Matrix Games Forums

New Fronts are opening up for Commander: The Great WarCharacters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Deal of the Week: Combat Command Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great WarDeal of the Week Panzer CorpsNew Strategy Titles Join the Family
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Engineers and Shore Parties

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Engineers and Shore Parties Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/9/2010 3:29:35 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
A lot of questions about these so thought it good to make a separate thread so it's easy to point to.

Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.

Shore Party:
Shore Party is a sub-set of Nav Sup. Shore Party devices assist in loading/unloading but do not assist in repairing or rearming. Repair/rearm bases were very far and few between, for both sides, and thus with BigBabes, but both sides recognized an imperative for stevedoring and non-integral lift capability. Thus Shore Partys and a skoosh of code that lets them give an unload bonus to TFs. A Shore Party switch may be set for a Vehicle, such as an LVT-2 Amph Trac; It may be set for a Type = 24 Eng squad, like USA Port Srvc Sq, in which case it may also help build; It may be set for a Type = 23 Squad, like USA Amph Sup Sq.

Check the editor often, and become familiar with all the different kinds of units available. For example:

USMC Pioneer Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Constr Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, No Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Spec Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USN Base Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Port Svc Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts
USA Amph Sup Sq – Squad type – No Build, Yes AV, Yes Shore Party, No Reduce Forts

IJA Shipping Eng Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, Yes Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Cmbt Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, Yes Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20
IJN Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJN Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20

So IJ Const Labor doesn’t 'do' anything and, what’s more, has a larger load cost. This represents the large manual labor component (Chinese/Korean) that results in 1000 man Eng Bns/Rgts without giving much additional capability. Typical IJA Const Bns/Rgts have 32 Const squads (590 ‘men’, 1088 total with the support, etc.), but 16 squads are Const Eng, while 16 are Const Labor. It's a way to have 32 squad (1000 man) Bns/Rgts with half the capability of a corresponding 32 squad Allied unit.

Even though many squad devices don’t ‘do’ anything (and many Eng devices can’t assault), they are still marginally useful (apart from the Eng devices being able to build). Anti-Soft = 8 (typically) so these units may still ‘shoot’ during the pre-assault fire phase. They ‘shoot’ better than the default firepower of a 251 Eng or 252 Sup device, so that’s something.

Different load costs also allow Const Bns/Rgts to be tailored as to troop count and, therefore, loadability and troop population on atolls and small islands.


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes
Post #: 1
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/9/2010 7:48:15 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
IJA Shipping Eng Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, Yes Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Cmbt Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, Yes AV, Yes Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJA Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20
IJN Const Eng Sq – Eng type – Yes Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 17
IJN Const Labor Sq – Squad type – No Build, No AV, No Reduce Forts, No Shore Party, LC = 20

So IJ Const Labor doesn’t 'do' anything and, what’s more, has a larger load cost. This represents the large manual labor component (Chinese/Korean) that results in 1000 man Eng Bns/Rgts without giving much additional capability. Typical IJA Const Bns/Rgts have 32 Const squads (590 ‘men’, 1088 total with the support, etc.), but 16 squads are Const Eng, while 16 are Const Labor. It's a way to have 32 squad (1000 man) Bns/Rgts with half the capability of a corresponding 32 squad Allied unit.
Even though many squad devices don’t ‘do’ anything (and many Eng devices can’t assault), they are still marginally useful (apart from the Eng devices being able to build). Anti-Soft = 8 (typically) so these units may still ‘shoot’ during the pre-assault fire phase. They ‘shoot’ better than the default firepower of a 251 Eng or 252 Sup device, so that’s something.

Different load costs also allow Const Bns/Rgts to be tailored as to troop count and, therefore, loadability and troop population on atolls and small islands.

JWE -

Took me several readings to get the concept - makes sense now, very much appreciate this new thread.

Many years ago, while serving on-board the USS Midway (CVA - 41), we underwent a dry dock period in Yokosuka Japan (1973 IIRC). I developed an acquaintance with one of the Japanese Foreman, who, as it turned out, was in the IJA during the war. He would occasionally answer my questions about the tunnels that were dug at Yokosuka during the war. Looking back, I have a much better understanding of his references to the large amount of Korean Laborers that were used in excavating the tunnels. As I recall, he alluded to the need to periodically "replace" a group of workers with a new batch from Korea. Reading your description of the inefficiencies of a Const Eng Squad brought those conversations to mind.

Just a little bit of history -

Mac


< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 10/9/2010 8:11:42 PM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 2
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/9/2010 10:41:16 PM   
PresterJohn


Posts: 353
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline
Thanks for your reply(s) and information. Much appreciated.

Steve

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 3
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 1:44:40 PM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 2032
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
JWE,

Thanks.

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to PresterJohn)
Post #: 4
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 4:18:23 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Here’s a couple other ways that different squad types can mix and match to give tailored capability. USN SeaBees were special kinds of folks, and there were two (actually 3 or more) different kinds of SeaBees: the general USN Constr Bns, and the Special Constr Bns.

SeaBees liked to build things but also don’t mind shooting at people (or burying bad guy bunkers with bulldozers), yet they aren’t “Combt” Engs. So a SeaBee Bn is a 50/50 mix of type 251 Engineer squads and USN Constr Eng Squads. Both these types can build, so a SeaBee Bn has 30 “build capable” squads, plus 9 Eng Veh. The type 251 Engs don’t assault, but the USN Constr Eng Squads do. So a SeaBee Bn is about half as combat capable as a true “Cmbt Eng” unit, but definitely capable enough to earn its keep in an assault landing. Besides which it is hugely “build” capable (effectively 57 squads worth, when you count the Eng Vehs).

Similarly, the USN Special Constr Bns had multiple capabilities; mainly stevedores, but also some light ship maintenance/repair, built docks, dredged harbors, etc. So they are a mix of 21 Spec Eng Sqds (with Shore Party flags set) and 12 type 255 NavSup squads. The 21 Eng squads can build, the 12 NavSup can’t. The 12 NavSup squads can assist ship repair, the 21 Spec Eng Sqds can't. All 33 can assist load/unload. None can assault. So the capability is carefully tailored through the % mix.

Base and Port Maintenance Bns have similar capability mixes through the % mix of Base Eng Sqds, 251 Engineers, NavSup. The Army has similar capability mixes for its Avn Eng Bns, Constr Eng Bns, Port Constr Eng Bns, Boat&Shore Bns, using a % mix of Constr Eng Sqds, 251 Engineers, Port Svc Sqds, Amph Support Sqds, and NavSup.

So basically, If the unit is called a “Constr” Bn/Rgt, it’s main capability is to build.
If a unit is called a “Port” Bn/Rgt, its main capability is load/unload, second is build.
If a unit is called a “Maint” Bn/Rgt, it does a bit of everything, build, load, NavSup, AvSup; Base Maint does more AvSup than NavSup, Port Maint does more NavSup than AvSup.

Hope all that made sense – I get carried away some times.


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 5
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 4:28:21 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14497
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
Sweet and very clear.



(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 6
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 4:33:35 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3864
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
Very helpful. Thx

_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 7
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 6:23:48 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


SeaBees liked to build things but also don’t mind shooting at people (or burying bad guy bunkers with bulldozers)

So a SeaBee Bn is about half as combat capable as a true “Cmbt Eng” unit, but definitely capable enough to earn its keep in an assault landing. Besides which it is hugely “build” capable (effectively 57 squads worth, when you count the Eng Vehs).



Wait just a minute John. Just to set the record straight, I happen to know some history and that John Wayne was a Fighting SeaBee and kicked the wholly crap out of the enemy. I put them on the level of the Rangers, Navy Seals, Green Bret, and all the other Special Forces.

The Internet is full of sites that attest to this.





(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 8
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 7:56:55 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Here’s a couple other ways that different squad types can mix and match to give tailored capability. USN SeaBees were special kinds of folks, and there were two (actually 3 or more) different kinds of SeaBees: the general USN Constr Bns, and the Special Constr Bns.

SeaBees liked to build things but also don’t mind shooting at people (or burying bad guy bunkers with bulldozers), yet they aren’t “Combt” Engs. So a SeaBee Bn is a 50/50 mix of type 251 Engineer squads and USN Constr Eng Squads. Both these types can build, so a SeaBee Bn has 30 “build capable” squads, plus 9 Eng Veh. The type 251 Engs don’t assault, but the USN Constr Eng Squads do. So a SeaBee Bn is about half as combat capable as a true “Cmbt Eng” unit, but definitely capable enough to earn its keep in an assault landing. Besides which it is hugely “build” capable (effectively 57 squads worth, when you count the Eng Vehs).

Similarly, the USN Special Constr Bns had multiple capabilities; mainly stevedores, but also some light ship maintenance/repair, built docks, dredged harbors, etc. So they are a mix of 21 Spec Eng Sqds (with Shore Party flags set) and 12 type 255 NavSup squads. The 21 Eng squads can build, the 12 NavSup can’t. The 12 NavSup squads can assist ship repair, the 21 Spec Eng Sqds can't. All 33 can assist load/unload. None can assault. So the capability is carefully tailored through the % mix.

Base and Port Maintenance Bns have similar capability mixes through the % mix of Base Eng Sqds, 251 Engineers, NavSup. The Army has similar capability mixes for its Avn Eng Bns, Constr Eng Bns, Port Constr Eng Bns, Boat&Shore Bns, using a % mix of Constr Eng Sqds, 251 Engineers, Port Svc Sqds, Amph Support Sqds, and NavSup.

So basically, If the unit is called a “Constr” Bn/Rgt, it’s main capability is to build.
If a unit is called a “Port” Bn/Rgt, its main capability is load/unload, second is build.
If a unit is called a “Maint” Bn/Rgt, it does a bit of everything, build, load, NavSup, AvSup; Base Maint does more AvSup than NavSup, Port Maint does more NavSup than AvSup.

Hope all that made sense – I get carried away some times.



No, Sir, you do not get carried away.

I submit that while the DBB Team, who has spent hours of research, editing and work on this mod and are thus intimately familiar with the concepts involved, there are some of us who may not get the designer's intent or see the whole picture (that's usually me...<grin>).

Your comments and explanations are very helpful, and give us a better understanding of the "why" and "where" of the significant changes that have been implemented in DBB mod.

Now, as I have been told that you, JWE, are naturally reticent and retiring (I think it was Buck or Don), let me encourage you to continue to speak out - don't be shy......

Mac


< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 10/10/2010 7:57:10 PM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 9
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 8:04:30 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan



Now, as I have been told that you, JWE, are naturally reticent and retiring (I think it was Buck or Don), let me encourage you to continue to speak out - don't be shy......

Mac



Sure wasn't me, name calling will get you banned around here.

Buck

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 10
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 9:57:46 PM   
SvenNyqvist

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 7/13/2007
Status: offline
What is AV??

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 11
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 10:05:29 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14497
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SvenNyqvist

What is AV??


Two answers.

1) When you see it in the manual or on screen when in-game (mouse-overs and such), AV means air support - the ground support troops you need to repair/maintain airplanes and keep them flying.

2) Here, and what is the most natural use of AV, means Assault Value. In the manual and in-game they use the abbreviation AS.

AV is more natural for Assault Value, so why they originally used AV for ground support guys and AS for Assault Value is beyond me. Just keep in mind when you see AV that the context will tell which way the term is being used.

(in reply to SvenNyqvist)
Post #: 12
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/10/2010 10:10:17 PM   
SvenNyqvist

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 7/13/2007
Status: offline
Thanks

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 13
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/12/2010 9:01:17 AM   
SvenNyqvist

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 7/13/2007
Status: offline
I have a further question on the devices in slot 250 - 255 (Eng vehicles, Engineers, Support, Motorized Support, Av Support and Naval Support). Is there any hardcoding involved? I do not see for example how the Engineer Vehicles can build anything. They however seem to help.

Sven

(in reply to SvenNyqvist)
Post #: 14
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/12/2010 12:15:48 PM   
michaelm


Posts: 9057
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SvenNyqvist

I have a further question on the devices in slot 250 - 255 (Eng vehicles, Engineers, Support, Motorized Support, Av Support and Naval Support). Is there any hardcoding involved? I do not see for example how the Engineer Vehicles can build anything. They however seem to help.

Sven


These devices have special meaning within the code.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to SvenNyqvist)
Post #: 15
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 10/12/2010 3:24:15 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
quote:

ORIGINAL: SvenNyqvist
I have a further question on the devices in slot 250 - 255 (Eng vehicles, Engineers, Support, Motorized Support, Av Support and Naval Support). Is there any hardcoding involved? I do not see for example how the Engineer Vehicles can build anything. They however seem to help.

Sven

These devices have special meaning within the code.

As michaelm says, lots of hardcoding for those devices.

Look at Section 8.1.3 – Engineers, in the manual. All “engineer” squads and “vehicles” can construct and repair base facilities. An Engineer Vehicle is equivalent to 3x Engineer squads. Also look at Section 9.1 – Base Information Screen, for further info. It’s a good starting point.

This is for stock. DaBabes is the same but has “additional” things going on, but one should understand the basics so that our whacko stuff is put in proper context.


< Message edited by JWE -- 10/12/2010 3:25:48 PM >


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 16
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/28/2012 6:32:56 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Shore Party:
Shore Party is a sub-set of Nav Sup. Shore Party devices assist in loading/unloading but do not assist in repairing or rearming. Repair/rearm bases were very far and few between, for both sides, and thus with BigBabes, but both sides recognized an imperative for stevedoring and non-integral lift capability. Thus Shore Partys and a skoosh of code that lets them give an unload bonus to TFs.



This bonus - is it equal in magnitude to that of generic naval support?

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 17
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/28/2012 7:28:42 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
This bonus - is it equal in magnitude to that of generic naval support?

No.

It provides load/unload support at the same rate as equivalent SavSup squads. But it does nothing else. It does not support repair. It does not support rearm. It is not extended by action of an appropriate HQ unit. It does not support anything except load/unload in the hex where it is at. And the AI doesn't recognize it, so the AI doesn't (can't) use it.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 18
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/29/2012 1:46:02 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
This bonus - is it equal in magnitude to that of generic naval support?

No.

It provides load/unload support at the same rate as equivalent SavSup squads. But it does nothing else. It does not support repair. It does not support rearm. It is not extended by action of an appropriate HQ unit. It does not support anything except load/unload in the hex where it is at. And the AI doesn't recognize it, so the AI doesn't (can't) use it.


SavSup? or NavSup?

I assume NavSup.

So Shore Parties' unload bonus is equal in magnitude to that of Naval Support. And that's all they do - unload. Got it.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 19
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/29/2012 5:06:28 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
This bonus - is it equal in magnitude to that of generic naval support?

No.

It provides load/unload support at the same rate as equivalent SavSup squads. But it does nothing else. It does not support repair. It does not support rearm. It is not extended by action of an appropriate HQ unit. It does not support anything except load/unload in the hex where it is at. And the AI doesn't recognize it, so the AI doesn't (can't) use it.


SavSup? or NavSup?

I assume NavSup.

So Shore Parties' unload bonus is equal in magnitude to that of Naval Support. And that's all they do - unload. Got it.


Icedawg -

Stock AE Naval Support both rearmed / repaired and assisted in loading / unloading. Babes has separated the rearm / repair support from the "load / unload" aspect. Shore Party - separately tagged to a device (AE Game editor, device menu) represents stevedores and other manpower used strictly to help load / unload.

In Stock AE, Naval Support is more common. In Babes, Naval support is few and far between - and should be protected and based with care. Shore Party is more common, and because separate, can be used closer to the front lines, thus gives the player more flexibility.

In Babes, a Shore Party tagged device i.e. "IJN Construction Labor Squad" (assists load/unload only) is part of the "2nd Naval Construction Battalion, Engineer" which also includes "IJN Construction Engineering Squad" devices (that build, but do not help load / unload). 2nd Nav Const Bn is currently at Miri, enlarging the airfield there. The engineers expand the airfield, the Labor Squad devices help unload the tons of supply needed to keep the engineers in business - in a small size two port.

The 3rd Fleet Naval HQ, with x90 Naval Support devices, is located at Takao, Formosa - a size four port - and major staging base. 90 Naval support in a size four port can rearm a good range of shipborne weapons (x5 per Nav Support Squad), in addition to providing repair points in conjunction with the port.

Hope that this helps.

I think I have it right <grin>

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 5/29/2012 5:09:37 AM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 20
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/29/2012 12:24:17 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
This bonus - is it equal in magnitude to that of generic naval support?

No.

It provides load/unload support at the same rate as equivalent SavSup squads. But it does nothing else. It does not support repair. It does not support rearm. It is not extended by action of an appropriate HQ unit. It does not support anything except load/unload in the hex where it is at. And the AI doesn't recognize it, so the AI doesn't (can't) use it.


SavSup? or NavSup?

I assume NavSup.

So Shore Parties' unload bonus is equal in magnitude to that of Naval Support. And that's all they do - unload. Got it.


Icedawg -

Stock AE Naval Support both rearmed / repaired and assisted in loading / unloading. Babes has separated the rearm / repair support from the "load / unload" aspect. Shore Party - separately tagged to a device (AE Game editor, device menu) represents stevedores and other manpower used strictly to help load / unload.

In Stock AE, Naval Support is more common. In Babes, Naval support is few and far between - and should be protected and based with care. Shore Party is more common, and because separate, can be used closer to the front lines, thus gives the player more flexibility.

In Babes, a Shore Party tagged device i.e. "IJN Construction Labor Squad" (assists load/unload only) is part of the "2nd Naval Construction Battalion, Engineer" which also includes "IJN Construction Engineering Squad" devices (that build, but do not help load / unload). 2nd Nav Const Bn is currently at Miri, enlarging the airfield there. The engineers expand the airfield, the Labor Squad devices help unload the tons of supply needed to keep the engineers in business - in a small size two port.

The 3rd Fleet Naval HQ, with x90 Naval Support devices, is located at Takao, Formosa - a size four port - and major staging base. 90 Naval support in a size four port can rearm a good range of shipborne weapons (x5 per Nav Support Squad), in addition to providing repair points in conjunction with the port.

Hope that this helps.

I think I have it right <grin>

Mac


Thanks for the confirmation on shore parties' sole ability - unloading ships.

But are you sure about the construction labor squads? The OP says they don't have shore party capability. Therefore, I would assume they don't help unload. Accordin to the OP, all they do is sit there taking up space and consuming supplies. Sounds like my wife's description of me sometimes!

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 21
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 5/30/2012 7:56:15 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
Icedawg -

You are absolutely correct. Babes Device 717 "IJN Construction Labor Squad" is not Shore Party tagged in stock Babes. In my mod, I tagged it as Shore Party capable. Forgot to mention that... <sigh>

The ability to tag devices as shore party from the AE Editor Device menu is just another awesome tool to reflect personal preferences.

Thank You for catching my mistake, and am so glad that you are giving Babes a spin!

Mac



_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 22
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 6/1/2012 6:45:51 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Hi Mac. You have always been so gracious about appreciating the Babes mods that I almost hate to do this, but ... need to clarify the philosophy a teensy bit, but you, of all people, deserve to get it.

Shore Party switches are set for component squads of certain specific kinds of units. To have an SP switch, the squad (device) needs to be part of a unit that has an integral component of barges (Japanese) or lighters/LCxx (Allied). The SP switch denotes more a "boat" component. So IJA Shipping Eng, and IJN Port Support squads represent the capabilities of their integral Daihatsus rather than their manpower/skill content. Same with the Allies; you got some Seabee stevedores in the Spec Bns, but just look at all the lighters in the TO&E. Much like Marine (and laterly Army) AmphTrac units. They ain't tanks, they are transport. So the LVT-1s are SP flagged, because they were and because they did.

SP is a switch for specific unit types. It's for "boys with boats", not crookt bakt stevedores. Your IJN (or whatever) Construction Labor squad is a horde of Chinese/Korean/Indonesian/Melanesian conscript coolies with shovels. Not goodnik for a SP switch. Can (should) substitute a proportion of SP tagged devices, or add a platoon of SP tagged devices. That's how Japan did it. The whole idea is that these puppys were limited; one must deploy them carefully.

Hope I didn't rain on your parade too badly; there's a break in the clouds coming, and Mr Sun is ready to shine.

Ciao. John

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 23
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 6/1/2012 6:47:51 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6576
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
oops

< Message edited by JWE -- 6/1/2012 6:48:16 PM >


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 24
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 6/1/2012 8:53:22 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi Mac. You have always been so gracious about appreciating the Babes mods that I almost hate to do this, but ... need to clarify the philosophy a teensy bit, but you, of all people, deserve to get it.

Shore Party switches are set for component squads of certain specific kinds of units. To have an SP switch, the squad (device) needs to be part of a unit that has an integral component of barges (Japanese) or lighters/LCxx (Allied). The SP switch denotes more a "boat" component. So IJA Shipping Eng, and IJN Port Support squads represent the capabilities of their integral Daihatsus rather than their manpower/skill content. Same with the Allies; you got some Seabee stevedores in the Spec Bns, but just look at all the lighters in the TO&E. Much like Marine (and laterly Army) AmphTrac units. They ain't tanks, they are transport. So the LVT-1s are SP flagged, because they were and because they did.

SP is a switch for specific unit types. It's for "boys with boats", not crookt bakt stevedores. Your IJN (or whatever) Construction Labor squad is a horde of Chinese/Korean/Indonesian/Melanesian conscript coolies with shovels. Not goodnik for a SP switch. Can (should) substitute a proportion of SP tagged devices, or add a platoon of SP tagged devices. That's how Japan did it. The whole idea is that these puppys were limited; one must deploy them carefully.

Hope I didn't rain on your parade too badly; there's a break in the clouds coming, and Mr Sun is ready to shine.

Ciao. John


John -

Thank You for the clarification; this makes sense - and I am loving it!

There is so much depth and more to learn, I really appreciate your guidance and help Sir!

Edit: JWE - sat for a moment and carefully reread (several times) your explanation and thought about what you were trying to communicate. I think I got it, and will take care to use the tag as the Babes Team philosophy intended. The "barges and lighters/LCxx" concept is crystal clear; I was focused on the "more laborers pier side" view and missed the larger concept. So ix-nay on my enthusiastic (but uninformed <sigh>) ShP tagging of the unwashed masses...

What an awesome game and mod. And this is just the tip of the iceberg... <grin>

Mac


< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 6/1/2012 11:07:36 PM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 25
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 7/24/2012 12:07:32 AM   
Gridley380


Posts: 245
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
So the USN Special Engineer and Base Engineer squads are identical? (Both Y,N,Y,N)

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 26
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 7/30/2012 6:13:49 PM   
Gridley380


Posts: 245
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
2nd question: are US Army Construction Engineers (found in EABs and Construction Regiments) the same as USN Construction Engineers?

(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 27
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 3/2/2013 5:22:01 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1272
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline
What determines whether a unit can reduce fortifications, is it the Type = Engineer and the anti-armor at a certain value~25?

_____________________________


(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 28
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 3/3/2013 1:34:52 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1221
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
Original -

Skyros:

What determines whether a unit can reduce fortifications, is it the Type = Engineer and the anti-armor at a certain value~25?


Skyros -

Attached is a Microsoft Word document that I made to help me understand how the differing Babes Shore Party and Engineering devices work and interact.

I think I have it right - if not, Gents; please correct me.

Hope this helps. Babes - in all it's versions, is an awesome Mod and well worth the effort.

Mac



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 3/3/2013 3:44:33 AM >


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 29
RE: Engineers and Shore Parties - 3/3/2013 1:54:01 AM   
Skyros


Posts: 1272
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline
Thanks Mac, I want to make a Babes Scenario my next game.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Engineers and Shore Parties Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.118