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RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War!

 
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RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 8:26:16 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Also, when we talked about the bomber rule, you suggested that B-17s were there as "anti-shipping" not strategic bombing. I don't think that's correct. I was re-reading Arnold's biography "Global reach" and a couple of books of military thought of the period. B-17's were sold to a pasifist public as a plane that "could defend our shores", but Arnold and other accolytes of Billy Mitchell knew that bombing cities was what it was all about. (Sure , if you could steal some money from the Navy , that would be a good thing too!). The 1st, bases for B-29's were China, in Mid 1944. To bomb Japan. And the Bombers sent to China in 1943 were bombing Chineese and Vietnamese cities. So we might want to re-think this. I know what you really want is no bombing Palemburg and DEI oil centers. But in essence , your calling no strategic bombing worldwide.

So what is your counter proposal then, Steve?

I'm not sure that your examples are in violation of this proposed HR, with the exception of SB in China, circa 1943. Bomb anything you want anywhere in 1944 *or* bomb anything outside of China (even FROM China if you desire) in 1943.

Trust me, eliminating SB in China, circa 1943, is a boon to the Allies moreso than the Japanese. But, if you want all Chinese national RESOURCE, LIGHT INDUSTRY, HEAVY INDUSTRY to be put to the torch effective January 1, 1943, I guess I'm game.

I would propose that it's not worth it to you-the Allied player-to get in a few desultory shots at damaging Palembang, Balikpapan or Soerbaja before being kicked out of the DEI (and range) in exchange for an open IJAA hand in China strategic bombing from day one. Ask Canoerebel about that for more thoughts...

As far as your access to SB Japanese-held resource centers, you won't have any in range (except Magwe) in 1943 if we're doing our job.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 9/14/2010 8:37:39 PM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 8:54:50 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
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From: Apex, NC, USA
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Dag!  I figured both of you would already be cool with these HR's since you used them before.  

I understand that having Manila pounded for 2 days may be a bit much, so I can see having to adjust that one.  I've never quite understood the rationale behind limiting strategic bombing.  It seems to me that the way to limit it early is by providing fighter cover at the target.  The Allies don't have very many 4E's to spare in '42. 

The strato-sweeps do seem to be an issue that could require a HR.  From the bit I've read, there are counters for that as well, by using layered CAP.  I don't have any objections to using any of these HR's as long as I'm clear on what they mean.  Andre, your earlier answers to my questions were very clear, thanks.  I guess I tend to be a minimalist at heart regarding HR's, but I'll go along with whatever is decided.  I just wanted to toss in my inexperienced two cents.


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 32
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 8:55:46 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8192
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Who's playing this game?

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Post #: 33
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:02:28 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Dag!  I figured both of you would already be cool with these HR's since you used them before.  

I understand that having Manila pounded for 2 days may be a bit much, so I can see having to adjust that one.  I've never quite understood the rationale behind limiting strategic bombing.  It seems to me that the way to limit it early is by providing fighter cover at the target.  The Allies don't have very many 4E's to spare in '42. 

The strato-sweeps do seem to be an issue that could require a HR.  From the bit I've read, there are counters for that as well, by using layered CAP.  I don't have any objections to using any of these HR's as long as I'm clear on what they mean.  Andre, your earlier answers to my questions were very clear, thanks.  I guess I tend to be a minimalist at heart regarding HR's, but I'll go along with whatever is decided.  I just wanted to toss in my inexperienced two cents.


Hiya Mike,

I'm the same way. Not a fan of HRs, but they tend to avert a reversion to the lowest common denominator.

The reason for HRs concerning SB in China is to save the Chinese from having all of their resource centers targetted for early destruction. No resource centers, no HI, no LI=no Chinese supply. Having no Chinese supply early in this game will bork this theatre and make the Chinese even more useless than they already are.

Think you'll be able to get sufficient fighter cover on site in China in the midst of a concerted IJAAF strategic bombing campaign? You may want to read Canoerebel v. Miller's AAR on this.

So-y'all have heard my bit. I'll go either way, whichever the majority prefers.

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Post #: 34
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:02:44 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Who's playing this game?

No one yet.

_____________________________


(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 35
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:06:16 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Also, when we talked about the bomber rule, you suggested that B-17s were there as "anti-shipping" not strategic bombing. I don't think that's correct. I was re-reading Arnold's biography "Global reach" and a couple of books of military thought of the period. B-17's were sold to a pasifist public as a plane that "could defend our shores", but Arnold and other accolytes of Billy Mitchell knew that bombing cities was what it was all about. (Sure , if you could steal some money from the Navy , that would be a good thing too!). The 1st, bases for B-29's were China, in Mid 1944. To bomb Japan. And the Bombers sent to China in 1943 were bombing Chineese and Vietnamese cities. So we might want to re-think this. I know what you really want is no bombing Palemburg and DEI oil centers. But in essence , your calling no strategic bombing worldwide.

So what is your counter proposal then, Steve?

I'm not sure that your examples are in violation of this proposed HR, with the exception of SB in China, circa 1943. Bomb anything you want anywhere in 1944 *or* bomb anything outside of China (even FROM China if you desire) in 1943.

Trust me, eliminating SB in China, circa 1943, is a boon to the Allies moreso than the Japanese. But, if you want all Chinese national RESOURCE, LIGHT INDUSTRY, HEAVY INDUSTRY to be put to the torch effective January 1, 1943, I guess I'm game.

I would propose that it's not worth it to you-the Allied player-to get in a few desultory shots at damaging Palembang, Balikpapan or Soerbaja before being kicked out of the DEI (and range) in exchange for an open IJAA hand in China strategic bombing from day one. Ask Canoerebel about that for more thoughts...

As far as your access to SB Japanese-held resource centers, you won't have any in range (except Magwe) in 1943 if we're doing our job.



My point is, was and always will be, the only two reasons for house rules are 1) one player is less competant than another (one hand behind the back or handicapping as you would) and 2) there is a flaw within the game and the house rule is supposed to compensate it.


IT SOUNDS easy to bomb from China. The 20th Air Force thought it would be, but there is that little supply problem. It takes lots of supply to keep bombers bombing.Japan bombed a few Chinese cities, but gave it up. Why? Maybe for the same reason the USAAF did?

My proposal is what I said before. Ask the people who built the game. What rules do they use. What flaws will be fixed next game. Quite simply , let's define the problem before we try to fix it. There might not be a problem. It might have been fixed, or maybe it will be shortly. I simply don't like house rules without a reason. That's to much like the government!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

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Post #: 36
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:08:35 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Ask the people who built the game. What rules do they use. What flaws will be fixed next game. Quite simply , let's define the problem before we try to fix it.

Will you please get in contact with them and let us know what they identify as still being 'deeply flawed' enough for a HR?


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Post #: 37
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:08:59 PM   
AW1Steve


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Frankly guys, I don't care. I'll sign off on whatever is necessary to satisfy you all. But I'll raise my objections now, and poke holes in them now,and then shut up about it once we start. In other words, I'll do my bitching now, not when were playing.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 38
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:09:43 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Frankly guys, I don't care. I'll sign off on whatever is necessary to satisfy you all. But I'll raise my objections now, and poke holes in them now,and then shut up about it once we start. In other words, I'll do my bitching now, not when were playing.

No way! That approach certainly won't work for me!

_____________________________


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Post #: 39
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:10:23 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
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From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Ask the people who built the game. What rules do they use. What flaws will be fixed next game. Quite simply , let's define the problem before we try to fix it.

Will you please get in contact with them and let us know what they identify as still being 'deeply flawed' enough for a HR?




OK. Who do you recommend? Mike said he had an email to someone about the next patch...who is it? Point me in the right direction and I'll hunt!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 40
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:10:39 PM   
Mynok


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The Japanese do not have a major supply problem in China. They can bomb China into the stone age if they choose. It's less about stopping Allied bombing than Japanese destruction of China.

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Post #: 41
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:11:26 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Who's playing this game?


The poultry herder and I vs Steve and USS

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Post #: 42
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:11:36 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Who's playing this game?

No one yet.


We're in the pre-war "pick a fight" stage. Steve and I are the Allies and CB and Mynok are the Japanese. Trying to hash out all the settings/HR's/etc that we are going to use.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 43
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:11:51 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
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From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Frankly guys, I don't care. I'll sign off on whatever is necessary to satisfy you all. But I'll raise my objections now, and poke holes in them now,and then shut up about it once we start. In other words, I'll do my bitching now, not when were playing.

No way! That approach certainly won't work for me!



TOUGH! Suck it up! Then maybe you'll be ChickenMAN instead of Chickenboy!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 44
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:12:44 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The Japanese do not have a major supply problem in China. They can bomb China into the stone age if they choose. It's less about stopping Allied bombing than Japanese destruction of China.

SHHH!!!

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RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:12:58 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Ask the people who built the game. What rules do they use. What flaws will be fixed next game. Quite simply , let's define the problem before we try to fix it.

Will you please get in contact with them and let us know what they identify as still being 'deeply flawed' enough for a HR?




OK. Who do you recommend? Mike said he had an email to someone about the next patch...who is it? Point me in the right direction and I'll hunt!


I PM'ed MichaelM to ask about the DB patch, since he's the only person I've seen mention it so far...

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 46
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:13:34 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The Japanese do not have a major supply problem in China. They can bomb China into the stone age if they choose. It's less about stopping Allied bombing than Japanese destruction of China.



Then that would seem to me to be the inaccurracy , the flaw as it were. Unless the Japanese had a specific reason NOT to bomb China. MORALITY perhaps? Naw.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 47
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:14:35 PM   
USS America


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From: Apex, NC, USA
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I think AW1 and CB may have already started the shooting.  

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 48
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:14:57 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
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From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Who's playing this game?

No one yet.


We're in the pre-war "pick a fight" stage. Steve and I are the Allies and CB and Mynok are the Japanese. Trying to hash out all the settings/HR's/etc that we are going to use.



We're fighting the "pre-game" war to fight the war. And I think that I just moved into the "Designated A$$hole" position!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 49
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:16:09 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Ask the people who built the game. What rules do they use. What flaws will be fixed next game. Quite simply , let's define the problem before we try to fix it.

Will you please get in contact with them and let us know what they identify as still being 'deeply flawed' enough for a HR?




OK. Who do you recommend? Mike said he had an email to someone about the next patch...who is it? Point me in the right direction and I'll hunt!


I PM'ed MichaelM to ask about the DB patch, since he's the only person I've seen mention it so far...



Do you think Joe Wilkinson might be able to steer us towards someone?

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 50
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:16:44 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
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From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
I gotta go. Time to re-load .

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 51
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:17:27 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
MORALITY perhaps? Naw.

Pffft...hell no.

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Post #: 52
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:18:24 PM   
scott1964


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Allies do have a supply problem. In a not to distant past I have serious supply problems in China. I could not get any supply together. Might be because of the Japanese steam rolling I encountered.

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Post #: 53
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:22:46 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
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From: Apex, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The Japanese do not have a major supply problem in China. They can bomb China into the stone age if they choose. It's less about stopping Allied bombing than Japanese destruction of China.



Then that would seem to me to be the inaccurracy , the flaw as it were. Unless the Japanese had a specific reason NOT to bomb China. MORALITY perhaps? Naw.


I think the reason they did not bomb industry in China (very much) was that the historical situation was much more of a quagmire than the game is able to represent. The game is awesome, but almost everyone would agree that the China theater is one of the weaker areas.

I'll throw this out to chew on. Could we consider our own "quiet China" approach? Basically, leave China alone. Does this give one side or the other a significant advantage? I'll admit, it is the area of the game that I enjoy the least, but since it's the area I understand the least, I can't say what impact this could or would have on the game as we play it out. As I sit here and type, I think about this more, and it goes against my instincts. I'm a "play the game" type of guy. I appreciate that the proposed SB HR benefits the Allies a good bit. I have no problem with it.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 54
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:22:56 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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U guys want input on HRs or is this thread so u can hash it out between ya?
Read = other ppls HRs and reason behind them.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/14/2010 9:24:56 PM >

(in reply to scott1964)
Post #: 55
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:24:37 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Who's playing this game?

No one yet.


We're in the pre-war "pick a fight" stage. Steve and I are the Allies and CB and Mynok are the Japanese. Trying to hash out all the settings/HR's/etc that we are going to use.



We're fighting the "pre-game" war to fight the war. And I think that I just moved into the "Designated A$$hole" position!


Not at all. Without discussion, there can be no agreement. We all need to be happy going into this long term, four way relationship.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 56
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:32:06 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The Japanese do not have a major supply problem in China. They can bomb China into the stone age if they choose. It's less about stopping Allied bombing than Japanese destruction of China.



Then that would seem to me to be the inaccurracy , the flaw as it were. Unless the Japanese had a specific reason NOT to bomb China. MORALITY perhaps? Naw.


I think the reason they did not bomb industry in China (very much) was that the historical situation was much more of a quagmire than the game is able to represent. The game is awesome, but almost everyone would agree that the China theater is one of the weaker areas.

I'll throw this out to chew on. Could we consider our own "quiet China" approach? Basically, leave China alone. Does this give one side or the other a significant advantage? I'll admit, it is the area of the game that I enjoy the least, but since it's the area I understand the least, I can't say what impact this could or would have on the game as we play it out. As I sit here and type, I think about this more, and it goes against my instincts. I'm a "play the game" type of guy. I appreciate that the proposed SB HR benefits the Allies a good bit. I have no problem with it.



Works for me! I despise China! And the land warfare model in general!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 57
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:34:53 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18242
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
Could we consider our own "quiet China" approach? Basically, leave China alone.

Naw...


_____________________________


(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 58
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:35:45 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

U guys want input on HRs or is this thread so u can hash it out between ya?
Read = other ppls HRs and reason behind them.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




Rasmus, your input would be very welcome. Then, we'll continue to hash it out.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 59
RE: Oh no! This could lead to a Thread War! - 9/14/2010 9:36:36 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16187
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
Could we consider our own "quiet China" approach? Basically, leave China alone.

Naw...



I talked myself out of that idea by the time I finished typing.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 60
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