JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless?

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JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless?

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JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 9:06:57 PM

Puhis

Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

Here's the thing. It's just 8/42, and I have lost 6 CVs. Only Akagi and Kaga are left. And the small ones too, but they are all damaged. I've also lost 3 BBs, last one was Yamato. 4 CAs are lost, and also CS Nisshin and Chiyoda are gone.

Allied have lost just one CV (Formidable). Also 5 BBs are listed as sunk, but I think only 3 are probable. So carrier battles have been very one-sided, besides Formidable 1 or 2 other allied CVs have only been sligthly damaged. (BTW, during the last battle, allied DBs scored 46 % hit rate. No wonder my fleet was badly beated. Bad dice rolls maybe...

)

When is situation hopeless? I know that 1943 there's no chance trying to stop US navy, but how about even rest of the 1942?

I don't want to ba a quitter, but when it's OK to surrender?

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Post #: 1

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 9:15:08 PM

Feltan

Posts: 567
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline

Hi Puhis,

In my last PBEM, my oppenet was the Japanese and he surrendered in March '43. It was not entirely unexpected, and he was in a similar situation as you find yourself.

I don't think there is a big bright line that separates "surrender" from "quitting." However, if I had to make a call, I'd say play out all of 1942. As 1943 starts one generally can discern which way the game is headed.

Lastly, offering a concession is entirely different than quitting (i.e., not responding to email). The first shows class and good manners, the latter does not.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 2

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 9:30:55 PM

cavalry

Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline

You intended to go the distance and you should unless he offers you to surrender . You risked your forces expecting glory no doubt? Do you think the Emperor would expect you to surrender the empire withot first putting yourself on your own sword:)

I offered my Allied oppoenent surrender at the end of 42 after he had lost 4 CV and 6 BB to my one BB ( WITP )

He fought on and has made some remarkable gains and now its in Feb44 and quite an interesting game. I am still to loose a single CV though I have had 3 badly damaged and lost another BB and about three badly damaged.

Cav

(in reply to Feltan)

Post #: 3

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 9:41:10 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 9008
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: online

You have not yet begun to fight!

Unless you are totally mismatched against your opponent, you can hold out into 1944 at a minium. The Allies are NOT able to go wherever they want to in 1943...by any stretch of the imagination.

Okay, so you've lost your mobile fightng force. Dig in and figure out ways to improvise. You will never know just how tough Japan can be until you go through this kind of situation.

In other words, sticking with the game will teach you alot. It will make you a more knowledgeable and skilfull player in the future.

(in reply to cavalry)

Post #: 4

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 9:48:49 PM

Puhis

Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

Well, I guess I'm not going to surrender yet, I still have 5 carriers to lose.

Burma/India border area is another pain in the ass. British seem to have endless number of planes and troops there...

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 5

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 10:13:51 PM

cap_and_gown

Posts: 2691
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Build more Carriers!

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 6

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 10:16:56 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 14826
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You have not yet begun to fight!

Unless you are totally mismatched against your opponent, you can hold out into 1944 at a minium. The Allies are NOT able to go wherever they want to in 1943...by any stretch of the imagination.

Okay, so you've lost your mobile fightng force. Dig in and figure out ways to improvise. You will never know just how tough Japan can be until you go through this kind of situation.

In other words, sticking with the game will teach you alot. It will make you a more knowledgeable and skilfull player in the future.

I try not to agree with blatant AFBs like Canoerebel (tongue inserted firmly in cheek here, fellows), but he's right here.

Hold out until the Divine Wind, for goodness sake! The Divine Wind shall sweep the Yankee dogs out to sea, whence they shall disappear forever! BANZAI!!!

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Post #: 7

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 10:27:52 PM

topeverest

Posts: 1609
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Atlanta, GA - USA
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Puhis,

I do not agree the situation is hopeless. Its no more hopeless than when KB is intact on December 7, 1941. You will have to change tactics, but I would set a goal of surviving until Jan 1, 1945. Then reset your naval ship production priorities to begin.

You will lean more about the game...and yourself...by continuing the fight.

James Lawrence and John Paul Jones said it best "Don't give up the Ship! / I Have not yet begun to fight!"

As an aside, you should carefully determine what events transpired to have such losses to the KB. Did you employ poor tactics? You need to understand so that you can go forward and expand as a player.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 8

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/20/2010 10:30:59 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 9008
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I try not to agree with blatant AFBs like Canoerebel...

Chickenboy is jealous because I am a southerner who is tanned, supple and winsome in a modest yet alluring way.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 9

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 12:17:02 AM

Historiker

Posts: 4714
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You have not yet begun to fight!

Unless you are totally mismatched against your opponent, you can hold out into 1944 at a minium. The Allies are NOT able to go wherever they want to in 1943...by any stretch of the imagination.

Okay, so you've lost your mobile fightng force. Dig in and figure out ways to improvise. You will never know just how tough Japan can be until you go through this kind of situation.

In other words, sticking with the game will teach you alot. It will make you a more knowledgeable and skilfull player in the future.

I try not to agree with blatant AFBs like Canoerebel (tongue inserted firmly in cheek here, fellows), but he's right here.

Hold out until the Divine Wind, for goodness sake! The Divine Wind shall sweep the Yankee dogs out to sea, whence they shall disappear forever! BANZAI!!!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 10

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:23:27 AM

Mac Linehan

Posts: 1017
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Here's the thing. It's just 8/42, and I have lost 6 CVs. Only Akagi and Kaga are left. And the small ones too, but they are all damaged. I've also lost 3 BBs, last one was Yamato. 4 CAs are lost, and also CS Nisshin and Chiyoda are gone.

Allied have lost just one CV (Formidable). Also 5 BBs are listed as sunk, but I think only 3 are probable. So carrier battles have been very one-sided, besides Formidable 1 or 2 other allied CVs have only been sligthly damaged. (BTW, during the last battle, allied DBs scored 46 % hit rate. No wonder my fleet was badly beated. Bad dice rolls maybe... )

When is situation hopeless? I know that 1943 there's no chance trying to stop US navy, but how about even rest of the 1942?

I don't want to ba a quitter, but when it's OK to surrender?

Puhis -

The Emperor is highly displeased with you thoughts. The Kempeitai is en route to your HQ - to help correct your errant behavinor...

Banzai!

P.S. My respect to you for hanging in there, I will follow with interest..

Mac

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LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 11

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:40:50 AM

wdolson

Posts: 7032
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

I think a lot would depend on your opponent. Some people like to play to the end regardless of what happens, others are OK accepting surrender and starting over. I'd discuss it with your opponent.

It sounds like the USN SBDs have been training. I've seen similar performance from extremely experienced dive bombers. I saw an A-24 strike of 16 panes get 11 hits once, but some of the pilots in the squadron had naval attack skills in the high 80s and all pilots had good experience levels.

With six intact USN CVs and you with only a couple, the fight is going to be a tough one. You can delay the Allies, but the game will likely run its course in a shorter time frame than the real war.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mac Linehan)

Post #: 12

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:49:31 AM

pws1225

Posts: 563
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: online

Me thinks it's a game. You and your opponent started it for your mutual enjoyment. It seems he has earned the right to enjoy the fruits of his victories so far. It would be less than honorable to deny him those fruits. He earned them, let him try to enjoy them.

But you have an advantage now that he does not. Your back is against the wall. You will learn how to adapt and fight in ways he does not expect. You can find ways to exploit his inevitable over-confidence. Lay back a bit, see where he pushes forward, then hit him with everything you have exactly where he is not looking. He has the hammer, but you still have the knife. Use it!

It's just a game. Play it for everything it's worth! Bonzai!!

Best regards, Paul

(in reply to Mac Linehan)

Post #: 13

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 2:04:43 AM

jomni

Posts: 2518
Joined: 11/19/2007
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Keep playing even if you lose ALL your carriers. This makes you think of new (defensive) strategies which may actually turn out to be fun. Your opponent will respect you for this.

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(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 14

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 4:11:22 AM

Nomad

Posts: 4368
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: Northern Rockies
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Here's the thing. It's just 8/42, and I have lost 6 CVs. Only Akagi and Kaga are left. And the small ones too, but they are all damaged. I've also lost 3 BBs, last one was Yamato. 4 CAs are lost, and also CS Nisshin and Chiyoda are gone.

Allied have lost just one CV (Formidable). Also 5 BBs are listed as sunk, but I think only 3 are probable. So carrier battles have been very one-sided, besides Formidable 1 or 2 other allied CVs have only been sligthly damaged. (BTW, during the last battle, allied DBs scored 46 % hit rate. No wonder my fleet was badly beated. Bad dice rolls maybe... )

When is situation hopeless? I know that 1943 there's no chance trying to stop US navy, but how about even rest of the 1942?

I don't want to ba a quitter, but when it's OK to surrender?

As Japan, when you start the first turn it is hopeless!

_____________________________

Don't ask me any questions, apparently I know nothing about WitP:AE

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 15

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 6:25:53 AM

PaxMondo

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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As Japan, when you start the first turn it is hopeless!

There is more than a grain of truth here. As IJ, you start knowing you WILL lose. This isn't up for discussion. What can be impacted by good play is WHEN, and if you can make this late enough by game standards you can win even though you lose the war.

As others have stated, you have lost a key mobile reaction force and with it your initiative earlier than you might have. However, it doesn't appear that you have lost much else. Ergo, there is still a lot of game left to play. You are simply entering the defensive phase earlier than many games, but actually on an almost historical timeline. Akagi/Kaga are better than Shokaku/Zuikaku, so you are doing better than Yamamoto did IRL.

Good Luck!

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 16

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 7:51:46 AM

tigercub

Posts: 1352
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: chiang mai ,thailand
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A lot Japanese players get victory fever (stay in range of your land based bettys and there zeros)and take the risk early in the war to push forward with KB but when you do this you are open to a early loss of your CVs.......To expand quickly after FEB 42, before is ok i think the US are getting ready, i use a group of about 250 engineer squads ready to build up a base to put my bettys and zeros on and move to the next base and so on, its slower but much safer to have 90 bettys with 60 escorts sitting there to back your KB up...a JFB has only a very small chance to win an Auto victory best not to give that chance away to early.

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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 17

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 8:02:38 AM

castor troy

Posts: 11994
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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The situation becomes hopeless as soon as the Japanese high command throws in the towel. You have to look at it like Hitler, guess it wasn�t really hopeless until very late...

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Post #: 18

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 9:11:39 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 3836
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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Puhis, you are in a situation not so dissimilar from historical.

How does your defensive perometer look like?

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S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 19

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 9:28:24 AM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Puhis, you are in a situation not so dissimilar from historical.

You need to think of it in terms of role playing. The people you are representing in the game are the cabal of militarists who led Japan on to the path of aggression, assassinating anyone who stood in their way. In reality, they were a bunch of moral cowards willing to see millions of their own people die rather than admit they had been wrong. So climb into the "last ditch" and fight to the last drop of other people's blood..., the game itself will tell you when it's over. Until then, claw and scratch for every atoll and devise a new "Victory Plan" every six months...

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 20

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 9:48:51 AM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Puhis, you are in a situation not so dissimilar from historical.

You need to think of it in terms of role playing. The people you are representing in the game are the cabal of militarists who led Japan on to the path of aggression, assassinating anyone who stood in their way. In reality, they were a bunch of moral cowards willing to see millions of their own people die rather than admit they had been wrong. So climb into the "last ditch" and fight to the last drop of other people's blood..., the game itself will tell you when it's over. Until then, claw and scratch for every atoll and devise a new "Victory Plan" every six months...

Yep, something like that. Without such a mindset it does not really make sense to play
Japan anyway...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to mike scholl 1)

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 10:10:43 AM

tigercub

Posts: 1352
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From: chiang mai ,thailand
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The problem is its a GAME that only has 1 side that can be the winner...to a large extent...

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 10:23:59 AM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

The problem is its a GAME that only has 1 side that can be the winner...to a large extent...

Realistically, as in the real war, the Japanese player is unlikely to "WIN" the game. At least in "official terms". But who says "VP's" are the only meaningful measure of victory?

Did you "hold out" past August of 1945? That's a "victory".
Did you keep your economy running to the end? That's a "victory".
Did you inflict greater than historical losses on the Allies? "Victory".

The Japanese player will do far better to set his own goals for achievement than to depend on the opinions of a scenario designer. Dragging the game into "the last ditch" and earning the respect of your foe might be the most satisfying "victory" of all.

(in reply to tigercub)

Post #: 23

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 11:04:01 AM

tigercub

Posts: 1352
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From: chiang mai ,thailand
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with you 100% but only if i fail to get my auto victory mike.

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 11:19:47 AM

FatR

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From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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Whatever floats your boat, Puhis. You are under no obligation to play a game that turned to a chore. If you feel that the situation is hopeless, and there is nothing you can do, concede.

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 25

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 11:38:41 AM

Torplexed

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You need to stagger down into your bunker, proclaim that you will fight until five past midnight, and scream hysterically that the Eastern Front is the biggest bluff since Genghis Khan, and that all your generals and soldiers are swine and cowards.

No--wait. Wrong theater.

(in reply to FatR)

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:15:59 PM

Nomad

Posts: 4368
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From: Northern Rockies
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I should make it clear that Puhis and I are playing a game but it is going very differently that the one described above. I was making my original post as a joke. And I agree, this is a game and Japan can win the game. Japan should not win the war, but there are many ways of looking at a victory for Japan as a game.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 10/21/2010 1:16:46 PM >

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:20:39 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

with you 100% but only if i fail to get my auto victory mike.

Fair enough, "Cub".., fair enough.

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RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:29:36 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Whatever floats your boat, Puhis. You are under no obligation to play a game that turned to a chore. If you feel that the situation is hopeless, and there is nothing you can do, concede.

Actually, I think you ARE under some obligation to play. Your opponent started a 1600+ turn game with you..., not a "Let's play until I don't think I can win anymore" exercise. You owe him a chance to see what he can do with his successes. And you owe yourself a chance to see how well you can deal with adversity.

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 29

RE: JFBs out there: when is situation hopeless? - 10/21/2010 1:44:24 PM

FatR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Actually, I think you ARE under some obligation to play. Your opponent started a 1600+ turn game with you..., not a "Let's play until I don't think I can win anymore" exercise. You owe him a chance to see what he can do with his successes. And you owe yourself a chance to see how well you can deal with adversity.

In the sane world, "I don't think I can win anymore" is a perfectly valid reason for conceding. You know, even in more serious matters than games. That you like to waste your time on a long and boring conclusion of an already-won match, because you don't want a game that forces you to deal with adversity yourself, does not mean that others are obligated to accomodate you.
Now considering the nature of AE, discretion and consideration before deciding that the game is hopeless should be recommended. However, in this case, a Scen 1 game is beyond hopeless, considering the combination of scen 1 generally faciliating much faster than historical Allied advance and obliteration of the Japanese fleet. For Scen 2 there might be a little hope of offering meaningful resistance, but only if the Allied player is really inept at his choice of targets, which I find hard to believe (considering his successes).

< Message edited by FatR -- 10/21/2010 2:19:22 PM >

(in reply to mike scholl 1)

Post #: 30

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