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go 229 is it even possible?

 
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go 229 is it even possible? - 10/20/2010 2:57:31 AM   
bhutnath

 

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I noticed that the introduction date for go 229 is set to 9/45. Would it be possible to get the plane by mid 1944. Against a human player is any later (like 1945) not too late? I am wondering if I should switch to me 262. I remember reading some where on the forum that the number of days needed is sum of months from intro date x 100
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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/20/2010 4:44:59 AM   
Hard Sarge


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sure it is doable, but going to take a lot of work (part of the idea)

would say, much easier vs the AI then a player


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/20/2010 8:00:07 AM   
bhutnath

 

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but what is 'lot of work'? would 10 assembly lines suffice, 20 or 30?

(30 = build nothing but go229, 20 = damn! = 80 engines = fight only every 3rd day, 10 assemblies = 40 engines could do)

one other question -

I remember reading some where on the forum that the axis-allies trashy planes can eventually be upgraded to regular german aircafts. For this to happen, certain threshold of aircraft no. of a type will need to be reached.

What I didn't find is the threshold is for which aricraft? If it is for the like of IAR81 I am screwed.
What is the threshold!?

Thank you for your response.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/20/2010 10:00:59 PM   
Hard Sarge


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the engines are the killer (which in real life they were also)

off the top of my head (and Harley has made changes to the system) but for the 229, you looking at 4 engines a plane, so 10 planes a day, 40 engines a day, you an do it, going to be using a good part of your engine production, and getting all 40 engines to be built is going to be ruff (you don't want to change over a 10/15 size plant to these)

hassle will be, the engines are not relieable, and the frame/parts are only a little better (each of these planes were all but hand made) so getting what you set up each day, will be HARDer then it looks

but, and a big but, that is a sweet plane, the rockets it carry are worth the effert if you can get it !


IIRC, it was 500 planes in stock, or a date being reached (again, IIRC jan or feb of 44)

but really, the idea, goal is to get the Axis Allied into the 109G-2a/G-6a, then move on up from there, it takes a lot of strain off of the LW production


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/21/2010 10:51:32 AM   
Oliver Heindorf


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maybe you should consider the Do 335 instead of the Go 229.

HS : Why four engines for the Go 229 ? To show that the engines were the real killer ? AFAIK the Go 229 had 2 engines.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/21/2010 7:36:55 PM   
pompack


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jet engines cost double

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/22/2010 12:45:19 AM   
Dobey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

maybe you should consider the Do 335 instead of the Go 229.

HS : Why four engines for the Go 229 ? To show that the engines were the real killer ? AFAIK the Go 229 had 2 engines.


Yes it represents both the huge problems in producing the early jets along with their very short lifespan meaning that if the A/C survived for any length of time it would soon need its engines swapped out.

There are also a few other planes that are the same. Not only jets, but also a few of the Italian A/C that historically had serious problems getting enough of their needed engines produced due to a shortage of some component or other.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/22/2010 3:21:36 AM   
Hard Sarge


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yeap, the FW 190C, had a decent future, but engine left was like 10 hours, and it took "rare" metals to build the engines, then the work on the TA 152 was looking as good or better

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/26/2010 4:32:52 PM   
Lanconic

 

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Actually I am playing a game right now where I converted ALL production on turn #1 to Go-229.
My reason was.....I had never seen the plane EVER, and I was curious as to how it would work.

In previous versions of this game, I would have simply used an editor, but for some reason
the data is now encrypted.

So I can say that yes German industry is getting pounded. Yawn =)

I have learned that the early USAFF is simply too weak to KEEP German industry suppressed thru the Winter.
So I pull the vulnerable groups OFF the airbases that are easily reached, and choose to fight only the deep
penetration attempts. After a while.....the Allied player realizes how he is chained to the range of his
escorts, and the range isnt great at the start of the game.


As for hypothetical problems with the design and building of the Go-229....
The plane was never really developed. Very little actual effort was made.
So yeah the existing models were hand built. Doesnt mean to say it would have to stay that way.

The Jumo-004 used steel turbines and they were rated at two sorties.
This is because higher grade Titanium and Tungsten were simply NOT available.
It was use steel or give up. They did the best they could, with what they had.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/26/2010 7:59:01 PM   
bhutnath

 

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Do tell how you find the plane.

I am in a pbem game playing axis in 43 campaign. We have played 30 turns and the industrial damage has jumped up to 11 (total score 22). Allies are scoring a point of damage every day or two. Primarily hitting industries in France. So why should he need to go in deep as there are lot more industries left to blow up in France.

Night bombing is risk free for him as interceptors if lucky will shoot down 1 or two planes! Moon light nights are the worst for me as the bombers more often than not evade interceptors. => hanover and other cities burn in night


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/27/2010 3:25:31 AM   
Dobey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bhutnath

Do tell how you find the plane.

I am in a pbem game playing axis in 43 campaign. We have played 30 turns and the industrial damage has jumped up to 11 (total score 22). Allies are scoring a point of damage every day or two. Primarily hitting industries in France. So why should he need to go in deep as there are lot more industries left to blow up in France.

Night bombing is risk free for him as interceptors if lucky will shoot down 1 or two planes! Moon light nights are the worst for me as the bombers more often than not evade interceptors. => hanover and other cities burn in night




The victory score will never get high enough to win by just bombing France (I think total score for Allies needs to be about 85?). I can assure you that the allies simply do not have the resources in '43 to get strategic damage above about 20 - 25 before it becomes a case of maintaining rather than building score. I find by the time the weather starts closing in in Nov 43 I usually sit around total socre of 35 - 40 with 2 -3 AS, 20 - 25 Strat and 12 - 16 Terror.

Laconic's idea sounds good against the AI, but to research you will need all those engines as well as the airframes. Engines are always a serious bottle neck for Germany. The deep raids to hit these plants might be costly, but there are a few massive ones that are worth it and a sucessful raid will knock them out for 50 -60 days, effectively addind that much time onto his research. I would love a PBEM opponent that used the "Do nothing until I get super-weapons" tactic.

Not sure what's happening with your night intercepts. As allies I loose more than one or two from flak alone over major cities and find moonlite nights more costly that darker nights. Might be the altitude settings you are using or the type of NJ aircraft.


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/27/2010 12:43:19 PM   
Lanconic

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey


quote:

ORIGINAL: bhutnath

Do tell how you find the plane.

I am in a pbem game playing axis in 43 campaign. We have played 30 turns and the industrial damage has jumped up to 11 (total score 22). Allies are scoring a point of damage every day or two. Primarily hitting industries in France. So why should he need to go in deep as there are lot more industries left to blow up in France.

Night bombing is risk free for him as interceptors if lucky will shoot down 1 or two planes! Moon light nights are the worst for me as the bombers more often than not evade interceptors. => hanover and other cities burn in night




The victory score will never get high enough to win by just bombing France (I think total score for Allies needs to be about 85?). I can assure you that the allies simply do not have the resources in '43 to get strategic damage above about 20 - 25 before it becomes a case of maintaining rather than building score. I find by the time the weather starts closing in in Nov 43 I usually sit around total socre of 35 - 40 with 2 -3 AS, 20 - 25 Strat and 12 - 16 Terror.

Laconic's idea sounds good against the AI, but to research you will need all those engines as well as the airframes. Engines are always a serious bottle neck for Germany. The deep raids to hit these plants might be costly, but there are a few massive ones that are worth it and a sucessful raid will knock them out for 50 -60 days, effectively addind that much time onto his research. I would love a PBEM opponent that used the "Do nothing until I get super-weapons" tactic.

Not sure what's happening with your night intercepts. As allies I loose more than one or two from flak alone over major cities and find moonlite nights more costly that darker nights. Might be the altitude settings you are using or the type of NJ aircraft.




There are 189 engine factories total. Not all are online of course. so say 160....160/4 == 40
I am not saying that ANYTHING is worth total conversion, I am saying that I have never seen the plane EVER.

Insofar as 1943 Allied Bombing....I dont agree. There is nothing vital in Italy or France.
In theory the Rum can defend the oilfields.
Yes rubber et al get hammered, and so what?
I am not getting any planes anyway.

I do oppose the deep raids and make sure that he loses as many bombers as I can.
There is nothing he can do if he tried a deep raid with those crap P47

Yeah you gonna tell me that Bomber Command is enough...great, go ahead

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/28/2010 5:21:35 PM   
Lanconic

 

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It is turn 137
1st turn of 1944

No wonder weapons have arrived

All Luft squads are almost full strength
There are no reserves

Score stands at

3
-1
13

Axis dead 726
Allied 3779

BB and Alum are a concern but Winter fixed almost all of Germany
As I expected

Can I keep it that way? Maybe not but I shall try

It will be hard now that he has the escorts he needs.
Very hard


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 10/28/2010 6:32:19 PM   
fochinell

 

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Well, I'm R&Ding the Go229 in small numbers. Shame Swift won't leave me any engines to install in them... I don't expect to see it apper before I lose my PBEM campaign, but the idea of it keeps my morale up in the ruins of the RLM bunker in Berlin.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/2/2010 10:42:16 PM   
bhutnath

 

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If I did my calculations right, with 10 assembly lines with required engine and spares devoted to go 229 the planes may become available May-June 1945. What's left to do by then?

It seems these planes are there as some form of a 'trap' for the German player. In effect not achievable for any results no matter what investment is made in them.

Fool the unsuspecting new player by showing him the wonderful stats, not giving any information on the chances and dates of getting these planes when setting the production (i.e. no info in game) and so all who may not know about ww2 planes are likely to see how much cooler this jet is compared to the me262 and fall for the trap.


they might as well put in the Euro fighter 2000 armed with METEOR and Sidewinder missiles. How does it matter.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/3/2010 2:33:15 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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The Luftwaffe player should focus their efforts on getting the Ta-152H into production.  Managed to do this in May 44 (Me-262 on line the same time) and I can see the Allies (I'm playing both sides) are going to have a rough time.  The 262's endurance is not long enough for it to be the bomber killer one would hope for.  The 152 has the range, ceiling and maneuverability to really hurt the Allied fighters, whose experience and morale levels are suffering as a result.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/14/2010 6:16:41 PM   
Turner


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I agree Nicholas. The FW190D-9 is a good option too but will not suffice in the long run whereas the 152H is likely to last for the duration of the game. It's not a great bomber killer but as a pure fighter I'd argue it's excellent. You can always keep the heavy hitters behind the fighter bases such as the 410s and any 190As you may have. You get the idea.

Currently playing my 2nd game and 2nd '43 campaign. It's early march '44 I have been building the 190A-6 since it became available and have had the D-9 since feb '44. The Ta154 just became available in march '44. About half of my night fighter units are He219s the rest I plan to convert to 154s. Hoping to get the 152H by mid '44. Only jet I'm putting any effort into is the 262 but not expecting it to perform wonders.

If you ask me, jet fighters aren't worth the extra effort. If you aim to win you'll need to hit the allies hard from start and try to win early and for that jets simply won't be available.

Just my €0.02

< Message edited by Turner -- 11/14/2010 6:18:15 PM >


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/15/2010 7:57:12 PM   
Lanconic

 

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Why the TA152H?
and not C?

I find that the C works just fine for most things

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/15/2010 8:18:00 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Why the TA152H?
and not C?

I find that the C works just fine for most things


I don't have any first hand experience with the C model, only because I didn't focus enough engine research for it. It's lower maneuverability rating would indicate to me it will have a harder time surviving. Hopefully I will get them in late summer or fall 1944 so I can see how it works in tandem with the H model.

Engines are the key - and I think I went wrong attempting to get the 262 into production. Would have been better to use those factories to get the Ta 152 H and C models even earlier.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/15/2010 9:47:52 PM   
Turner


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The 152C was to be a jabo, or attack plane in plain english. The A/B models were intended zerstörers but never put in production as proposed in late '43. With up to 9 cannons of which 5 could be 30 mm it would indeed have lived up to the name zerstörer. The 152C with the DB engine represented in many ways what Kurt Tank had been trying to achieve from the beginning, access to the DB production line of fighter engines. In the end though the later versions of the Junkers Jumo powered 190D (D-12, D-13) proved to be faster than the DB powered 152C.

I'd love to see the early ahistorical A/B variants of the 152 ingame to see what impact it may have had on the air war with its very heavy cannon armament. Of course maneuverability suffered but it was still fast and the role was to intercept and destroy 4-engined bombers.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/16/2010 2:31:03 PM   
Erkki

 

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For the sake of realism I will just go for Dora-9 first, and only after first Anton-8s have entered service, in PBEM. Also I think its just as good if not better than Ta 152 H as a fighter at altitudes below 25-ish kilofeet, if not even higher. Any idea if the MVR rating given in the data sheets is approximated average through the altitudes or at certain altitude, or the best/worst?

The jets are probably fairly useless and not least because they are short legged and need, all the ones that are of any worth and still possible to get in production, 4 engines. At least against a human opponent the Me 262 is impossible to, thanks to need for 4 engines and short endurance time, build in sufficient numbers to use as main bomber killer. But then again I have never played the game to D-Day. Do 335 - Fw 190 D-9 combo probably works better, use same engine, can be build more than double the number and come available quicker than Ta 152s and Go 229.

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/17/2010 2:10:27 PM   
Turner


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The thread has sortof derailed and I know this is offtopic but anyway. Did anyone make a chart of type of engine used by aircraft type?

Had not considered the 335/190D combo but you're correct it's a nice deal with the same engine types but I think what throws it off is the service entry dates. The Do335 is very late, probably too late. The 190D can be made available in early '44 but so can the Ta152H, although somewhat more complicated to get into prod because of 152 parts being different from 190.

I'd like to ask also to anyone who may know, perhaps Hard Sarge. Do engines also have a equivalent of service entry date? A date from which the engine can be produced, and no earlier than that date. What I've seen in game, or at least thought I've seen, seem to indicate that engines aren't available before a certain date which imho is reasonable.

This game would be so much fun if it was possible to research customized ahistorical aircraft (engine & airframe combo f ex). I know I know... one can dream eh. It's really good as is anyway.

< Message edited by Turner -- 11/17/2010 2:11:36 PM >


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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/17/2010 6:22:09 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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Here's an engine chart. Sorry I do not recall who did the original work here, but I do not claim credit.

I do not think there is any time restraints on engine research, either when you can start researching or when they appear. They are linked to the aircraft which uses them availability.

Attachment (1)

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RE: go 229 is it even possible? - 11/18/2010 9:07:06 AM   
Turner


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Great info, thanks for sharing!

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