design scenarios in this one. Right now, The PO (with +1) is giving me hell, and keeping me honest.

Another Good Job.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/14/2010 11:18:12 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Did you take Moscow?


I just reached Moscow a couple turns ago and last turn attacked into some of the urban hexes. 3rd Pz Grp is moving in from the north and 2nd Pz Grp is moving up from the south (off screen). I've been advancing slow so as to keep the units in good condition. Once the mud goes I think I can clear the area up to the stop line (already there in the north and south) and then set up a defense and some reserves, and then see what Elmer throws at me over the next 120 turns.

I'm not sure but maybe the German 16th Army historically couldn't advance east with the open northern flank/map edge. I'm not sure if the 18th Army could have covered that flank (from Staraya Russa to the stop line). It may give the Axis an advantage to be able to advance without garrisoning that area. If I get a chance to play again, maybe I will impose a restriction on myself by leaving some garrison units up there and see how it plays out.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 83
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 12:14:57 AM   
briantopp

 

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Here is the latest build of this scenario -- quite a number of tweaks informed by the discussions above and more playtesting.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 84
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 12:17:40 AM   
briantopp

 

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A good point about 16th army (depending on what else was happening to the north) remembering that isn't all of 16th army. A tweak to the "Stop line" could address it maybe.

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Post #: 85
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 3:46:37 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

... that isn't all of 16th army.


Good enough, I knew you had it thought out but it was something that made me wonder so I had to mention it. Thanks.

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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 4:15:31 AM   
briantopp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

... that isn't all of 16th army.


Good enough, I knew you had it thought out but it was something that made me wonder so I had to mention it. Thanks.

I hadn't thought it out too too much I confess -- basically following the reference game which puts that bit of 16th army in play. but you're raising a real issue of realism here -- clearly the farther the 16th army gets from the lake the more unlikely the deployment becomes. Going to have to do something about it. Maybe a "16th army stop line?"

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Post #: 87
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 9:40:17 AM   
BigDuke66


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Looking at the map from 6th December 1941 indeed something has to be done as it took a lot to cover this flank and the 16. Armee was still back at the the lakes.
Look here I hope that helps:
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online.de/HGMitte6.12.1941.jpg

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/17/2010 1:37:35 AM >


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Post #: 88
RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 9:51:07 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Looking at the map from 6th December 1941 ...
Isn't too big is it?

Awesome map! Where does that come from?


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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943" - 11/15/2010 10:09:37 AM   
BigDuke66


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It's this book:
http://www.amazon.de/Zweite-Weltkrieg-Kartenbild-Ostfeldzug-21-6-1941-6-12-1941/dp/3764823380/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289815509&sr=1-5

Bought if over Ebay together with the Case White and Weserübung volumes saving 76 euros, and because the Balkan/Greek volume was the most expensive on Ebay(what surprised me) and I didn't get it I took the chance and bought it together with the Case Yellow/Red volume directly on Amazon, I just waited too long to miss the chance to get them you see them wer seldom on Ebay or Amazon I think the last time was maybe 1-2 years ago.

But guess what my bank account says to this Jihad style shopping tour. .

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 11/15/2010 10:20:00 AM >


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